Consensus opinion on Doing and taking 'time out'?

[Buddy]

I don't really go out very often and I don't do much in the way of dissociation, like watching movies or listening to music. I think the fact that I was away from the forum for so long gave me a sense of needing to make up for wasted time, and that's what this year has been all about.

I have enough spare time to keep up with the forum, sott, transcribe, detox etc. etc. but I'm starting to feel, I don't know, a bit flat? As much as I disliked having to work away every weekend, since that finished in November I've just gone to the school where I teach, come home and gotten on the computer. On the one hand, I feel like I should just be able work constantly - I want to work constantly. I don't want to have to take time out, like 'me time' or something: I figure I've had enough 'me time' in my life and picking up a guitar or watching a movie or going away somewhere for the day is just wasting time.

But, I think I'm starting to feel it? I know that being alone is bad for one's health - emotionally, physically and psychologically. But where's the compromise? I have some good friends that have been there for me and we've shared good times together - but their primary social activity is going to the pub and drinking. I can't be bothered standing around in a bar listening to people talk about stuff I have no interest in. I want to be able to get up, go to work, come home and Work on stuff: learning, reading, etc.

I know I need to do something because for the first time since March, thoughts of gaming, drinking alcohol, etc. have been popping into my head. I want to do neither of these things, but I see them as markers - red flags; there's something lacking in my life or my routine.

That reads like it's about the right time to add something new to your life. Is there anything that you've put on a "back burner" waiting for the right time?

 

[Chu]

I think that it's pretty normal to go through periods like that, T.C. And that it's awesome that you feel so much sense of responsibility. But, you have to have some social life, and most of all, some fun. Otherwise, you go through what you noticed. And you can also stifle any creative process. I know because it has been a hard one for me to change, and I still sometimes fall back into "must do" mode, until I'm exhausted. It's not worth it. I keep reminding myself that if I get sick, or die, then I'm going to be MUCH less useful!

Anyway, here is a post that might help you: http://scottiestech.info/2014/12/07/work-smarter-not-harder/

Even if you are not working on a problem you need to solve, it's a good philosophy to apply all around, I think.

Another thing is to make sure that you don't indulge too much into anything. But I think you already know that. Just as leaving the forum made you appreciate it more, well, one hour doing something else can make you feel a lot happier about coming back, contributing to group projects, etc.

What I've found to be helpful is to do something useful. I'm not one of those people who can be perfectly happy playing a video game, watching something for hours, etc. For me, any "hobby" has to have some kind of purpose (it CAN be annoying to be like that, but that's the way it is!). It's like I have to feel that the fun activity makes me learn something and be productive too, not just for fun. So, I sew, or do something manual that helps (cleaning, tidying up, organizing, fixing something, etc.). I watch movies with others, but for the social connection. And I spend time with people (here in this community but also with others), for the same reason, and for strategic enclosure, etc. But if it's a "me time", then it must be something useful. I feel like I've taken time off, but also accomplished something at the same time. You've got to work around what you have. Otherwise, you can get as frustrated/guilty/sad etc. if you don't do something fulfilling. (But before you think I'm a freak, I DO do things just for the sake of relaxing, once in a while! :P Rarely though... But the things I described are already relaxing in their own way.)

And, if you have an inner fire that tells you what you want to do, then that time "off" is not wasted. It's just a time to recover energy, think, reflect upon things you learned, use your brain differently, etc. And when you go back to "serious stuff", it will feel different. You will have renewed your commitment to it.

Anyway, just FWIW. That's how I trick myself before I get too exhausted. One has to take care of oneself for the sake of others too.

Oh, and yes, sometimes you can work like crazy and have no fun because you are trying to control things. Because you don't feel that your inner world is under control (not to mention the real mess we have in the world, against which sometimes we may feel there is nothing we can do). Or because you are afraid of dealing with something else, and keeping busy distracts you from that. So, being aware of it helps. You can then decide whether to change your attitude and keep working but for better reasons, or even allow yourself to feel that you "control" the process (but know that that is what you are doing instead of identifying too much with the job you are performing), or go do something else, accept the things you can't control, work on the issue in question, and still learn to be ok. Or a combination, depending on the situation.

Just some ideas which may or may not apply to your situation. If you think it does, how about taking on a course of some kind, a useful hobby, a new skill you can learn either by yourself, or in a class setting in town, or something?

 

[T.C.]

Hi everyone.

Here's some of the things I've done over the past couple of days, how I feel about them and how I feel now.

*A colouring-in book

I'd read the thread on this activity, and then my Mum also received one of these books from a friend for Caesarmas. I went to an art supply store to get some black card to re-black-out my bedroom windows, and I found a really nice one of these books. So I bought it as a gift to myself and some felt-tip pens and sat for a wihle colouring in and listening to some music I like.

I think it helped because it 'stilled' my mind. It gets rid of internal chatter and takes one away from thought loops of the false personality. Afterwards, I just felt more relaxed and grounded.

*Visiting friends to play games

We had a games night at a friend's house and it was a lot of fun. There were 5 of us in total - me and two couples - and these guys are friends that I really care about and enjoy being with. Also, one of them got me a book, Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. She'd read it herself and thought I'd like it, and I was really touched.

Whenever I'm out, be it with friends, family or at work, I do 'take the Work with me' (a nice phrase). But even though we can still be somewhere else and self-remembering, self-observing, constantly working out the best way to be externally considerate moment to moment, it's a different kind of work to just being sat in the house, reading and working on the computer. As well as the fun, and the sharing and talking and playing, just the change of scene was very beneficial for me. I feel a bit like the energy in me and in my home had become stale, somehow; home had started to become a place of 'flatness' and 'drabness'.

*Watched some episodes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Since coming back to the forum, I've had so much reading and catching up to do that watching any kind of tv show or movie just hasn't been on the radar and I've had no desire to do so. I just couldn't see any reason for it and didn't want to uselessly dissociate.

Well, it turns out after watching some Buffy, and also, thinking back to when I went to see the new Star Wars film with my cousin last week and earlier in the year we went to see the Mad Max remake, that I actually don't dissociate when I watch films and suchlike. I'm constantly trying to read between the lines, profiling the characters, looking for the cosmic drama's.

