Darwin's Black Box - Michael J. Behe and Intelligent Design

Let me put this question to you. Say the universe really was just all materialism.

Silly line of discussion. The universe is not just all materialism. Say the moon was made of blue cheese....

Anyway, my point is that whether you believe intellectually in a purposeful or purposeless universe, you still are whatever designed or formed you. There's no escaping that.

Is that meant to be some kind of philosophical statement? Because it makes no sense whatsoever. What a person believes has a VERY direct impact on the progress and evolution of his/her life.

To put your statement another way,

'whether or not a child believes it is a chicken, and either goes to live with other chickens in a coup or lives life as a human being, it's still....what? Schroedinger's half-chicken boy?

I get the impression that all of this is some kind of largely spurious debating society for you, where anything that comes to your mind that sounds like, but acutally isn't, a vaguely relevant point, is okay to throw out there.
 
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While thinking about the matter you might want to take into account the I-Ching for 2019

Yes, in particular this stood out for me as being applicable to @whitecoast, especially Line 4.

The Image
As water rises to heaven to give rain;
So the wise man dispenses his riches.

A lake accumulated in heaven give reason to fear a cloudburst. To pile up riches for oneself alone leads surely to a collapse.
All gathering is followed by dispersion, so the wise man distributes as he gathers.
So also, in developing his character, he takes care to avoid resolution hardening into obstinacy. He remains open to impressions and avoids pride and self-satisfaction by the help of strict and continuous self-examination.

Line 4 moving: Inner obstinacy. Good counsel ignored.
He who wants to push forward under any circumstances, regardless of insuperable obstacles, is obstinate. If only he would desist, all would go well. But he ignores even this advice. Obstinacy makes a man unable to hear, even though he has ears.
 
I don't think "taking a break" is the best way to handle this WC. That's the way to take the heat off, and you should be looking to keep the heat on. You can think about your thinking without going silent. In fact, writing is probably the best way to work though things.

Okay. I'll keep writing.

If you are taking a break to read, please read the ENTIRE thread from the beginning, and the various books discussed.

The next evolution book on my list is Darwin Devolves, which I'm reading as soon as it's available.

Not exactly. She said Stove was good at pointing it out. Then she said if you have been indoctrinated – which applies to almost anyone that has studied any science (and other fields) in University/college etc. That would include you, yet for some reason you think you are exempt from having been through the indoctrination. And that would be an example of Dunning-Kruger. As for selection and substitution, which you are doing now by taking what she said about the former (that Stove was pointing it out) and making it about you would be an example.

Okay, my apologies for misunderstanding you @Gaby.

When confronting uncomfortable things about oneself we rarely know why they are true, and often don’t want to know, even when we say we do. Hence the narratives and mental gymnastics. Instead of being fixated on what Gaby said, perhaps it would be more beneficial to work with what you already have in terms of feedback. You don't need all the pieces of the puzzle or all the evidence to begin the process of understanding why they are true even if you don't believe it at first. Otherwise you are just wasting time.

I'll try my best to keep looking and learning and what's been shared with me here, so maybe I can see more of the blue dot. Thank you for your patience.

Ok. In that case I wonder, and probably others do too, why you seem to be going after Stove so vehemently. If you thought his arguments weren't as strong as, say, Behe's, you could have just pointed that out in a line or two - no big deal. But instead you posted a super long post about it, including subtle jabs to other people you knew would be reading it (e.g. 'idiotic'). Why? My guess is that in spite of the fact that you no longer believe in ND, you are still strongly identified - even proud of - your training as a biologist and your detailed understanding of evolutionary theory. So you have a knee-jerk reaction when you think someone (Stove) didn't get it. But really, the bottom line is that ND is false, and ID is correct, so what does it ultimately matter if Stove didn't get everything right or he wasn't sharp enough, assuming that's the case? Think about this: You didn't write such a vehement post against ND and in favor of ID, which is really the crux of the matter.

I think there may be quite a bit of truth in the bold part. I guess I was nonplussed that arguments of Stove's that I thought were weak were taken in by a lot. Stove is just one piece of the ID puzzle though, so like you said it may not ultimately matter.

It's interesting to see how someone's sense of entitlement can transpire, sometimes. You reproached to Gaby that she hadn't responded to you with arguments, never considering other members' time and energy. The same with other members who replied, and to whom the responses you wrote were a "yes, but" (or worse), not showing any appreciation for their attempts at pointing out what everyone was seeing. So, you are entitled to other people's detailed responses, but you can decide when it's best to "take a break" from a mirror. Just something to think about in terms of all the things that have already been pointed out to you.

Well I said I would take a break from responding because I was concerned about wasting other people's time with things that may not be true, but as per Beau's advice that's still worth it if it keeps the pressure on. And of course I am interested in staying and reading and introspecting and digesting what is said here. And I am sorry if at time I have at times come across as ungrateful or unappreciative of the energies invested so far; that isn't my intention, because it makes people feel like not participating further. It's never a nice feeling.

