Coronavirus vaccination? "The damage would be fatal"

A suitable vaccine against the coronavirus is still a dream. But what if we have it? Is vaccination required to protect the population?
Bavaria's Prime Minister Markus Söder caused a stir during the week with a statement on the general obligation to vaccinate against the corona virus. "I would be very open to an obligation to vaccinate," said the CSU boss on Thursday after a meeting with Baden-Württemberg's Prime Minister Winfried Kretschmann (Greens) in Ulm.
Vaccinate, even against the will of the citizens? That would be a serious encroachment on basic human rights, namely the right to physical integrity. And yet this question is likely to come up in the future. There is currently no vaccine. But research is under way to find a possible remedy around the world. Just last Wednesday, the Paul Ehrlich Institute had given approval for clinical studies with a possible vaccine. Three other active ingredients are also being tested worldwide.

For german readers: There is a poll at the end where you can issue your 'no thanks' about mandatory vaccination (without requiring name or email, but some other data).
 
Australia is starting to ease restrictions in Queensland and Western Australia.

For Queensland:
Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk announced that people would be able to go for a drive within 50 kilometres of their home or go out for a picnic with members of their household.

Some non-essential shopping, like for clothes or shoes, would be permitted and some national parks would reopen.

The Premier stressed that maintaining the existing social-distancing measures was essential, and that "if we do see mass gatherings, I will not hesitate to clamp back down". (:rolleyes:)

It's a small step but one Ms Palaszczuk said was "a positive move". These measures will be reviewed after two weeks of closely watching the numbers of new infections.

For Western Australia:
The two-person rule has been lifted, with indoor and outdoor non-work gatherings of up to 10 people now allowed to "ensure family and friends can stay connected during the pandemic".

Like Queensland, West Australians are encouraged to "continue to practice appropriate social distancing".

"The changes announced [Sunday] are sensible and reasonable and are designed to provide some relief for Western Australians," Mr McGowan said.

In New South Wales, government is still considering lifting restrictions, but it seems that they are not happy with some non-compliance to existing restrictions:

NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian spoke late last week about a potential lifting of some restrictions, and said the Government had been discussing the best way to go about it.

"We have used this time during restrictions when we have seen a drop in the number of new cases to prepare the health system, to prepare the community for what would occur if we did raise those restrictions," she said.

But her enthusiasm may have been tempered by the scenes on Sydney's beaches. A number of beaches in the Randwick council area were opened for exercise this week, which instead drew an influx of people over the weekend.

"I think the councils are having a very tough time as a result of some selfish individuals who think that beaches are their own personal backyard as I heard someone say. Well sorry, no they're not, they're actually a place that we all share and we have to share it safely," NSW Health Minister Brad Hazzard said.

Randwick council will reassess the situation on Monday.

The other states are not making any moves to ease restrictions yet and it seems they will be waiting until May 15 to reconsider.

Coronavirus restrictions will soon be eased in Queensland and WA. What about other states?
 
I'm glad you feel useful now all your rights have been taken away. It certainly allows for people to concentrate on other things rather than distractions.

Absolutely. For some this time may seem to be a blessing (I have seen a few of these people myself).

For me, I am still in work and nothing I do has been impacted too badly compared to others.

However, even if this situation is seen as a blessing by some, for it to come at such a huge cost to free will for, quite literally, billions of people is one of the most important aspects to all of this.

If individuals want to 'self-isolate', work from home, avoid social events they are often free to do so (even if this means changing ones lifestyle or intending to get a job that allows for this). But to force this on a huge portion of the world's populace is one of, if not the, largest infringement upon free will that has been inflicted on people.

Or, after a little more thought, it could be seen as the most blatant/overt infringement, rather than largest... 'They gave us their mind!'
 