The character of Buffy has always filled me with a deep appreciation of what it means to be a warrior. She doesn't have a choice in whether or not she wants to be 'The Slayer' today, or not. She tries to have her normal life, but at the same time, she has to be constantly on guard and prepared to fight a demon at any moment - just like us. Any temptation we might face, any lazy or selfish thought, any difficult person we have to interact with, anything we don't want to have to do right now, these are all demons that - as warriors - we have to be prepared to fight. So watching these episodes refilled my 'sense-of-purpose-battery' so to speak.

*Jam night

Last night I went to a bar where local musicians gather to play together every Wednesday. It was a place I used to go every week when I first moved to the town where I now live, but I hadn't been to this place for over a year. Again, it was just nice to get out and see some people I hadn't seen for a long time. I also may have picked up a new guitar student from it. Again, it was just a change of scenery and I just got to get up and play some songs in a relaxed atmosphere, which was fun.

All in all, I feel more like the me I want to be; more like the me I should be; more like the me that I was. I'm really glad this has happened because now I know a feeling to watch out for. It's hard to describe but it falls into the category of a dullness and flatness and staleness. So I'm going to recommence my usual routine and when I start to feel this way again, I'm just going to take a break from whatever it is I'm spending too much time working on, and really just 'have a change'. In English, we have a saying, "A change is as good as a rest" and I think this applies when we're thinking about down time. Down time, a break, a rest, a change, doesn't have to be mean that we need to DISSOCIATE; it doesn't mean we have to forget ourselves or our aim; it doesn't mean we have to switch of into a flatline brain pattern. That was what I was afraid of, I think: "I can't stop what I'm doing because I'm supposed to be working towards being more conscious, not more unconscious." I had made an association between changing my activities and "going back to sleep" (which I fear), and that was wrong of me. If you're a thinker and a questioner and a dot connector and you're always looking for the nuances and deeper reality behind the symbols we get with our eyes and ears, then I think whatever you're doing can be a useful activity.

To much self-remembering may turn you into a ‘monk’ I think.

With that I mean, unable to enjoy anything. It’s stressful.

Well, self-remembering is a way to achieve one's aim - so if one's aim is to become a monk, then yes, it'll help with that. But if one's aim is to be able to face reality and at the same time experience an enjoyment of the challenge and experience, then done in the proper way, it should help with that too.

Is there anything that you've put on a "back burner" waiting for the right time?

Learning to oil paint and getting my gradings for guitar and drums. They're things I want and need to do, respectively, but I haven't had a sense of urgency about them. But I may have to bump them up my priorities list after my experiences this week.

Besides, "taking time out", which is what TC was asking about in the first post, is not "working". It is a time for relaxation and/or social interaction.

And as always, the devil is in the details and it depends what you're like and what your aim is. As I've discovered, to my pleasant surprise, relaxation and social interaction don't have to mean dissociation and sleep. I think in my original post, I was speaking of downtime in the sense of "not working", but now I don't see them as needing to be separate. I guess it's just like 'working in a different room'.

I think that it's pretty normal to go through periods like that, T.C. And that it's awesome that you feel so much sense of responsibility. But, you have to have some social life, and most of all, some fun. Otherwise, you go through what you noticed. And you can also stifle any creative process. I know because it has been a hard one for me to change, and I still sometimes fall back into "must do" mode, until I'm exhausted. It's not worth it. I keep reminding myself that if I get sick, or die, then I'm going to be MUCH less useful!

It's good to know I'm not alone in this and that it's normal. It's ironic (and annoying) that in order to be more productive in the things that are priorities, we have to stop every now and again and do something seemingly unrelated. But, I guess even marathon runners have to stop and rest before they can carry on again. It seems I have been neglecting things that are important, that actually are priorities too. I'm learning other things that are important and other ways I can take care of myself, to continue to be useful to others.

Anyway, here is a post that might help you: http://scottiestech.info/2014/12/07/work-smarter-not-harder/

Even if you are not working on a problem you need to solve, it's a good philosophy to apply all around, I think.

Thanks. I'll read it.

Another thing is to make sure that you don't indulge too much into anything. But I think you already know that. Just as leaving the forum made you appreciate it more, well, one hour doing something else can make you feel a lot happier about coming back, contributing to group projects, etc.

What I've found to be helpful is to do something useful. I'm not one of those people who can be perfectly happy playing a video game, watching something for hours, etc. For me, any "hobby" has to have some kind of purpose (it CAN be annoying to be like that, but that's the way it is!). It's like I have to feel that the fun activity makes me learn something and be productive too, not just for fun. So, I sew, or do something manual that helps (cleaning, tidying up, organizing, fixing something, etc.). I watch movies with others, but for the social connection. And I spend time with people (here in this community but also with others), for the same reason, and for strategic enclosure, etc. But if it's a "me time", then it must be something useful. I feel like I've taken time off, but also accomplished something at the same time. You've got to work around what you have. Otherwise, you can get as frustrated/guilty/sad etc. if you don't do something fulfilling. (But before you think I'm a freak, I DO do things just for the sake of relaxing, once in a while! :P Rarely though... But the things I described are already relaxing in their own way.)

Yes, I can relate to that. I hate the thought of wasting time. There has to be a reason for everything I do. I recently bought a book called, The Village Effect about how important social interaction is, in the hope that with more knowledge of a good reason, I might make more of an effort to get out more. Seems there was some timing in that, because I've only read the first chapter before putting it down and now things have come to a head a little bit. Guess my higher self tried to intervene before I started to feel 'off'.

And, if you have an inner fire that tells you what you want to do, then that time "off" is not wasted. It's just a time to recover energy, think, reflect upon things you learned, use your brain differently, etc. And when you go back to "serious stuff", it will feel different. You will have renewed your commitment to it.

Anyway, just FWIW. That's how I trick myself before I get too exhausted. One has to take care of oneself for the sake of others too.

Yes, I'm feeling much better today. I felt a bit reluctant to post about how I was feeling because my negative introject was telling me, "You should just be able to carry on - you're looking for an excuse to be lazy". I'm glad I started the thread, now.