Random variation or ID? ID is, by definition, NOT random. Your entire line of "thinking" in this post is bizarre and makes it seem like you really don't understand any of the essence of the points that have been made so far in this topic. ID posits meaning and purpose, random mutation implies no purpose and therefore no real meaning, in which case, yes, why listen to any ideas of morality since that's just the product of 'random mutation' and is ultimately meaningless. So "do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law".

If you can't see the essential point here that over 1.5 centuries of this type of materialistic thinking has produced the society we live in today, and that that is probably BY DESIGN, and that ID provides the basis for meaning that is a psychological and spiritual bulwark against rampant materialism and nihilism, then I don't know what to say to you.

I agree with all that you've said here, for what it's worth. Maybe that means I contradict myself from earlier on, and if so I guess that means I have a few things to unlearn. For your various other replies, I'm thankful you posted them. I feel like I'm on the fence about whether I should just reply in a straightforward fashion, or still think and introspect on things more before I do. My instinct tells me both, but I should have something by this time tomorrow. (And that goes for your own reply, @luc).
 
I agree with all that you've said here, for what it's worth. Maybe that means I contradict myself from earlier on, and if so I guess that means I have a few things to unlearn. For your various other replies, I'm thankful you posted them. I feel like I'm on the fence about whether I should just reply in a straightforward fashion, or still think and introspect on things more before I do. My instinct tells me both, but I should have something by this time tomorrow. (And that goes for your own reply, @luc).

It's up to you of course, but I would suggest you do things differently in your next replies.

Your "default mode" seems to be "intellectual combat", the same mode one can witness in online debates between various camps: you read a criticism of your position, take it to be a criticism of you, and then your mind automatically goes into a frenzy to find loopholes, to reframe the questions, to show how your position was misunderstood, how your "opponent" could be wrong, how you can "debunk" the criticism and so on. You then take all kinds of shortcuts to "save your ego" and end up defending positions you yourself maybe don't even believe in, and revert to "stock" arguments and vague thinking that are really below you. I could be wrong of course, but since I know this phenomenon from my own thinking patterns, this seems to be going on with you here.

Maybe it would be a good exercise then to assume that everything we wrote here in response to you is 100% correct. Everything. Then observe your mind and emotions in action: how it goes into a frenzy trying to find a "way out", debunk, turn the tables etc. Don't allow it to control you.

The next step would be something JBP always suggests: try to make our arguments stronger. If you think you found a "weak spot" or "way out", reformulate the argument so that it addresses the issue. If you think you were misinterpreted, ask yourself why that has happened, and make a sharp distinction between your original words and the new thoughts that you come up with to "save" your position. Don't go after the weakest elements in our arguments, but take in and think through the things that seem strongest to you. And so on.

It's incredibly hard, I know that from experience, and we probably all aren't immune against this trap. But I think this sort of exercise is the only way to gain a deeper understanding, because that way you force your mind to really think things through. To think deeply about things and connect your thinking to experience so that you have something solid to stand on. Otherwise, our thinking always degenerates into some kind of ego-driven sophistery that is completely draining and doesn't lead anywhere.

FWIW
 
So my point is, scientists can use completely incorrect models to predict or explain things pretty damn well! And when you want to bump that 60% explainable parts of yours to 80%, it can be equivalent to adding "epicycles" to the geocentric model - adding more and more complicated bullshit to account for anomalies as much as you can. Of course, as more observations are made, your percentage starts sliding down again, and you repeat the process of complicated bullshit yet again! And this is how we went from Darwinism to the current "Neodarwinism" - it's the equivalent of geocentric model with a billion epicycle-like tweaks all over the place. It eventually becomes really complicated and seemingly sophisticated, but that has nothing to do with its alignment with reality.

Exactly!
 
Your "default mode" seems to be "intellectual combat",

Yes, but he's also not very good at it. A convoluted word salad does not an argument make. Try to be simple, clear and HONEST in the points you make to others. To do that, you might have to spend some time being honest with yourself first about those points.
 
I think maybe it's just intellectual egotism. Stove's writings are a bit too crass and unsophisticated for an educated person such as himself. However, you also stepped on the toes of your fellow travelers here. Maybe you can get honest about that? What's behind that? Do you know?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here, but I feel the urge to defend Stove :) Take it for what it's worth, but "Darwinian Fairytales" might be the most impressive philosophical work I've ever read. That doesn't mean we should take everything Stove writes as Gospel truth (obviously), but for me, he is definitely one of the unsung heroes in intellectual history. I wonder how many more there were over the centuries - thinkers who saw what's going on, but whose voices weren't heard, and then eradicated from the canon.

Yes, Stove is polemical, he hails from a right-wing background, and in his career he has written stuff that has triggered and offended almost everybody - but he is not "unsophisticated" or simplistic. His philosophical arguments can be very sophisticated indeed. But he combines this with a heartfelt, honest standpoint that he ruthlessly advances against the "idols of our time". And who has ever said good philosophy needs to be convoluted to the point of being barely intelligible? Who has ever said rigid thinking can't be polemical? In fact, if you are disgusted by what's going on in intellectual life, as you should be, it's almost a given that you'll be polemical.