This was a bit disappointing:


I'd like to think that there's some wise strategy behind this statement, but right now the reason escapes me...
I could be very wrong. But I think that perhaps there is a problem here of cross agendas with Russia, and the role it still plays in the UN's global institutions and their derivatives as WHO. Note that over the last decade Russia has been handling the crisis in Syria (and others) from the framework of international legality. In other words, it has advocated solving world problems within the framework of the UN by invoking the legal levers that were forged after World War II between the world powers.
Therefore, Russia still hopes to redirect things from these institutions, in which it still retains a significant weight and interests. In this context, as we say in Spain, if Russia "breaks the deck and throws itself into the bush" it can give an international image of inconsistency and informality. So it would be in the momentary position of following the game without making much noise (perhaps waiting to patiently address many issues within the WHO and the UN - we shall see).
But there is the message given by his younger brother, Belarus, giving clues as to what he really thinks behind the scenes.
 
So sad, so sad. And these experiences makes us be aware how we need to be touched physically and spiritually. Your story touch me so much.

Today kids can go outside with a parent. I saw a family with two young kids. Oh, how important are kids and we forgot them during the quarantaine. I was happy to see them and at the same time I felt so sad that I almost cried. They are, with old people, the first victims of this madness. Kids need air, sun, need to play, to yell, to laugh! And old people also need air, sun, laugh! How criminal to not permit to go outside, to walk, to talk to others!
I just came back from a 2hour walk with my son and I must admit that it felt liberating. It felt like a normal Sunday. For a little while I forgot of the 6 weeks quarantine... There were some parents and kids that were wearing masks, but most of them were just being normal, in terms of not really keeping the required distance and interacting with their aquaintances(I was mostly pleasantly surprised with the adults, who would not really respect the distance when they met somebody they knew and were happy to see each other). I also saw some old people walking around and enjoying the riverside(although they were not really aloud to be there), as there was no police.
We live 20-30 m away from the river, but till today we were not aloud to get close to there, because there was no supermarket around and police was being very vigilant. Thanks to my son, I could enjoy walking there. How stupid these rules are....
Anyway, it looks like people start waking up... Today is the first day in 6 weeks that I feel some hope.
 
While I was out walking the city yesterday I noticed how people are now beginning to break into more obvious groups. The people who are total believers in the exaggerated response to this virus and the ones who are waking up to the "truth". At this point I'm wondering what direction the mainstream media is going to take. They can either begin to back off the exaggeration and tone this down or continue to push the panic. I think this Monday we'll begin to see what direction they're going to take.
 
I'm glad you feel useful now all your rights have been taken away. It certainly allows for people to concentrate on other things rather than distractions.

I'm not sure I agree that all my rights have been taken away. Some of them have been temporarily curtailed - and that remains true until it becomes abundantly clear that it's not just a curtailment, and that it's far from temporary. You might postulate that it will be too late by then and you might be right, but which side of this razor thin line do you want to stand?

I'm not sure how you would expect a society to manage and control a viral epidemic, but I can't see how it could ever take a shape that would be vastly different to the one we see. So can you say for definite, the curtailment of rights is a ruse to rob the populace of their liberty?

.. it could be true, but I wouldn't want to say it for definite.. not yet, at least
 
I'm not sure I agree that all my rights have been taken away. Some of them have been temporarily curtailed - and that remains true until it becomes abundantly clear that it's not just a curtailment, and that it's far from temporary. You might postulate that it will be too late by then and you might be right, but which side of this razor thin line do you want to stand?

I'm not sure how you would expect a society to manage and control a viral epidemic, but I can't see how it could ever take a shape that would be vastly different to the one we see. So can you say for definite, the curtailment of rights is a ruse to rob the populace of their liberty?

.. it could be true, but I wouldn't want to say it for definite.. not yet, at least

the question is whether there’s a viral epidemic that deserves curtailing of rights, if the danger is as presented and if it is as shown to us by the media or if the goal is to curtail the rights and not deal with the epidemic and the latter is simply the excuse.
 
I could be very wrong. But I think that perhaps there is a problem here of cross agendas with Russia, and the role it still plays in the UN's global institutions and their derivatives as WHO. Note that over the last decade Russia has been handling the crisis in Syria (and others) from the framework of international legality. In other words, it has advocated solving world problems within the framework of the UN by invoking the legal levers that were forged after World War II between the world powers.
Therefore, Russia still hopes to redirect things from these institutions, in which it still retains a significant weight and interests. In this context, as we say in Spain, if Russia "breaks the deck and throws itself into the bush" it can give an international image of inconsistency and informality. So it would be in the momentary position of following the game without making much noise (perhaps waiting to patiently address many issues within the WHO and the UN - we shall see).
But there is the message given by his younger brother, Belarus, giving clues as to what he really thinks behind the scenes.