Oh, and yes, sometimes you can work like crazy and have no fun because you are trying to control things. Because you don't feel that your inner world is under control (not to mention the real mess we have in the world, against which sometimes we may feel there is nothing we can do). Or because you are afraid of dealing with something else, and keeping busy distracts you from that. So, being aware of it helps.

I journal often as a way of processing anything I might need to deal with. Unfortunately, I'm also aware that you can't analyse the way you think with the way you think, so things may slip thorough the net. But I do try to make it a regular practice in the hope that I can deal with any of my problems. I don't think I just Do in order to avoid something else; I do because I feel I need to justify my existence and because it is now what's in me to do and it's what I want to be doing - I don't see any other reason to exist.

You can then decide whether to change your attitude and keep working but for better reasons, or even allow yourself to feel that you "control" the process (but know that that is what you are doing instead of identifying too much with the job you are performing), or go do something else, accept the things you can't control, work on the issue in question, and still learn to be ok. Or a combination, depending on the situation.

I think moving in to my own place in October has contributed to the way I've been feeling. Even living in a house-share with your own room and personal space, you have lots of interactions that break up your day/evening - conversations which might not be about anything deep or interesting, but just ones you didn't PLAN to have: short little experiences you didn't plan - whereas, when you live alone, and you're at home, every single thing you do is under your own impetus. I think there's something in this - control versus randomness; everything you experience dictated by you, as opposed to some things you experience being out of your control.

Just some ideas which may or may not apply to your situation. If you think it does, how about taking on a course of some kind, a useful hobby, a new skill you can learn either by yourself, or in a class setting in town, or something?

Thanks Chu. All good food for thought.

[edit: fixed quote]

 

[bjorb]

[quote author=bjorn]To much self-remembering may turn you into a ‘monk’ I think.

With that I mean, unable to enjoy anything. It’s stressful.

[quote author= TC]Well, self-remembering is a way to achieve one's aim - so if one's aim is to become a monk, then yes, it'll help with that. But if one's aim is to be able to face reality and at the same time experience an enjoyment of the challenge and experience, then done in the proper way, it should help with that too.[/quote][/quote]

I am not planning to become a monk ; ) Way of the monk would be to ignore certain urges (mechanical ways) and master this in such way that those urges would not dominate his thoughts any longer. He would not try to understand or deal with those urges like practiced in the 4th way. He would just attempt to ignore those viciously.

Positive dissociation is important. We have to be able to relax because we can’t achieve anything when we are in a constant state of stress.

And being in a state of self-remembering is stressful. Questioning yourself sincerely trying to be honest with yourself leave much to be discovered about ourselves we may not like. And rightfully so if the mirror is received correctly. How can we chance otherwise?

I don’t have to deal with a lot of people in my life. So I may have the energy to question my intent in social interactions while trying to external considerate. Those 2 go together of course I think. Because the intent can only be right when you are external considerate.

But if you have to deal with a lot of people daily. Taking it more easy with that approach may be well advised.


[quote author= TC]I know I need to do something because for the first time since March, thoughts of gaming, drinking alcohol[/quote]

When I first read about the toxicity (Inflammation) of drinking I didn’t at once became a ‘saint.’ Only after several moments did I truly begin to appreciate the feeling of being healthy. So I can advice to try to notice the difference. My mind would be rather sluggy and slow after such nights. Worthless state to be in.



- Regarding your first post TC

Positive dissociation does not entail obsession. Sometimes its difficult to tell the difference when playing a game for example. If you can't let the game go. Its negative dissociation. The thread given about it is really helpful.

 

[Buddy]

Here's another idea. Previously you mentioned an activity you were engaged in while your mind was somewhere else. Is there an activity you enjoy when your mind, feelings and body feel in sync? And you seem to do the right thing at the right time, most of the time, and that serendipitous events sometimes happen around you even if there are challenges involved?

If so, I'd say that's an activity to continue and get better at while eliminating those that make you feel "in a rut" or somehow out of sync. If not, then maybe experiment with some activity to see if it will lead to the above situation. Just a thought.

 

[bjorb]

Hi TC,

Your topic was about how to relax properly. And my answer was about how I think applying The Work in such scenarios could be beneficial.

It isn’t exactly the same thing.

But I think the remark of Solie was really insightful. To try to see the lessons within with everything we do helps us to become more conscious.

So don’t see the things you mentioned as time wasted. The right approach I think is to see them as learning opportunities.

- I won’t hijack your topic any longer. Kind of did that when I replied to others about other stuff, I didn't replied to you. And it is your topic.

 

[T.C.]

Here's another idea. Previously you mentioned an activity you were engaged in while your mind was somewhere else. Is there an activity you enjoy when your mind, feelings and body feel in sync? And you seem to do the right thing at the right time, most of the time, and that serendipitous events sometimes happen around you even if there are challenges involved?

If so, I'd say that's an activity to continue and get better at while eliminating those that make you feel "in a rut" or somehow out of sync. If not, then maybe experiment with some activity to see if it will lead to the above situation. Just a thought.

I've been thinking about this since you posted it. The best thing I can come up with is improving my musicianship, which in the current situation would involve bettering myself at classical guitar and piano, and doing some gradings I need to get on electric guitar and drums.

Improving my musicianship tends to bring unexpected rewards as well as the one's I was aiming for. And the last time I learnt a full set of acoustic songs - just for the love of it - I serendipitously bumped into the owner of a bar in town who needed an act for the following Tuesday night and ended up doing a gig.

So, in terms of ticking all the boxes you listed, that about fits. Although, whatever I choose to do (good or bad, lol) I always get the full support of the universe!

 

[T.C.]

I haven't known what thread to post this in: it has elements for the positive dissociation thread, the iodine thread, this one and even a new one. But I've decided it's probably best here.

I stated in the iodine thread that I'd been getting really hungry while taking it. I thought it was maybe metabolic and I do actually think now that I have had symptoms of hypothyroidism, probably brought on by the ketogenic diet but then accelerated by the iodine. So I was experimenting with eating more and fasting less to see if I could improve things. I've stopped taking the iodine completely until I get things back on track.

But this overeating thing didn't improve, and I actually let it get out of control. I've realised that it wasn't as physiological as it was emotional. The overeating has been accompanied by and timed with the subject of starting this thread in that I have been generally emotionally restless. And at the same time, as the overeating has gotten worse, I've been thinking about an ex-girlfriend more and more, to the point where I dream about her almost every night.

