Conversing With Other People

ggen

Jedi Master
In reading 'Trapped In The Mirror', I've realized that both of my parents are narcissists. A bit of background before I post my question: I am the oldest of 2 children. My sibling is 3 years younger than myself. Growing up, my father was always very selfcentered and short tempered. It was his way or NO WAY. Fortunately my sibling and I didn't suffer any physical abuse. My mother has been physically ill with some infection, illness, injury etc. since I can remember.
During my preteen and teen years, my father worked 3pm until 11pm so he was unavailable after school and much was left up to my mother (me). My brother was doted on and 'excused' from all sorts of sneaky, disrespectful, and untruthful behavior. I seemed to to take on the 'role' as adult/caregiver as there was no one else present to guide our family. When my father was home, he was mostly 'absent' and always blaming my mother for not disciplining or 'giving structure to' the kids. While my mother did hold several jobs, her health was always an issue that dominated the family's attention. My father eventually left my mother for another woman when I was 14.
As soon as I could drive, I became the errand runner and primary 'source' for my mother to come to when she needed to go to doctors. I have probably accompanied her to over 300 doctor's appointments, tests, surgeries etc. Besides taking her, I became actively involved in her care, including speaking to the 'doctors', picking up prescriptions...you get the idea. As I got older and began questioning certain aspects of the 'relationship' she and I had versus the one she had with my sibling, our arguments intensely grew.
Fortunately I have seen the relationship for what it was (not so painful anymore) and also identified the fact that I genuinely care about the ills of others. Whether it be physical or emotional, I pick up on them and am able to relate or console. In the process of awakening, I realize that for years now I have extended way too much of my'self' without regarding that the 'self' needs to be fulfilled as well. In doing the WORK, I'm learning more how to refuel my mental and physical body.
My problem is this: While I have taken much quiet time for recapitulation, reading, etc. I still have to 'operate' outside my studies. I've felt a shift in my understanding of humans and their pain. Although I know 'external' ways to help and relate to them, I know that ultimately they have to 'find their own way'. The people in my past (including my parents) know the 'old' me and still come to me to 'just talk'. They are used to my relating skills, problem solving, diplomacy, empathetic ear, etc. I find my patience dwindling and even as I try to kindly wrap the conversation up and say 'not right now, they're not getting the message. Any suggestions would be most appreciated...I don't want to completely lose it with the ones I care for, but I just can't be that constant receptacle either... :cool2:
 
BrightLight11 said:
My problem is this: While I have taken much quiet time for recapitulation, reading, etc. I still have to 'operate' outside my studies. I've felt a shift in my understanding of humans and their pain. Although I know 'external' ways to help and relate to them, I know that ultimately they have to 'find their own way'. The people in my past (including my parents) know the 'old' me and still come to me to 'just talk'. They are used to my relating skills, problem solving, diplomacy, empathetic ear, etc. I find my patience dwindling and even as I try to kindly wrap the conversation up and say 'not right now, they're not getting the message. Any suggestions would be most appreciated...I don't want to completely lose it with the ones I care for, but I just can't be that constant receptacle either... :cool2:

Welll, you could try talking generally about the Work. I find that makes most people zone out, or feel uncomfortable and leave. ;) I do mean "generally" and not refering to anything specific of FOTCM, the Forum, or Cass.
 
I think they will get used to your reading and your activities with the time. Put limits with facts, this is, to be consistent with what you said, if you are not available for them at the moment, then not attend them. You can also say that you are doing a course in something and you need time.
 
BrightLight11 said:
The people in my past (including my parents) know the 'old' me and still come to me to 'just talk'. They are used to my relating skills, problem solving, diplomacy, empathetic ear, etc. I find my patience dwindling and even as I try to kindly wrap the conversation up and say 'not right now, they're not getting the message. Any suggestions would be most appreciated...I don't want to completely lose it with the ones I care for, but I just can't be that constant receptacle either... :cool2:

Have you had the chance to read "The Narcissistic Family" by the Pressmans? They have some suggestions for this specific problem. Basically it is about learning to say that you cannot always meet others' needs in a way that is not particularly hurtful or disrespectful. The Pressmans suggest the Respectful Adult Communication (RAC) model for this. It goes like "I feel ........", I want ........".

[quote author=Narcissistic Family]
Expressing Feelings
" I feel ..... I want"

Once individuals are able to (1) recognize that they have feelings and (2) label their feelings, they are then able to learn to express their feelings appropriately - the "I feel" part. When they are then able to accept (3) that they have a right to experience those feelings and (4) that their feelings are important, it becomes easier for them to verbalize their expectations to other people - the "I want" part. And as they quickly experience, once they are able to express the "I feel", it is often unnecessary to spell out the "I want". Much of the time, the most important thing is to be able to have feelings heard.