A good example is when Stove discusses some idiot thinker who advanced the theory that altruism was somehow instilled in a naturally non-altruistic society by certain elites. He presents the theory quite dryly, and just when you begin to wonder "hm, could there be something to it?", Stove writes in the next paragraph: "Have you ever heard anything more ridiculous than that?" When I read that, I almost spilled my coffee laughing!! And what a liberating laughter that was! Because no, he doesn't "weigh pros and cons", or treats this theory with a respect it doesn't deserve. He just calls it out for the bullshit it is. Finally!! When you begin to doubt your own experience, you begin to engage in endless sophistry with your gaslighter, Stove just gives him a roundhouse kick - "you're welcome". But he doesn't only do that: he goes on and shows precisely why it's ridiculous and doesn't add up. It's just brilliant. And as opposed to works by many other philosophers, it's truly useful. It's uplifting, liberating, interesting and an overall catharsis. At least it was for me.

If you want a bonus, check out Stove's essay "A Farewell To The Arts", in which he mounts a devestating attack on the Marxist-Postmodernist-Feminist takeover of the universities - written in 1986, decades before Jordan Peterson!


It's brilliant, and sad, because Stove was absolutely crucified after he wrote that. He WAS a bit of a troll, but so is Jordan Peterson. Some things just deserve to be trolled.



Added: Here's Stove's essay in full, in a better readable format, for those interested:

A FAREWELL TO ARTS

Marxism, Semiotics and Feminism


David Stove
Quadrant, May 1986, reprinted in Cricket versus Republicanism (Quakers Hill Press, 1995).


THE FACULTY OF Arts at the University of Sydney is a disaster-area, and not of the merely passive kind, like a bombed building, or an area that has been flooded. It is the active kind, like a badly-leaking nuclear reactor, or an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in cattle.

Just as a few spots are often improbably spared even in the worst disaster-areas, there are still a few departments in our Faculty of Arts which are passable-to-good. And the disaster I am speaking of has not overtaken the Faculty of Science, or any of the science-based faculties, such as Engineering or Agriculture.

This disaster in Arts has all happened in the last twenty years. In 1965 the Faculty as a whole was undistinguished, as it has always been. But it was not, then or earlier, what it is now, an important source of intellectual and moral devastation. Of course the disaster is not confined to Sydney University. Far from that, it is common to the Arts faculties of most Western universities. So far as there still survives anything of value from the Western tradition of humanistic studies, it is in spite of most of the people in the universities who are the heirs of that tradition.

It is extremely difficult to convey to outsiders the scale of the Arts disaster, and I certainly have not the skill to do it. The quality of it, on the other hand, I can easily convey, by giving a few concrete and representative specimens of what it is that typical members of the Faculty of Arts at Sydney University now do and say.

Example (1)

Dasein's general structure as being-in-the-world doesn't determine its historically specific worldly existence. Rather Dasein always finds itself in some particular mode of being contained as a possibility within the general structure of its being-in-the-world. The traditional philosophical view of the cogito is seen as having emerged from the hypostatisation of one possible mode of Dasein's being from its general structure of being-in-the-world. This mode of being-in-the-world is that of modern scientific enquiry. Here, Dasein's comportment, its experience and its understanding are modified in particular ways. This hypostatisation involves a reciprocal hypostatisation of the categorical form belonging to the objects of Dasein's theoretically modified understanding.

Is this, perhaps, a tolerably-witty parody of German metaphysics written by some Logical Positivist in 1934? ("Dasein" is German for "existence.") No, it is quite serious, and quite up-to-date. It is a representative passage from an article published in Vol. 1 No. 2 (1984) of Critical Philosophy, a journal put out by the Department of General Philosophy. The man who wrote the article is a graduate of that Department, and now a temporary lecturer in it.

Example (2)

"The notion of text implies that the written message is articulated like the sign: on one side the signifier (the materiality of the letters and their connection into words, sentences, paragraphs and chapters), and on the other side the signified, a meaning which is at once original, univocal, and definite... The classical sign is a sealed unit, whose closure arrests meaning, prevents it from trembling or becoming double or wandering. The same goes for the classical text; it closes the work, chains it to its letter, rivets it to its signified." (Roland Barthes.)
Choose a passage of either poetry or prose from within the period covered by course D5 and discuss it in relation to the above quotation.
This example is from the Department of English. It is a question in an examination-paper, dated November 1983, set for "Course D5: Language and Literature in the Restoration and Augustan Periods." This course was compulsory for Honours students in seeond- or third-year English. The quotation from Barthes is a representative specimen of what is called "semiotics." Semiotics, though not mentioned in Eric Rolls' book on introduced pests, is a virulent French form of literary blowfly-strike which has gained a firm foothold in the English Department, and infests most of the other modern-language departments far more heavily still. Nor is it confined to them: the Department of General Philosophy also runs well-attended courses in semiotics.