This seems likely, Javi. Russia has been heavily involved with the WHO and other international organisations as you say.

Even as they, seemingly at least, work towards more stability and multi-polarity in the world they take great pains to do it through these organisations legally. Putin, Lavrov and others have very often stressed this point and have pointed fingers at other states like the US and it's allies for not respecting the rule of international law.

There are also numerous examples of Russia waiting for the right moment to act and not rushing in with rash statements and actions. Even if Trump is trying to work towards the same goals, his methods are very different.

Trump goes for an immediate 'cut all the funding!' While the Russians continue to work within the established framework and take their time trying to reforming it... Maybe... For many the WHO has lost a lot of its influence recently, so maybe the Russians see possible changes coming or an opportunity to increase their own influence there.
 
An article criticizing (outright debunking, in fact) the official COVID-19 case numbers and death rates published by WHO and the media was published by one of the world's leading epidemiologists, Stanford professor Dr. John Ioannidis, on March 17. It's been widely discussed in the meantime, but I don't see it on this thread so here's the SOTT version:


Ioannidis went into greater detail in this interview, published March 23, in which he warned that an extended lockdown might (read: WILL!) have far graver effects than the disease itself:


If you go to the video on YT, there's an index so you can jump to points of interest.

Niall shared this back in March and I wanted to follow up with an opinion piece from the Wall Street Journal that a family member sent to me. I think it sums up the case that COVID is a nothingburger fueled by media hype really well and it hits on almost all of the points folks have been making here on the forum all along. I especially like this metaphor that the author attributes to him: "It’s like an elephant being attacked by a house cat. Frustrated and trying to avoid the cat, the elephant accidentally jumps off a cliff and dies.”


The Bearer of Good Coronavirus News
Stanford scientist John Ioannidis finds himself under attack for questioning the prevailing wisdom about lockdowns.
By Allysia Finley
Updated April 24, 2020 5 14 pm ET

Defenders of coronavirus lockdown mandates keep talking about science. “We are going to do
the right thing, not judge by politics, not judge by protests, but by science,” California’s Gov.
Gavin Newsom said this week. Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer defended an order that, among
other things, banned the sale of paint and vegetable seeds but not liquor or lottery tickets.
“Each action has been informed by the best science and epidemiology counsel there is,” she
wrote in an op-ed.

But scientists are almost never unanimous, and many appeals to “science” are transparently
political or ideological.
Consider the story of John Ioannidis, a professor at Stanford’s School of
Medicine. His expertise is wide-ranging—he juggles appointments in statistics, biomedical
data, prevention research and health research and policy. Google Scholar ranks him among the
world’s 100 most-cited scientists. He has published more than 1,000 papers, many of them
meta-analyses—reviews of other studies. Yet he’s now found himself pilloried because he
dissents from the theories behind the lockdowns—because he’s looked at the data and found
good news.

In a March article for Stat News, Dr. Ioannidis argued that Covid-19 is far less deadly than
modelers were assuming. He considered the experience of the Diamond Princess cruise ship,
which was quarantined Feb. 4 in Japan. Nine of 700 infected passengers and crew died. Based
on the demographics of the ship’s population, Dr. Ioannidis estimated that the U.S. fatality rate
could be as low as 0.025% to 0.625% and put the upper bound at 0.05% to 1%—comparable to
that of seasonal flu.


“If that is the true rate,” he wrote, “locking down the world with potentially tremendous social
and financial consequences may be totally irrational. It’s like an elephant being attacked by a
house cat. Frustrated and trying to avoid the cat, the elephant accidentally jumps off a cliff and
dies.”


Dr. Ioannidis, 54, likes metaphors. A New York native who grew up in Athens, he also teaches
comparative literature and has published seven literary works—poetry and fiction, the latest
being an epistolary novel—in Greek. In his spare time, he likes to fence, swim, hike and play
basketball.