So I've now managed to put all this together, it seems, and I've started reading In The Realm of Hungry Ghosts by Gabor Mate and watching some talks by him. I was doing really well before I started the iodine and I believe that the issues I've been having over about the past month are rooted in unresolved emotional traumas, which the iodine has brought up to the surface. And I've been using food to self-medicate, to boost my endorphins and dopamine. I think a lack of sunlight has probably played a part, too.

In terms of activities I've been experimenting with to change things up a bit, I've discovered the importance of time management. I now spend a good amount of time studying and practising my musical instruments. I'd neglected this. I've kind of realised that over the last six months, my time spent online, reading sott, transcribing, reading the forum, etc., has increased while my time spent in 'real life' has decreased. The aim, "To be in the world, but not of it" comes to mind, in that I've neglected the "Being in the world" part and have maybe been going through some sort of derealisation.

I've started going to a local male voice choir. I always sang in choirs when I was a kid and I'm enjoying it so far. The only problem I have with it is that I worked hard this year to get myself into a position where I didn't have any commitments to anything or anyone other than myself, my job, immediate family and friends I want in my life, and the people here on the forum. But joining this choir would actually be quite a commitment and I don't want to get tied into anything that could be a drain. I was feeling like this about it already, and then they've gone and asked me if I would consider becoming the deputy conductor due to my work and my ability to sight-read the score for the songs; so this is a bit of a red flag for me. I told them I'd just joined for something to relax and I didn't know if I was going to actually fully join yet, so probably not, for now.

I also came to the realisation - actually before I started thinking about the addiction/emotional side of things - that my brain is pretty much wired to need drama, excitement, stimulation. I've gone from being a professional musician, gigging and travelling every weekend, always being around other people, to living on my own and going to the same job each day, my days being simple and regular and... well, I don't want to use the word because this is what I wanted and worked hard for, but boring; at least compared to how I've lived the last few years. So there's another reason why I'm using food to stimulate my brain chemistry.

Programmes, upbringing, tendencies; unhealthy needs and drives that once served a purpose; a brain that cries out for drama and stimulation, experiences and excitement. I feel like I'm learning so much about myself and haven't even scratched the surface yet.

 

[Buddy]

[...]
I also came to the realisation - actually before I started thinking about the addiction/emotional side of things - that my brain is pretty much wired to need drama, excitement, stimulation. I've gone from being a professional musician, gigging and travelling every weekend, always being around other people, to living on my own and going to the same job each day, my days being simple and regular and... well, I don't want to use the word because this is what I wanted and worked hard for, but boring; at least compared to how I've lived the last few years. So there's another reason why I'm using food to stimulate my brain chemistry.

Programmes, upbringing, tendencies; unhealthy needs and drives that once served a purpose; a brain that cries out for drama and stimulation, experiences and excitement. I feel like I'm learning so much about myself and haven't even scratched the surface yet.

You seem to be aware that overeating is a way of coping with your awareness of your current boredom, so, where to go from here?

Maybe it could be useful to find ways to increase the novelty in your daily life? Things like taking different routes to work and back home; leaving work or home at different times so you can stop and explore this or that; Googling ways to make shoes out of discarded rubber tires in case we have an instant ice age and people get frozen in their tracks and have to step out of their shoes..., which is to say, finding ways to keep your sense of humor. :)

Chu is saying something similar in her post above and bjorn is highlighting the self-remembering aspect from the angle of external/internal considering (Neil seems to be going through something similar) - which even Ouspensky mentions (in terms of the benefit of novelty and inherent uncertainty) in ISOTM .

Not referring to you here, necessarily or exclusively, but IMO, when and if people activate latent but natural cognitive functions and get stabilized, some may find themselves wanting to return to more familiar and comfortable mindsets. They may suffer the temptation to demonize themselves for even having considered doing anything new, different or in some way adding novelty in their lives. In such a case, I would refer them back to The Wave. Laura uses metaphors and analogies from brain studies, Authurian archetypes and with other means to demonstrate that this (new) functional state is a realm for awareness or intuitions of the matrix, deja vu, reality manipulation in some manner, synchronicity, Castaneda's references, perception of choices, growth, petty tyrants, etc. It may allow folks to stay grounded in reality if they start to feel anxious or whatever.

It may also be useful to mention that instead of choosing one mental frameset over the other, we, and others, will benefit most by blending them both and use our full abilities to investigate and understand the reality around us and increase our chances of surviving the ordinary and extra-ordinary stuff that may devastate others.

So, it seems that the answer to this part of the problem is that when we are connected to the Cosmos via the right brain, and are not blocking the ability of our Cosmic Connection by limiting the forces with boundary forming imagination or images or illusory concepts, we allow the perfect manifestation of our own frequency resonance to occur. By the same token, when necessary, we can close the door to manipulation of our minds by constantly running a sort of computer scan of possible breaches of our security system in the left brain. We must marry the left brain kingship of the material world to the right brain queen of the inner realm.

Source: http://cassiopaea.org/2010/05/18/the-wave-chapter-23-lucifer-and-the-pot-of-gold-or-the-quest-for-the-holy-grail-of-no-anticipation/

Finally, look again at that Bertrand Russell quote in your siggy. To me, that represents a right brain view of people stuck in their comfortable left-brain states. Then look at the Cassiopaean quote in your siggy. I feel like that conceptually closes my point in this reply.

 

[luc]

Hi T.C.

In terms of activities I've been experimenting with to change things up a bit, I've discovered the importance of time management. I now spend a good amount of time studying and practising my musical instruments. I'd neglected this. I've kind of realised that over the last six months, my time spent online, reading sott, transcribing, reading the forum, etc., has increased while my time spent in 'real life' has decreased. The aim, "To be in the world, but not of it" comes to mind, in that I've neglected the "Being in the world" part and have maybe been going through some sort of derealisation.