Example (3)

In other words, feminist theory cannot be accurately regarded as a competing or rival account, diverging from patriarchal texts over what counts as true. It is not a true discourse, nor a more objective or scientific account. It could be appropriately seen, rather, as a strategy, a local, specific intervention with definite political, even if provisional, aims and goals. In the 1980s, feminist theory no longer seems to seek the status of unchangeable, trans-historical and trans-geographic truth in its hypotheses and propositions. Rather, it seeks effective forms of intervention into systems of power in order to subvert them and replace them with other more preferable. Strategy implies a recognition of the current situation, in both its general, structural features (macrolithic power alignments), and its specific, detailed, regionalised forms (microlithic power alignments)...
As a series of strategic interventions into patriarchal discourses, feminist theory doesn't simply aim to reveal what is "wrong" with, or false about patriarchal theories - i.e. at replacing one "truth" with another. It aims to render patriarchal system, methods and presumptions unable to function, unable to retain their dominance and power.
This is from a paper entitled "What is Feminist Theory?," written by a Dr Elizabeth Gross, and delivered publicly by her on several occasions. Dr Gross is a very fervent and influential feminist. She is a graduate of the Department of General Philosophy and was, at the time she wrote this paper, a temporary lecturer in that Department. Of course, this example is of a very different kind from examples (1) and (2). It is intelligible, for one thing. It also has the merit of being candid. Its value, for my purpose, lies in proving that nowadays the Faculty of Arts has philosophy lecturers who frankly avow that their "philosophy" has nothing to do with an interest in truth and everything to do with an interest in power. Since Dr Gross herself could hardly be mistaken on such a point, her avowal is no doubt true. Nor does the Faculty, on the whole, think any the less of Dr Gross on this account. Far from that - but see below for an edifying tale.

A thousand examples could be given as easily as these three, but of course I will spare the reader that. What the reader owes me, in return is that he or she should make the effort of mentally multiplying these examples by a factor of at least some hundreds. Examples (1) - (3) are representative specimens of what the Faculty of Arts now does and is. Most people outside the Faculty find this hard to believe. Most people inside the Faculty, by contrast, even if they would not themselves perpetrate things like (1) - (3), find nothing in the least surprising about them. Such things pass for quite ordinary Faculty work; as indeed they now are.

What brought about this catastrophe? Well, the Vietnam War was of course crucial. No Faculty member of (say) twenty-five years' standing could possibly be in doubt as to that. But if we aim to be a bit more analytical, then we need to distinguish three major contributors to the present terminal illness of the Faculty of Arts: Marxism, semiotics, and feminism.

As an item of the intellectual agenda, Marxism is scarcely even a joke. "Is the 'superstructure' just a 'reflection of the economic base'?" "You must always distinguish, comrade, between mechanical materialism and dialectical materialism ... between Aristotelian logic and dialectical logic... between utopian socialism and scientific socialism." "Are the Theses on Feuerbach `progressive,' or a departure from the standpoint of scientific socialism?" Etc., etc.

Having afterwards found out what serious intellectual work is, I am mortified to recollect that all this seemed to me to be hot stuff when I was nineteen. (Though even then, I can say in self-defence, certain things, such as Engels on "contradictions in nature" - remember the grain of wheat? - were painfully embarrassing.) No: Marxism is a fearful social - and police - problem, but so is the drug trade. It is a fearful political problem, but so is Islamic fundamentalism. But an intellectual problem Marxism is not, any more than the drug trade is, or, Islamic fundamentalism.

Marx himself, unlike his millions of devotees, knew perfectly well what his rubbishy improvisations about "dialectic" etc. are worth. In 1857 he had made certain statements in print about the course of the Indian Mutiny, then going on, and he writes to Engels about these as follows: "It's possible that I shall make an ass of myself. But in that case one can always get out of it with a little dialectic. I have, of course, so worded my proposition as to be right either way." This quotation is from p. 152, Vol. 40 (!), of the Collected Works, (Lawrence and Wishart). It should be pasted over every door in every Arts faculty in the Western World. (Except that it is, alas, a little late for that.)

I use the word "semiotics" here in a sense a little wider than is usual. It is usually confined to a stream of pretentious incomprehensibility, such as example (2) above, which issues from Paris. But example (1) is obviously enough just another case of the same sort of terminal disorder of language, even though its ultimate provenance is German. So, I count (1) as well as (2) as an instance of semiotics. It is entirely out of the question, of course, for me or for anyone else to criticise such stuff: it is altogether below the threshold of criticisability. You might as well hope to detect typographical errors in Finnegans Wake, as hope to detect factual or logical errors in Barthes, Foucault, Derrida, Heidegger, etc. It is a perfect waste of time to read authors, and wonder whether they have got things right, when there is no possible way one could tell if they had gone wrong.

Then there is feminism. If one looked just at "the women's movement" itself, who could possible resist the conclusion that women are intellectually inferior to men? The feminists have yet to produce a single piece of writing, devoted to their cause, which any rational creature could attach importance to. Their writings only serve to show that the authors, after having enjoyed for most of a century advantages which no women ever enjoyed before, and which few or no men have ever enjoyed in any greater degree advantages of freedom, education, wealth, and health - still have nothing more to draw upon than a boundless conviction of their own brilliant merits, merits which the world, by some equally boundless wickedness, has failed to appreciate. Their only theme is still the old everlasting one: we was robbed! One is apt to think, "Jesus, why don't they do something that would command intellectual respect, instead of forever whining about how they are prevented from doing it?" But this is a foolish thought, as my candid colleague who furnished example (3) implies: to look to feminism to bear intellectual fruit is looking for figs from thistles.