Early in his career, he realized that “the common denominator for everything that I was doing
was that I was very interested in the methods—not necessarily the results but how exactly you
do that, how exactly you try to avoid bias, how you avoid error.” When he began examining
studies, he discovered that few headline-grabbing findings could be replicated, and many were
later contradicted by new evidence.

Scientific studies are often infected by biases. “Several years ago, along with one of my
colleagues, we had mapped 235 biases across science. And maybe the biggest cluster is biases
that are trying to generate significant, spectacular, fascinating, extraordinary results,” he says.
“Early results tend to be inflated. Claims for significance tend to be exaggerated.”
An example is a 2012 meta-analysis on nutritional research, in which he randomly selected 50
common cooking ingredients, such as sugar, flour and milk. Eighty percent of them had been
studied for links to cancer, and 72% of the studies linked an ingredient to a higher or lower risk.
Yet three-quarters of the findings were weak or statistically insignificant.

Dr. Ioannidis calls the coronavirus pandemic “the perfect storm of that quest for very urgent,
spectacular, exciting, apocalyptic results. And as you see, apparently our early estimates seem
to have been tremendously exaggerated in many fronts.”


Chief among them was a study by modelers at Imperial College London, which predicted more
than 2.2 million coronavirus deaths in the U.S. absent “any control measures or spontaneous
changes in individual behaviour.” The study was published March 16—the same day the Trump
administration released its “15 Days to Slow the Spread” initiative, which included strict social-
distancing guidelines.

Dr. Ioannidis says the Imperial projection now appears to be a gross overestimate. “They used
inputs that were completely off in some of their calculation,” he says. “If data are limited or
flawed, their errors are being propagated through the model. . . . So if you have a small error,
and you exponentiate that error, the magnitude of the final error in the prediction or whatever
can be astronomical.”

“I love models,” he adds. “I do a lot of mathematical modeling myself. But I think we need to
recognize that they’re very, very low in terms of how much weight we can place on them and
how much we can trust them. . . . They can give you a very first kind of mathematical
justification to a gut feeling, but beyond that point, depending on models for evidence, I think
it’s a very bad recipe.”

Modelers sometimes refuse to disclose their assumptions or data, so their errors go
undetected. Los Angeles County predicted last week that 95.6% of its population would be
infected by August if social distancing orders were relaxed. (Confirmed cases were 0.17% of the
population as of Thursday.) But the basis for this projection is unclear. “At a minimum, we need
openness and transparency in order to be able to say anything,” Dr. Ioannidis says.
Most important, “what we need is data. We need real data. We need data on how many people
are infected so far, how many people are actively infected, what is really the death rate, how
many beds do we have to spare, how has this changed.”

That will require more testing. Dr. Ioannidis and colleagues at Stanford last week published a
study on the prevalence of coronavirus antibodies in Santa Clara County. Based on blood tests
of 3,300 volunteers in the county—which includes San Jose, California’s third-largest city—
during the first week of April, they estimated that between 2.49% and 4.16% of the county
population had been infected. That’s 50 to 85 times the number of confirmed cases and implies
a fatality rate between 0.12% and 0.2%, consistent with that of the Diamond Princess.
The study immediately came under attack. Some statisticians questioned its methods. Critics
noted the study sample was not randomly selected, and white women under 64 were
disproportionately represented. The Stanford team adjusted for the sampling bias by weighting
the results by sex, race and ZIP Code, but the study acknowledges that “other biases, such as
bias favoring individuals in good health capable of attending our testing sites, or bias favoring
those with prior Covid-like illnesses seeking antibody confirmation are also possible. The
overall effect of such biases is hard to ascertain.”

Dr. Ioannidis admits his study isn’t “bulletproof” and says he welcomes scrutiny. But he’s
confident the findings will hold up, and he says antibody studies from around the world will
yield more data. A study published this week by the University of Southern California and the
Los Angeles County Department of Public Health estimated that the virus is 28 to 55 times as
prevalent in that county as confirmed cases are. A New York study released Thursday estimated
that 13.9% of the state and 21.2% of the city had been infected, more than 10 times the confirmed
cases.