Given the bold part and what you wrote earlier in this thread, I would think that the choir may be a great opportunity. You never know which doors this may open that you didn't even think about. And what do you have to loose? I mean yes, you don't want to disappoint these people once you have joined, but you could leave it anytime if it just doesn't work out, right? Of course, I guess you would have to figure out

a) is there something wrong with it because they wanted to "hire you on the spot" ("red flag"), or were they just looking desperately for someone and then you and your skills walked right in the door, making a good impression?

b) what kind of commitment would likely be involved? Is it one hour average a week, two hours, three hours...? (Might be helpful to assess this very objectively, without guilt or fear of "loosing time")


Some further thoughts: I used to tour as well with a band, but now I happily live the "boring" life, which I find actually much more exciting. And I have similar thoughts when it comes to how to spend my free time. But as Chu and others mentioned, I think it is important to find some balance, precisely in order to "maximize your usefulness". In my experience, meeting new people, committing to something such as a leisure activity/club/whatever can open not only many interesting opportunities and create some needed movement in your life, it also brings a completely new perspective, on yourself and the world. This, in turn, can be a huge inspiration for doing something productive! Kind of, you go out there, get a fresh perspective/use your focus on something else, then come back here with insights you have "collected", which you can then combine with all those concepts discussed here and on sott - so it can actually enhance learning!

Lastly, weirdly enough, in my experience oftentimes the more you do, the more commitments you have etc. (within reason of course), the more you are actually getting things done otherwise as well! Just as an example: when I have a "free day", despite my glorious plans to use it for being productive, oftentimes I just don't find the energy to do so. Then I can "casually" browse the forum and sott, which doesn't achieve anything really. On the other hand, oftentimes when I just have, let's say, 1 hour somewhere during the day for this, I can be totally on point - you know, come here, put my very best into a reply or whatever, or getting some focused and directly useful reading done, and afterwards go about my other chores with even more energy! So I think it's not so much about "maximizing time" but more about "maximizing energy", for which other activities can be essential - at least for me.

Programmes, upbringing, tendencies; unhealthy needs and drives that once served a purpose; a brain that cries out for drama and stimulation, experiences and excitement. I feel like I'm learning so much about myself and haven't even scratched the surface yet.

I can very much relate, and that's why I like the idea with the choir - I could be wrong, but I think this could be more of an interesting challenge than the "cheap excitement" associated with the pop music/clubbing/gigging world?

Anyway, my 2 cents - good luck :)

 

[T.C.]

[...]
I also came to the realisation - actually before I started thinking about the addiction/emotional side of things - that my brain is pretty much wired to need drama, excitement, stimulation. I've gone from being a professional musician, gigging and travelling every weekend, always being around other people, to living on my own and going to the same job each day, my days being simple and regular and... well, I don't want to use the word because this is what I wanted and worked hard for, but boring; at least compared to how I've lived the last few years. So there's another reason why I'm using food to stimulate my brain chemistry.

Programmes, upbringing, tendencies; unhealthy needs and drives that once served a purpose; a brain that cries out for drama and stimulation, experiences and excitement. I feel like I'm learning so much about myself and haven't even scratched the surface yet.

You seem to be aware that overeating is a way of coping with your awareness of your current boredom, so, where to go from here?

Maybe it could be useful to find ways to increase the novelty in your daily life? Things like taking different routes to work and back home; leaving work or home at different times so you can stop and explore this or that; Googling ways to make shoes out of discarded rubber tires in case we have an instant ice age and people get frozen in their tracks and have to step out of their shoes..., which is to say, finding ways to keep your sense of humor. :)

Chu is saying something similar in her post above and bjorn is highlighting the self-remembering aspect from the angle of external/internal considering (Neil seems to be going through something similar) - which even Ouspensky mentions (in terms of the benefit of novelty and inherent uncertainty) in ISOTM .

Not referring to you here, necessarily or exclusively, but IMO, when and if people activate latent but natural cognitive functions and get stabilized, some may find themselves wanting to return to more familiar and comfortable mindsets. They may suffer the temptation to demonize themselves for even having considered doing anything new, different or in some way adding novelty in their lives. In such a case, I would refer them back to The Wave. Laura uses metaphors and analogies from brain studies, Authurian archetypes and with other means to demonstrate that this (new) functional state is a realm for awareness or intuitions of the matrix, deja vu, reality manipulation in some manner, synchronicity, Castaneda's references, perception of choices, growth, petty tyrants, etc. It may allow folks to stay grounded in reality if they start to feel anxious or whatever.

It may also be useful to mention that instead of choosing one mental frameset over the other, we, and others, will benefit most by blending them both and use our full abilities to investigate and understand the reality around us and increase our chances of surviving the ordinary and extra-ordinary stuff that may devastate others.

So, it seems that the answer to this part of the problem is that when we are connected to the Cosmos via the right brain, and are not blocking the ability of our Cosmic Connection by limiting the forces with boundary forming imagination or images or illusory concepts, we allow the perfect manifestation of our own frequency resonance to occur. By the same token, when necessary, we can close the door to manipulation of our minds by constantly running a sort of computer scan of possible breaches of our security system in the left brain. We must marry the left brain kingship of the material world to the right brain queen of the inner realm.

Source: http://cassiopaea.org/2010/05/18/the-wave-chapter-23-lucifer-and-the-pot-of-gold-or-the-quest-for-the-holy-grail-of-no-anticipation/

Finally, look again at that Bertrand Russell quote in your siggy. To me, that represents a right brain view of people stuck in their comfortable left-brain states. Then look at the Cassiopaean quote in your siggy. I feel like that conceptually closes my point in this reply.

I've come to the realisation that over the past few months, I've been treating myself like a workaholic father who has no time for his children. This has come from a deep digging into my upbringing, as well as looking at my past relationships with women.

As a kid, I spent most of my life alone in my room. My mum instilled me with a belief that I just don't matter - not in a "you're worthless" way - though I've got some of that in me - but in a "I need you to be invisible" way, and so, I just wasn't really nurtured. This then developed into the attitude I have towards myself; in a way, not being with my inner self, not being present to my inner self, not being available to my inner self, not being mindful of my emotional needs and not paying attention to or being aware of the human side to me - living life detached from myself, automatic and robotic.