Intellectually, then, the sum of Marxism, semiotics and feminism is 0 + 0 + 0 = 0. Morally and institutionally, however, their joint effect on university work was bound to be, and is, simply lethal. Take the assessment of students. How could examination marking be anything but a joke or a racket, where the questions in an exam-paper are things like example (2) above? Take teaching: it must be a surrealist farce, where the teacher's notions of intellectual work are such as are represented by example (1). Take university appointments. Here the impact of feminism is notorious, and the racket has the support or connivance of almost everyone in the Faculty of Arts. As to the moral and institutional impact of Marxism, I need not say anything here, since it is not basically any different in universities from what it is in many other well-known cases, such as the Builders' Labourers' Federation.

Of all the departments in the Faculty, the one which best exemplifies the three influences I have spoken of is the Department of General Philosophy. The Department of English may have more feminists, French may have semioticians still more impenetrable, Anthropology or Fine Arts may have even stupider Marxists, but you cannot go past General Philosophy for solid all-round disaster. Among the Faculty membership at large, accordingly, no department enjoys a wider circle of friends and admirers than General Philosophy.

In 1976, three permanent members ofthis Department fled from it, and received asylum in the other department within the School of Philosophy. In 1984 three more fled. Have these waves of "boat people" created in the Faculty any indignation against those from whom they fled? On the contrary, as in the Vietnamese case, they have only raised still higher the general esteem in which the persecutors are held. At the same time, they have left General Philosophy a little short ~on quantity of philosophy, even apart from its deficiency in quality. Never mind, the courses on Marxism, feminism, and semiotics are as numerous as ever. There are no examinations. For these two reasons, General Philosophy is a very popular department with students; almost as popular as it is with staff. (As a student-refugee once said: in General Philosophy, the challenge is to fail.) A department which could not, under these conditions, turn out a-Marxist-a-minute, would obviously be not even trying.

What now remains of General Philosophy is not so much a philosophy department as a place of retreat, where the devotions prescribed by feminist or Marxist piety can be performed in peace, and under the direction, of qualified priests. Around 985 AD, the pious or guilty rich would often richly endow monks or nuns for the recital, in perpetuity, of prayers for the dead or for the singing of psalms. In 1985 the taxpayer richly endows the religious in General Philosophy for the daily recital of ritual curses on men, capitalism, "analytic philosophy", etc., etc.

I do not mean to suggest that there is no one of ability in General Philosophy. In fact two members of the Department, Dr George Markus and Dr John Burnheim, possess marked intellectual ability. But of course as much depends on interests as on ability, and purely intellectual interests, as distinct from political ones, are not proportioned to intellectual ability in either of these men. Dr Markus is a refugee from Hungary, and, like many such, is extremely intelligent and well-read. But, as is also common enough in such cases, he has remained firmly wedded to the possibility of squaring the circle: of devising, that is, some form of socialism which will not maximise terror and poverty. He cannot get out of the dreary cycle of "A's critique of B's distortions of C's revisions of Marxism" - you know the kind of thing. In more ways than one, Dr Markus is lucky to be here, because in the European Communist countries, of course, no one any longer pretends that this kind of thing is matter for serious thought. The very Party intellectuals themselves join unfeignedly in the laughter at it. In free countries, by contrast, it earns you golden opinions, and large books full of it enjoy steady sales.

The career of Dr Burnheim. has been, superficially at least, more varied. He used to be a Roman Catholic priest, and presided over St John's, the Catholic college attached to the University. But a day came, (during the Vietnam War of course), when he had to give all that away, because he had got real religion: the Arts religion, of Marxism, feminism, and the rest. It is this interesting religion over which he now locally presides. No doubt it is only some recherché and even more interesting sub-variety of it to which Dr Burnheim himself fully subscribes. But then, some such interval must always be allowed for, between a learned clergy and the mere mass of the faithful.

Two recent appointments in General Philosophy were characteristic both of that Department and of the Faculty generally. One of the vacant positions was a tenurable lectureship in feminism. Here the Department wanted to appoint a certain internal candidate, namely the Dr Gross whom I have mentioned earlier. There was, however, strong competition from external candidates, and, at least in respect of philosophy published, Dr Gross's qualifications were hardly encouraging by comparison. Several of the external candidates had published, (and not just on feminism) in first-rate international journals of philosophy. Dr Gross has not. Indeed, fully half of her list of publications have been instead in Intervention, Gay Information, Scarlet Woman, Filmnews, On the Beach, etc.: worthy-enough periodicals perhaps, but not ones which publish very much, or very good philosophy.

No one, of course, regards publications as the only thing to go on in making university appointments, but in this case there was, as well as the matter of what Dr Gross has not published, a matter of something she had published: namely the article from which example (3) is taken. This article, as I have said, was candid and in one way it was prudent too. For what better way could there be, of disarming in advance any possible intellectual objection to what you say, than to announce - especially when it is true - that you are not in the intellect business at all, just in the power business? Still, you would have thought that this announcement might be held very seriously against a candidate for a university lectureship in philosophy. Which only shows how much you know about the present Sydney Faculty of Arts!