Yet most criticism of the Stanford study has been aimed at defending the lockdown mandates
against the implication that they’re an overreaction. “There’s some sort of mob mentality here
operating that they just insist that this has to be the end of the world, and it has to be that the
sky is falling. It’s attacking studies with data based on speculation and science fiction,” he says.
“But dismissing real data in favor of mathematical speculation is mind-boggling.”


In part he blames the media: “We have some evidence that bad news, negative news [stories],
are more attractive than positive news—they lead to more clicks, they lead to people being
more engaged. And of course we know that fake news travels faster than true news. So in the
current environment, unfortunately, we have generated a very heavily panic-driven, horror-
driven, death-reality-show type of situation.”

The news is filled with stories of healthy young people who die of coronavirus. But Dr. Ioannidis
recently published a paper with his wife, Despina Contopoulos-Ioannidis, an infectious-disease
specialist at Stanford, that showed this to be a classic man-bites-dog story. The couple found
that people under 65 without underlying conditions accounted for only 0.7% of coronavirus
deaths in Italy and 1.8% in New York City.


“Compared to almost any other cause of disease that I can think of, it’s really sparing young
people. I’m not saying that the lives of 80-year-olds do not have value—they do,” he says. “But
there’s far, far, far more . . . young people who commit suicide.” If the panic and attendant
disruption continue, he says, “we will see many young people committing suicide . . . just
because we are spreading horror stories with Covid-19. There’s far, far more young people who
get cancer and will not be treated, because again, they will not go to the hospital to get treated
because of Covid-19. There’s far, far more people whose mental health will collapse.”He argues that public officials need to weigh these factors when making public-health decisions, and more hard data from antibody and other studies will help. “I think that we should
just take everything that we know, put it on the table, and try to see, OK, what’s the next step,
and see what happens when we take the next step. I think this sort of data-driven feedback will
be the best. So you start opening, you start opening your schools. You can see what happens,”
he says. “We need to be open minded, we need to just be calm, allow for some error, it’s
unavoidable. We started knowing nothing. We know a lot now, but we still don’t know
everything.”

He cautions against drawing broad conclusions about the efficacy of lockdowns based on
national infection and fatality rates. “It’s not that we have randomized 10 countries to go into
lockdown and another 10 countries to remain relatively open and see what happens, and do that
randomly. Different prime ministers, different presidents, different task forces make decisions,
they implement them in different sequences, at different times, in different phases of the
epidemic. And then people start looking at this data and they say, ‘Oh look at that, this place did
very well. Why? Oh, because of this measure.’ This is completely, completely opinion-based.”
People are making “big statements about ‘lockdowns save the world.’ I think that they’re
immature. They’re tremendously immature. They may have worked in some cases, they may
have had no effect in others, and they may have been damaging still in others.”

Most disagreements among scientists, he notes, reflect differences in perspective, not facts.
Some find the Stanford study worrisome because it suggests the virus is more easily
transmitted, while others are hopeful because it suggests the virus is far less lethal. “It’s
basically an issue of whether you’re an optimist or a pessimist. Even scientists can be optimists
and pessimists. Probably usually I’m a pessimist, but in this case, I’m probably an optimist.”

Ms. Finley is a member of the Journal’s editorial board.

Here's a link to the article that's unfortunately behind a paywall: Opinion | The Bearer of Good Coronavirus News

I'm attaching a pdf version as well.
 

Attachments

the question is whether there’s a viral epidemic that deserves curtailing of rights, if the danger is as presented and if it is as shown to us by the media or if the goal is to curtail the rights and not deal with the epidemic and the latter is simply the excuse.

Yes, there's no argument from me there. That consideration can't help but sit at the forefront for most of us, I'm sure. I don't know about you, but I currently, feel ill-qualified and ill-equipped to make that judgement as to which it is.. I just don't know.. I'm not seeing an evidence based reason to jump to either side of that line at this point.
 
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So sad, so sad. And these experiences makes us be aware how we need to be touched physically and spiritually. Your story touch me so much.