Since my early teens, I've spent a lot of energy in ignoring me. I didn't realise it in the way I feel it now, but looking back, last year, this changed. I nurtured myself and got in touch with myself for a good few months. I was mindful of my own existence. I just WAS, rather than defining myself based on what I DID. But the energy and health and confidence and ability to think that this brought on drove me to desire something very specific: to be in a stable position, away from people who aren't doing the work and away from A influences, so that I could just read and learn and work as much as possible, now that I was able.

After attaining this goal, I had acquired a new list of daily aims and goals, but now I realise that these were purely based in my intellectual centre - the absent workaholic father was created, and the T.C. I nurtured so well last year was left alone, sat in his bedroom. But he's been acting out and causing me 'problems'. And I've tried to tell him, "don't do this; don't do that", but I guess that telling a child who is acting out because they're getting hurt and wounded to stop behaving badly is a futile endeavour - like telling clouds that are rising and cooling and condensing not to fall as rain.

Today, I've reconnected with the part of myself that is connected to the universe and thrives on my nurturing, rather than living the day as a disconnected, material drone with a list of tasks. I've practices mindfulness when eating, taking each mouthful of food and experiencing the taste and the feelings and sensations it gave me, chewing it properly and swallowing before taking another - which made me feel very full and satiated - and while smoking - I actually felt a nicotine rush from a cigarette today; and my cigarettes have lasted over 5 minutes, rather than the usual 30 seconds.

I remember something. I remember. I remember last year when I felt so strong and balanced, that it was because I had made myself my priority, rather than making a to-do list my priority.

I don't feel hungry, for the first time in 5 weeks.

Hi T.C.

In terms of activities I've been experimenting with to change things up a bit, I've discovered the importance of time management. I now spend a good amount of time studying and practising my musical instruments. I'd neglected this. I've kind of realised that over the last six months, my time spent online, reading sott, transcribing, reading the forum, etc., has increased while my time spent in 'real life' has decreased. The aim, "To be in the world, but not of it" comes to mind, in that I've neglected the "Being in the world" part and have maybe been going through some sort of derealisation.

Given the bold part and what you wrote earlier in this thread, I would think that the choir may be a great opportunity. You never know which doors this may open that you didn't even think about. And what do you have to loose? I mean yes, you don't want to disappoint these people once you have joined, but you could leave it anytime if it just doesn't work out, right? Of course, I guess you would have to figure out

a) is there something wrong with it because they wanted to "hire you on the spot" ("red flag"), or were they just looking desperately for someone and then you and your skills walked right in the door, making a good impression?

Almost exactly the words you use. That a couple of months ago, the conductor and the chairman had a talk about looking for a deputy conductor and were thinking of advertising, and then I 'walked through the door'.

The red flag came from the fact that on my second visit, I had prepared a little speech in my mind to say to the chairman about how I didn't know if I was going to join or not yet, in case I felt any pressure and could set out my stall to build a good boundary and not put any pressure on myself, and at the end of the session, that's when they came over to me and before I could say anything of the sort, they asked me to consider becoming the deputy conductor. So my thought patterns went, "Oh, for God's sake. Can't I just have something without it being a 4DSTS manipulated energy draining dynamic?" - 'agent activation', so to speak.

b) what kind of commitment would likely be involved? Is it one hour average a week, two hours, three hours...? (Might be helpful to assess this very objectively, without guilt or fear of "loosing time")

It's a two hour rehearsal each week, around 12 performances per year, plus a couple of social events. So, as I said, I'm going to continue to go to practices for now and see how I get on. My life seems to be strewn with experiences of joining some sort of group or team or society and then having to leave them, and I don't want to experience that again.

Some further thoughts: I used to tour as well with a band, but now I happily live the "boring" life, which I find actually much more exciting. And I have similar thoughts when it comes to how to spend my free time. But as Chu and others mentioned, I think it is important to find some balance, precisely in order to "maximize your usefulness".

Agreed. Also, going off what I've written about above regarding this new realisation, I think it all has to do with why we're doing something, how our mindframe and attitude is while we're doing it, and making sure it's something we can link our whole being to it, rather than neglecting any emotional aspects of ourselves. I ended up turning my world grey, losing the colour from my life. In hindsight, I think I was unintentionally experimenting with a path that can lead to a kind of self-transcendence, believing that all I had to do was get myself into a position where I could just work all the time, and then just work all the time. But my emotional self didn't like it at all.

In my experience, meeting new people, committing to something such as a leisure activity/club/whatever can open not only many interesting opportunities and create some needed movement in your life, it also brings a completely new perspective, on yourself and the world. This, in turn, can be a huge inspiration for doing something productive! Kind of, you go out there, get a fresh perspective/use your focus on something else, then come back here with insights you have "collected", which you can then combine with all those concepts discussed here and on sott - so it can actually enhance learning!

Yes, that does make total and complete sense.

Lastly, weirdly enough, in my experience oftentimes the more you do, the more commitments you have etc. (within reason of course), the more you are actually getting things done otherwise as well! Just as an example: when I have a "free day", despite my glorious plans to use it for being productive, oftentimes I just don't find the energy to do so. Then I can "casually" browse the forum and sott, which doesn't achieve anything really. On the other hand, oftentimes when I just have, let's say, 1 hour somewhere during the day for this, I can be totally on point - you know, come here, put my very best into a reply or whatever, or getting some focused and directly useful reading done, and afterwards go about my other chores with even more energy! So I think it's not so much about "maximizing time" but more about "maximizing energy", for which other activities can be essential - at least for me.

Yes, that also makes a lot of sense.

Programmes, upbringing, tendencies; unhealthy needs and drives that once served a purpose; a brain that cries out for drama and stimulation, experiences and excitement. I feel like I'm learning so much about myself and haven't even scratched the surface yet.

I can very much relate, and that's why I like the idea with the choir - I could be wrong, but I think this could be more of an interesting challenge than the "cheap excitement" associated with the pop music/clubbing/gigging world?

Anyway, my 2 cents - good luck :)

Thanks. Yeah, that was the idea; I thought it might be something wholesome and beneficial and maybe it is. So I'm just going to take my time and not jump straight in the deep end.

 

[Keit]

I've come to the realisation that over the past few months, I've been treating myself like a workaholic father who has no time for his children. This has come from a deep digging into my upbringing, as well as looking at my past relationships with women.