Of the seventeen permanent members of the School of Philosophy, eleven did take the deepest exception to this article of Dr Gross. On this ground, as well as on certain others, they were of the opinion that her appointment would be "unacceptable in any circumstances." Their opinion, in those very words, was conveyed to the selection-committee. Even on the committee itself the majority of philosophers were of this opinion, and expressed it with all possible clearness. Never mind: it takes more than trifles like these to turn the feminist juggernaut aside. The committee recommended Dr Gross's appointment by a majority of two to one. And I cannot emphasise too strongly that there was nothing in the least unrepresentative about this selection -committee. On the contrary, all the interested parties agree that one would have got the same result from just about any committee of the Faculty of Arts.

The second vacancy was also a tenurable lectureship. Here again the Department wished to appoint a certain internal candidate. Nor was this the first attempt to do so: an attempt in 1984 to appoint this same candidate to a tenurable position was in fact one of the things that led to the exodus of permanent staff in that year. In this case the competition from external candidates was stronger still, and indeed, in the opinion of the majority of philosophers both in the School and on the committee, it was so strong as to be irresistible. Nevertheless, - but it cannot really be necessary for me to complete this story, any more than it can be necessary to mention the sex of the Department's candidate. True stories about recent appointments in Arts at Sydney quickly become very monotonous.

Popular religions are always divided into warring sects, and it should go without saying that there is no love lost among the various sects in General Philosophy. Between the Marxists and the feminists, and between the semioticians and the Marxists, relations are bad. Each group has formed a just estimate of the intellectual quality and conduct of the others. Liberals often take comfort from such divisions as these. They should not, at least in this case, because the ranks close quickly enough whenever it is important for them to do so.

There was a striking instance of this recently, when an attempt was made to compel General Philosophy to amalgamate with the Department of Traditional and Modern Philosophy. Faced with this threat Dr W. Suchting, who is one of General Philosophy's Marxists, supported on the selection-committee the two women whose appointments I have just recounted, even though he had been, until the threat of amalgamation arose, among their severer critics. And when a former colleague twitted him with this aboutface, Dr Suchting was candid enough to reply: "Your trouble, X, is that you have never been a Party man." He was probably not referring to any specific political party, and if he was, it does not matter exactly which one. More likely he had in mind just the general Marxist-Leninist injunction, to keep the organisation in being at all costs. Whichever it was, Dr Suchting's implied explanation of his own behaviour was no doubt the true one; which will illustrate not only the ability to close ranks, but also the general ethos, of the Department of General Philosophy.

Radiation-leaks and outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease can be stopped. The disaster in Arts is far more important than those things, but it is not obvious that it can be stopped at all. If there is any politically-possible way of stopping it, it would probably begin with the re-introduction (imperative anyway) of fees, for Arts students at least. This would greatly improve the quality of students, and at the same time greatly reduce their numbers. The way would then be open for similarly reducing the numbers, and improving the quality of Arts staff.
On its own, of course, this would only serve to cut our losses.

But if even a quarter of the money which is at present wasted on Arts were to be diverted to scientific faculties, there would be great positive gains as well: gains to the nation, as well as to knowledge.



Afterword: Professor Elizabeth Grosz (formerly Gross) now (2005) is Professor in the Department of Women's and Gender Studies, Rutgers University.
Update: Miranda Devine's column 29 Jan 2005.
 
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Whitecoast,

In the thread titled "Jewish History, Jewish Religion - Israel Shahak's shocking revelations", you wrote about Judaism:

WC said:
It's like someone says "every time we try communism it fails" and gets the response "gee maybe we weren't practicing communism hard enough!" And to think this cumulated with a state in the middle east that now has nuclear weapons...

Can you see that this spot-on observation you made about Communism also perfectly applies to Neodarwinism?
 
A good example is when Stove discusses some idiot thinker who advanced the theory that altruism was somehow instilled in a naturally non-altruistic society by certain elites. He presents the theory quite dryly, and just when you begin to wonder "hm, could there be something to it?", Stove writes in the next paragraph: "Have you ever heard anything more ridiculous than that?" When I read that, I almost spilled my coffee laughing!! And what a liberating laughter that was! Because no, he doesn't "weigh pros and cons", or treats this theory with a respect it doesn't deserve. He just calls it out for the bullshit it is. Finally!! When you begin to doubt your own experience, you begin to engage in endless sophistry with your gaslighter, Stove just gives him a roundhouse kick - "you're welcome". But he doesn't only do that: he goes on and shows precisely why it's ridiculous and doesn't add up. It's just brilliant. And as opposed to works by many other philosophers, it's truly useful. It's uplifting, liberating, interesting and an overall catharsis. At least it was for me.

I resonate with this experience. His take on Dawkin's "Selfish Genes" is just invaluable! It's quite the reading to recover your humanity!
 
I'm not entirely sure what you mean here, but I feel the urge to defend Stove :) Take it for what it's worth, but "Darwinian Fairytales" might be the most impressive philosophical work I've ever read. That doesn't mean we should take everything Stove writes as Gospel truth (obviously), but for me, he is definitely one of the unsung heroes in intellectual history. I wonder how many more there were over the centuries - thinkers who saw what's going on, but whose voices weren't heard, and then eradicated from the canon.