Today kids can go outside with a parent. I saw a family with two young kids. Oh, how important are kids and we forgot them during the quarantaine. I was happy to see them and at the same time I felt so sad that I almost cried. They are, with old people, the first victims of this madness. Kids need air, sun, need to play, to yell, to laugh! And old people also need air, sun, laugh! How criminal to not permit to go outside, to walk, to talk to others!
My neighbors have two children ages 3 and 5. They’ve taken to setting up a playground in the alley behind our house where they set up chairs and barbecue with the neighbors from the next block. It’s like a tiny community hidden from the street with music and guys wrenching on a hot rod in the garage across the alley, having a few beers, and generally being totally normal. It’s like Saturday afternoon every day. The children are having a ball, no one’s wearing masks or keeping 6 feet apart. And because it’s in the alley away from prying eyes, nobody’s bothering them. It’s a wonderful break from the gloom and doom of the grocery store death march.
 
Hello to all of you
I've just read a very interesting article: "Treating Coronavirus with Clay".
It's so simple and inexpensive and full of common sense.
Moreover, I like this French woman doctor, Dr. Jade Allègre, because of her frankness and her simple willingness to help people.
It reminds me of David versus Goliath or "Clay versus Vaccine, etc."
There's a video where we can listen to this doctor...
And I saw that the site can make a translation for languages other than French.
Good reading and tenderness for all

Article and video
Vidéo : Traiter le Coronavirus avec l'Argile !

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
 
the question is whether there’s a viral epidemic that deserves curtailing of rights, if the danger is as presented and if it is as shown to us by the media or if the goal is to curtail the rights and not deal with the epidemic and the latter is simply the excuse.
Yes, there's no argument from me there. That consideration can't help but sit at the forefront for most of us, I'm sure. I don't know about you, but I currently, feel ill-qualified and ill-equipped to make that judgement as to which it is.. I just don't know.. I'm not seeing an evidence based reason to jump to either side of that line at this point.
Indeed. As with so many events in the world that we are supposed to believe the official narrative in and comply – why so many obfuscated/hidden facts and data? Why so many obvious lies and pointless measures?

Of course if there were a real and deadly pandemic of, say ebola, we would likely need an international response and certain freedoms may be lost for a time.

In a more 'ideal' world with more people thinking and observing this would be better achieved through governments being open about what was going on, scientists studying the problem together and allowing others to view their data – truth, as best as we can see it. Then announcing measures that matched the data and the threat that all could see.

Rather than that, we have nonsense infection numbers from all over the world, no real idea of infection or death rates based on those numbers, all sorts of different measures being implemented and huge restrictions on many peoples freedoms. With the recent internet crackdowns we are seeing further restrictions on free speech and simply being allowed to read what you wish whether you believe it or not.

Seems fairly obvious that when free speech is curtailed, someone does not want you talking about something that threatens them! Otherwise, why would you care what anyone talked about? There is huge manipulation of public perception going on which has been increasing exponentially for decades - for what goal and with what intentions?

Maybe this is a trial-run, maybe the PTB did panic over something they released, maybe this is an attempt to gain more control over the population, maybe it is all of these things. I guess many are here to try to get to the bottom of this question and prepare for what comes next. We may not be able to do this just yet, with the available to data, but with work, gathering the data, we may just get there!
 
Latest news over here. Testing to be ramped up big time.


"Public health officials also decided at their meeting on Friday to expand overall testing capacity to 100,000 tests a week, operating on a seven-day-a-week basis, for a minimum of six months"

"The target, broadly similar to previous promises to ramp up testing to 15,000 tests a day, urgently needs to be met before any easing of Government restrictions can be contemplated. Dr Holohan said the increase in testing would happen “as soon as possible”.

"concerns over the possible under-reporting of coronavirus deaths, particularly among older people in nursing homes"


Also Government say to many are out and about and recently admitted they are tracking people's movements through mobile data.

According to reports drones will be out. Taking photos of car registrations and sending them to the garda. The little natzis are cheering for this. No end in sight to the madness. Covid-1984 mass surveillance in full swing..

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