As a kid, I spent most of my life alone in my room. My mum instilled me with a belief that I just don't matter - not in a "you're worthless" way - though I've got some of that in me - but in a "I need you to be invisible" way, and so, I just wasn't really nurtured. This then developed into the attitude I have towards myself; in a way, not being with my inner self, not being present to my inner self, not being available to my inner self, not being mindful of my emotional needs and not paying attention to or being aware of the human side to me - living life detached from myself, automatic and robotic.

Since my early teens, I've spent a lot of energy in ignoring me. I didn't realise it in the way I feel it now, but looking back, last year, this changed. I nurtured myself and got in touch with myself for a good few months. I was mindful of my own existence. I just WAS, rather than defining myself based on what I DID.

Interestingly enough, recently I have been going through a similar process of realizing what I have been doing, or actually not doing for the most of my life. Surely, there were glimpses of understanding, but only now it became clear.

The thing is that I have this recurring dream, or rather a nightmare where I am busy going over things in my house (or a house of my mother) or in the basement and suddenly find a box, or someone else finds this box or container for me. And there I usually find a kitten or other baby animals, sometimes a bunch of them. They are in a horrible condition, cramped together, exhausted and barely alive. And the nightmare part is, that in the dream I suddenly realize that these creatures are my responsibility, and that I am supposed to take care of them. But I didn't know, so they were neglected, forgotten, and really a miracle how they are even still alive! In the dream I am horrified by this and by the possibility of losing them and want to try and save them.

Sometimes the dream was that I did try to save them, but it was like going through molasses, a feeling of frustration and not being able to make a real difference. But in the latest variation of the dream (that actually happened not long ago) there was an improvement of sorts. In the dream I was in my room, but don't remember what I was doing there. It was a new and renovated room. And suddenly I saw a cat. The cat was an adult and in a good physical condition. He was just walking around the people that came to visit me. And suddenly I realized that this cat was my responsibility and I was supposed to take care of him.

But again, I didn't know that. But I also was perplexed by his good condition, and so assumed that perhaps he somehow found a way or a hole to get out of the closed room, and that's where he got his food. Or maybe someone else was taking care of him. The bottom line is, that the cat somehow found a way to nurture himself. The feeling of him being my responsibility was still present, but not in a horrifying way.

Well, the symbology is pretty straight forward, and it is clear that these baby animals were my neglected self. Also, on one hand it is good to see that dream's symbology changed, and that the animals aren't in a horrible condition anymore. But then, even if now it is clear that it has to do with self nurturing, as the latest dream indicates my mind still lacks understanding how to do it in a conscious way! Glad that now my subconscious knows it and does what needs to be done. But still...

So I totally understand how hard it may be to know what could nurture the self and how to do it properly. It appears that nurturing isn't something that can be structured, or something that can be even accessible to a conscious mind. Maybe it's a series of small acts, or even something emotional that allows the self to feel accepted and loved. My only speculation at this point is, that maybe by nurturing the conscious part, doing things that would make one a better person, would somehow have an influence on the subconscious part too. Also perhaps it would sound as a cliche, but trusting the self and listening also can make a difference. Not saying that every whim and thought should be accepted, but treating them without judgment for a change also appears to do something. fwiw.

 

[T.C.]

Hi Keit

I'm glad you've seemingly 'let the cat out of the bag'

It appears that nurturing isn't something that can be structured, or something that can be even accessible to a conscious mind.

I guess it depends what you mean by "structured"? In one way, my life has been very structured over the past six months, and...

Maybe it's a series of small acts, or even something emotional that allows the self to feel accepted and loved.

... I believed this was what I was doing: that, for example, taking care of my health is an act of love towards myself and that it would send a strong message to myself that I am worthy of love. And for a good while, it does seem to have worked well. But...

My only speculation at this point is, that maybe by nurturing the conscious part, doing things that would make one a better person, would somehow have an influence on the subconscious part too.

... as Gurdjieff said (and also the guys on the last episode of The Health and Wellness Show talked about) everything in us is interconnected and we don't very well know how, and one thing can affect one or more other things in ways we couldn't anticipate. So I think that in reference to "doing things that would make one a better person, would somehow have an influence on the subconscious part too", I think it's highly likely that that could work both ways: on the one hand, it may nurture and sooth the inner-self, but I also think that on the other hand, the inner-self could rebel against this kind of work and start acting out.

Of course, that's probably due to the fact that we can only peel off one layer of the onion at a time, and that when we're trying to work on ourselves and improve ourselves, we don't yet have all the facts, all the clues, all the snapshots, and hardly any of the knowledge about what we actually really need and how we should be treating ourselves for the best. Even the easiest one - the physical aspect, in terms of diet, etc. - is a labyrinth of trial and error, and we can go down one corridor, get lost, find ourselves at a dead end, and have to go back to where we were better oriented.

Also perhaps it would sound as a cliche, but trusting the self and listening also can make a difference. Not saying that every whim and thought should be accepted, but treating them without judgment for a change also appears to do something. fwiw.

Yep, and that's a great summation of how we actually do the Work, in terms of self-observation and self-remembering.

I'm on day 4 of a new relation to myself. I'm being more mindful; I'm being more aware of what's going on in me and it's very humbling because I hardly know myself at all. I've been working on parts of my inner-self the way Restin Wells talks about in Deep Therapy in the Fast Lane. I'm coming to a hypothesis that a craving for food not long after I've eaten a meal, for example, is a non-verbal or pre-verbal part of myself's way of communicating with me; that it feels lonely or abandoned etc. And so, for a couple of days, I was using a mantra when I had feelings like this, "It's okay. I'm here and we're together now, and I love you", and it worked! The self felt soothed, the cravings went away and I felt better. BUT... not yesterday! lol. Yesterday, I tried this over and over with food cravings in the evening, and it had no effect. So I had to try something else. I ended up just saying in a very matter of fact way, "I don't eat after 6pm". And this way worked.

So, it's difficult, because a same "inner problem" - in this case, food cravings - can't just be dealt with the same way every time. It's like every time it crops up, you have to try different things.