I was only inferring a possible attitude. I don't personally think that about Stove. He's highly intelligent.
 
Here's a recent news item about a discovery about how the brain works, or rather, how science doesn't understand how the brain works, and points to the non local nature of mind. How might neo-Darwinists spin this one?


Despite major scientific breakthroughs, the brain largely remains a mystery, and the team from Case Western Reserve University have added to it with their latest paper on a self-propagating ‘wireless’ communication they encountered that can jump across different sections of the brain.

This slow periodic activity can generate electric fields which ‘switch on’ neighboring cells briefly, allowing for chemical-free communication across gaps in the brain. The team managed to simulate communication across completely severed brain tissue while the separate pieces remained in close proximity.
 
This also jives with my own experience - I guess I speak for many formerly atheist-materialist members when I say that the very idea that there is something higher going on, something more than pure materialism and purposeless evolution, completely changed my life and blasted my heart open. This was when I first stumbled upon the material here. Perhaps your path was different though.

Your "default mode" seems to be "intellectual combat", the same mode one can witness in online debates between various camps: you read a criticism of your position, take it to be a criticism of you, and then your mind automatically goes into a frenzy to find loopholes, to reframe the questions, to show how your position was misunderstood, how your "opponent" could be wrong, how you can "debunk" the criticism and so on. You then take all kinds of shortcuts to "save your ego" and end up defending positions you yourself maybe don't even believe in, and revert to "stock" arguments and vague thinking that are really below you. I could be wrong of course, but since I know this phenomenon from my own thinking patterns, this seems to be going on with you here.

I can relate to both! As with so many other discoveries on this forum, finding out others are going through the same processes at their own level is liberating, loneliness is ever farther through this journey.

The essay is indeed brilliant! I had a great laugh at example 1. I like his style, it's down-to-earth, straightforward and fun. Promising for the book!

I lasted 6 months at uni and chose linguistics, psychology, and sociology at the time. I was 23 instead of 18 as most because I decided to go back to school at that time, after reading SHOTW, I thought it was the answer. It might be for some, I'd rather evolve through here though.
In retrospect, I can see how powerful are those influences on such young minds. They just copy and copy it all. There's no critical thinking learning and deep-rooted ideas will form there. The institutions hold a firm grip on your elephant indeed.
I had an introduction to Semiotics, but right there he put it in an all new light! Pretentious incomprehensibility! Well, his examples are gold. Thanks for this.

While thinking about the matter you might want to take into account the I-Ching for 2019
I assume it is not available on the public forum since I cannot access the link provided, though the abstract might already be enough of a meditation for this year.
 
That approach is often taken by people in the grip of an ideology that they "just believe" because "everyone knows its true" because "some authority said it was true". Generally speaking, things that "everyone knows are true" are partial or complete BS.

I agree.

It's interesting that you have to go back to Copernicus to find an incidence of a whole scientific complex or belief that was scrapped for something better. Can't you find something more recent?

Copernican Revolution is a very common word choice to describe paradigm shifts because it was one of the earliest and did, literally, involve a change in worldview. Not sure why you're asking because of how off-topic this is, but more recent ones could include catastrophism, the new ID critcisms of ND, skepticism about low-fat guidelines, electric universe cosmology/astrophysics, germ theory, general relativity succeeding newtonian models of gravity...

The point here, Whitecoast, is that everywhere you look at the theory of natural selection, you find nonsensical and illogical statements, over and over again, statements that neither make any logical sense nor map to observable reality. The problem, therefore, is not that these people are trying to figure out how species evolved, it's that they insist on using a theory that, REPEATEDLY, not only fails to explain how species evolved, it provides the best evidence that their foundational premise of natural selection, on which their house of cards is built, is WRONG. And yet, they insist, and insist and insist, and defame and denigrate anyone who points out the fecklessness of their theory and the abusive tactics they use to protect it.

Okay, well I concede the idea that squirrel calls are evidence of natural selection is false.

Why don't YOU provide some evidence for that view? Because it is undoubtedly an accurate view. You, like anyone with a decent amount of self-insight, should be able to come up with LOTS of examples where you cherry pick data to suit your own needs. Yet you want us to do it for you?

How long have you been on this forum? How much of the psychological reading have you done? If you don't know that you, as a human being, tend to engage in selection and substitution of premises MUCH of the time, then you haven't learned much. There seems to be very little self-doubt in you whitecoast, and that's a problem. What part of Gurdjieff's 'man is a machine' did you not apply to yourself? All of it?

I kind of feel like you answered your question in the first paragraph with your second paragraph; namely, in that I can't and don't see myself. But I guess that was your point.

Say you did this, and then say that science does that, and then say that Dawkins is right about 80% of something. Do you actually think you're making any kind of valid point here?

Stop waffling and show HOW mutation + natural selection explain 60% or 80% of evolution. Talk about a straw man argument!!

Stove's book kind of goes over some of the reasons why the additional parts of the theory were necessary to explain observations that weren't part of Darwin's original thesis. I mean he thinks they're insufficient to account for all nature's variation, and he would be right. All I was saying it was sufficient in at least some other areas. And I just added the numbers for illustrative purposes. Putting numbers of that nature to something as complex as ecosystems is reductionistic and kind of a large can of worms when you consider how many ways there are to quanitfy this or that. You tend to see statistical quantification like that more often when systems are more stripped down, like in laboratory environments where variables are much easier to control.