There are skills to be learned for the expression of feelings however. There is a list of "bad things" that people often say when they are experiencing strong emotions and having difficulty in expressing them. While these behaviors (name-calling, "you" references, "always/never" statements, gunnysacking, making historical references etc) work well to

escalate emotions,
hurt feelings,
vent spleens,
induce guilt and shame,
produce defensiveness,
encourage counterattacks and
preclude the possibility of problem solving.

They do not work well to communicate feelings and preferences in a way that they can be heard by the other person. Individuals who are talked to by someone using any of the negative techniques listed above do not feel valued or respected; they feel attacked. Humans don't listen very well when they are being attacked, because they are preparing a defensive counterattack. This is not a good recipe for helpful, problem-solving oriented communication. For instance, individuals will respond quite differently to "You always interrupt me! You're so inconsiderate!" than to "I feel hurt and angry when you interrupt me; I feel like my opinion doesn't matter. I feel stupid".

Conversely, humans do listen to statements describing feelings. Those statements are interesting, descriptive and non-threatening - they describe the speaker, not the listener. They are respectful to both parties, and they stand an excellent chance of being heard. There is no defense to prepare, because there is no attack to defend against. "I feel .... I want" is respectful adult communication (RAC) at its best.
[/quote]

Regarding boundary setting, it involves saying something to the effect

[quote author=Narcissistic Family]
"I'd like to be able to meet your needs, but I can't. In this case our needs are in conflict, and I have to attend to mine". It is important to understand that while it is a difficult skill to acquire, it is vital for our mental health and positive self-image that we learn to be advocates of ourselves. Otherwise we end up in meeting other people's needs at the expense of our own. If we are further able to communicate our message in a respectful and adult way (RAC), people will be able to hear our message clearly without being threatened or devalued by it.
[/quote]
 
Those excerpts from "The Narcissistic Family" (and the whole book as well as the other psychology books) should be very helpful. It was a helpful reminder/memory jog even for me right now. Thanks for posting it, obyvatel. And hope it helps you as well, BrightLight11.
 
Hello BrightLight11,
This is an area that I can relate to from having a very similar family dynamic and having done a lot of traditional work on recovering from it before coming the The Work.

What you have described is a classic case of abuse called “emotional incest.” It happens just as you described—when a parent or parents are unavailable to take on the responsibility of parenting and the burden falls to usually an older child to take over and “parent” the family. The result is the child is deprived of some aspects of childhood, and takes on adult responsibilities too early and disproportionately causing confusion of boundaries. In short, you develop “codependency” tendencies where you become over-responsible for others to the determinant and loss of yourself.

It sounds like you are on your way to recognizing and correcting your condition. The Work includes many of the principles for recovering from unhealthy boundaries and codependency even though they are not described as such. You may also want to investigate some of the classics of recovery from codependency from authors such as Melody Beattie and Pia Mellody.
Best of luck to you,
shellycheval
 
I think you are being taken advantage of by your family in your family dynamics. Just from reading your post this is my first gut reaction to it
 
Once I was in a relationship like that, I was the listener, almost the therapy object. :O But you know this person was becoming dependent of me, so I just draw a line with changing the mode I did the phrases. Simply there were moments when I couldn't stand and listen to everything. Whatever, using that method obyvatel mentioned is a good idea, not needed to just say I feel or I need, simply by being honest and communicate your reasons.

These dynamics in some way, become vampiric, you feel really drained.
 
Thank you all for your replies. I want to address several of them individually but I haven't the time today. I have obligations to meet before I can sit down and retain my focus on this ever present issue. I shall return! :cool2:
 
BrightLight11 said:
Thank you all for your replies. I want to address several of them individually but I haven't the time today. I have obligations to meet before I can sit down and retain my focus on this ever present issue. I shall return! :cool2:

Seems to me you just stated it perfectly and this approach would both honor your need to be elsewhere and not offend your family. I had a friend who would say something similar, "I know how important the discussion of ___ is to you and I am truly interested in hearing about it, but I must decline at this time." There was never a doubt as to her sincerity and never a flap about her not participating.
 
Hello everyone! Thank you all for your insight and advice. I learned about expressing myself through the "I feel. I want." statements when I underwent therapy years ago. Thank you obyvatel for the refresher and the suggestion on reading 'The Narcissistic Family'. Eventually I would like to get my hands on a copy. (I'm reading sooo much.)
As a very young adult trying to make and maintain friendships, I realized that I was very much like a therapist to most of my friends. Thank you Prometeo for reminding me that I don't have to put myself in that position!
Shellycheval, your comment took residence most in my mind. I'm beginning to see the psychological 'damage' that was done. As you mentioned, I'm taking the required steps and plunging forward in 'undoing' it!
Lastly, KJN, you're correct. I can state my intentions simply, honestly, and keep my word in doing so. It is much easier with 'strangers' though than with 'family'. The intensity/energy of their 'requests' are very strong and hard to ignore. I continue to consciously be aware that while I'm quite attuned to them I don't have to be readily available to 'receive' them at all times. It's quite an effort reminding myself that there has to be boundaries... :cool2:
 
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