I think there can be a danger of taking the inner-child nurturing talk thing too far. I started to feel overly self-indulgent. Okay, maybe that's what I'd been missing for a while and maybe I needed it - but once one has taken a good enough 'dose' of that, then it's time to get back to work, as the self indulgence is a means to an end, not the end itself. I could see it becoming addictive and one becoming immaturely narcissistic, with a growing feeling of entitlement and a losing of the feeling of responsibility towards others and the world.

Think, try, observe the results, adjust, think, try, observe the results, adjust, and repeat and repeat.

 

[Hesper]

Thanks for starting this thread, T.C. I'm sure it's on a lot of people's minds.

I've often noticed that, when I'm mentally or physically exhausted, it helps me to wait until I'm feeling a little rested and do my best to take a step back, look at what I've been doing, and re-organize it consciously, with the awareness that I need rest and there's nothing I can do about that. Anything that is mindful and restful, like playing music or reading a good fiction book, seems positive during this time. If I'm just mentally exhausted it seems like simple hard work can bring me out of being fatigued. If I'm physically exhausted I won't struggle too much against that and give myself a nap to let my body get caught up on energy. It seems the worst part of fatigue is the emotional component, because it is oh so true that dissociation and self-calming sing their siren songs when we're feeling tired.

On the emotional aspect, which seems to be the 'worst' part of being fatigued: It's easy to fall into feeling sorry for myself when I'm exhausted. There is also an abundance of guilt and shame stemming from losing my ability to do and feeling like I'm slipping from a previously attained level. But I think that accepting and 'harvesting' these emotions actually contributes to the process of re-organization and disintegration. I come to realize that self-pity is actually a self-denial, a way of giving up one's responsibility. The guilt and shame kick me back onto course. I refocus with a sense of purpose, I question what's going on and look for answers, and then I can find the way forward which had been eluding me. There's new hope again, a new 'paradigm for action'. The alternative to this emotional struggle is the pursuit of self-calming and dissociation, which seems to only prolong the fatigue because the struggle itself seems to re-energize the body.

For me this has been a long learning process, and it wasn't really until last year, when my heart actually began to hurt from over-work, that I realized that it was time for a big change in my attitude towards work and rest. There is definitely a balance that needs to be found, and a 'listen close, look far' aspect to it. We're programmed to deny ourselves, to live outside of our bodies, and to be ignorant of what we need. When it comes down to it, it seems that it's our responsibility to take care of ourselves. No one else's. And this struggle too is part of our development.

Here's a quote from Gurdjieff concerning the struggle between mind and body:

Collect, accumulate the results of struggle. You will need them for continuing. You must accumulate; you have batteries in you in which you must accumulate this substance, like electricity. When we struggle interior with thought, feeling and body, that gives a substance in the place where it belongs. We have no interest today in knowing where that place is. Accumulate.

 

[Yas]

Hi T.C., thank you for starting this thread. I'm pretty sure that many people go through similar situations, as many have already stated, so it's very useful :)

In my experience, neglecting ourselves while trying to compulsively do stuff just because, can be very detrimental. It was the case for me when I moved alone. I too have a brain wired for drama and intensity, so when I moved alone to a calm and flat environment, I kind of started to create the drama I needed, be it through over working or creating dramatic situations.

Now, after a while of wallowing in self-pity, I have been more serious about "lookin after myself" in a mature way instead of fighting what and who I am. Reading The Wave, chapter 23, which deals a lot with non-anticipation really changed my perspective of things and I suppose the Iodine did it's part too.

I'm also a bit like Chu in what she says that for me, even time out has to be useful in some way, so I don't want to do things that I enjoy just because I enjoy them. What I learnt recently was that I'm actually more capable of doing when I'm connected to myself and it's useless to try to force myself to do when I'm very tired. I still get feelings of guilt, but so far, the experience has been that I can find meaning, inspiration and motivation when I engage in an activity that isn't necessarily "work".

For example, last year, watching a movie was something I couldn't do because I would feel guilty about it, now I scan the forum's movie suggestion or other lists in the internet and I find very good movies that get you to think about different perspectives of life and life's issues, dramas, etc. I never thought one could learn and think so much by watching movies, but it does, and then I have some new examples of experiences that I might never have but that bring some understanding.

I also like cooking, so sometimes a good time out is to cook something new and maybe share it with my family. And I like photography, so I take pictures of my food It might be a silly thing, but it's something that I enjoy and it can be useful because I find new ways of nurturing my body, as well as new ideas for my family who ask me to teach them the recipes.

Going for a walk or doing exercise is more difficult, I know, it's good for my health but it's always hard to not feel I'm wasting time on that. But again, trying to bring some meaning other than health helped me with that. For example, a little Yoga can help me practice balance and focus, when walking I "play" the "game" of being mindful when I'm walking, and it's such a challenge that it makes it fun to do my best. And then, these activities tend to put me in a state that improves my performance when it's time to sit and work.

Then there are times when I'm just exhausted and all I need is a little nap, so I try to remember that it's better to take a short nap and recharge than to try to do things without really being able to do anything because I'm so exhausted.

It happened to me recently that my way of reading the forum changed. I used to have this aching anxiety of wanting to read everything and then the frustration that it was impossible for me to do it. Now, I see it more like having breakfast with like-minded people in the morning, and even if I just have time to read one thread, I try to do it mindfully, as if I was truly having breakfast with the people participating in the thread, this has really helped me to engage more in what I'm reading. I guess that it takes more time to do things when you're trying to be mindful, but I also guess that with time and practice one can do more things without doing them mechanically.

Again, as you said, finding balance is important, but without becoming a tyrant to ourselves, I suppose. I see it like this: every day, I try to do a little more, writing this post for example. I can push my self a little to do a little more, trying to keep the non-anticipation focus and just go step by step, without forcing things so to say. Then it can even become a fun challenge with yourself that isn't on the side of "I must" but from a "I want to do this" perspective.

I reckon you are a teacher. For me, teaching is a great job that allows you to have social contact and practice external consideration, so even though I can get a bit upset because teaching takes my time from activities here in the forum, I try to see it as an opportunity to learn, to build empathy, to listen to my students, to focus on their needs, etc... that's really gratifying and then I come out of class tired but happy to be learning with them.

Those were my two cents in case some ideas help you