I can look at interstellar space through a telescope, observe the movements of stars and the light and radiation they emit and devise a grand philosophical explanation of HOW and WHY they are doing those things. I am correct about what I see, but there is no reason to believe that my philosophical theory is also correct. Why, because it's a THEORY! NOT based on any objective knowledge of understanding of the true nature of those things. Natural selection and mutation happen, the explanation as to WHY and HOW they happen is a philosophy, a BELIEF, and if I am wrong in that belief then the fact that I can see their functions is of little significance, because ANYONE can see that.

Okay. So, what you're saying is that a lot of the time when I see manifestations of the theory of, say, inclusive fitness, that is an artifact of my perception of the world? And that there are other explanations out there which could be more true, and explain more of the variation observed in altruism and cooperation? I know ID lends itself well to explaining the origins of life and the like. I wonder what ID has to say about squirrel calls or eusocial shrimp, or if there's still a lot to learn on that end of things...

In this case, he didn't even look in the mirror, but just insisted that he's not the kind of person who could ever have a blue dot on his face.

You know Joe, I would by lying if I didn't say this is one of the most bizarre and surreal mirrors I've ever received. And honestly the more I try and think about all these things said to me, the less certain I get about whether I've even made any inroads at all.

Silly line of discussion. The universe is not just all materialism. Say the moon was made of blue cheese....

Well this was in response to luc's comments about the consequences of living in a material universe. I suppose the crux of what I was trying to get at was even if there is no externally imposed meaning by designers, we still need to create our own meaning in life, our own values, etc. Because we need those things like air. So I suppose for a sizeable few years of my life I just accepted the performative contradiction. So it's from this perspective where I just don't get why people had such trouble with the idea of a material universe. I know all the intellectual problems with it, and it has been debunked repeatedly by science and revelation and even a lot of my own personal experience. But the grooves are still there, like the feeling I could survive psychologically in a nihilistic universe. I think that is less true now than it was, say, 10 years ago. But I wonder what influence this may have had on my instinctive substratum.

Is that meant to be some kind of philosophical statement? Because it makes no sense whatsoever. What a person believes has a VERY direct impact on the progress and evolution of his/her life.

I suppose what I had in mind about this was that our emotional and moral faculties play a large role in our attitudes and values, arguably more than thinking in many people (they are machines, etc), and some people can find ways to justify certain things with X belief or Y belief, as Haidt has discusses in his book.

Your "default mode" seems to be "intellectual combat", the same mode one can witness in online debates between various camps: you read a criticism of your position, take it to be a criticism of you, and then your mind automatically goes into a frenzy to find loopholes, to reframe the questions, to show how your position was misunderstood, how your "opponent" could be wrong, how you can "debunk" the criticism and so on. You then take all kinds of shortcuts to "save your ego" and end up defending positions you yourself maybe don't even believe in, and revert to "stock" arguments and vague thinking that are really below you. I could be wrong of course, but since I know this phenomenon from my own thinking patterns, this seems to be going on with you here.

Yeah, unfortunately I'm familiar with the pattern as well. I think I may have exhibited it either in whole or in part. I did become pretty incensed from your first reply to me, telling me to go read Stove after reading and thinking what I did of him.

The next step would be something JBP always suggests: try to make our arguments stronger. If you think you found a "weak spot" or "way out", reformulate the argument so that it addresses the issue. If you think you were misinterpreted, ask yourself why that has happened, and make a sharp distinction between your original words and the new thoughts that you come up with to "save" your position. Don't go after the weakest elements in our arguments, but take in and think through the things that seem strongest to you. And so on.

I do my best not to back down from intellectual challenges, because it's in that fire that you do get stronger. But even when I do argue back about something (if I see a problem with something), that doesn't mean I'm not internalizing some of the things which I didn't see problems with. I may not bring it up or verbally acknowledge it if it's still an emotionally charged debate, I guess because of pride.

Another thing I notice I can do in everyday conversations is, if I find a flaw in an argument for something, even if I believe the balance of facts and logic is in favor of it, I may still bring the point up anyway. Hence why I felt the need to mention again and again that I believed in ID, just not for Stove's reasons against ND. There's also an earlier conversation I've had with Joe talking about if there's a premature consensus starting to form to try and push back just to be sure all the bases have been covered. I know there's a fine line between that and contrarianism for its own sake, which I have been guilty of in the past, but not for a long, long time, unless there's some other triggering component.

Another example would be a response I felt like giving to Joe's recent post about scientists discovering "wireless" communication, after he said, "Here's a recent news item about a discovery about how the brain works, or rather, how science doesn't understand how the brain works, and points to the non local nature of mind. How might neo-Darwinists spin this one?" Even though I believe the mind is non-physical, and that supporters of ND disagree with that, I felt like pointing out that non-local doesn't mean exactly the same thing as non-physical (moreso it means action at a distance), and that the article just talked about neurons stimulating one another through the electrical fields they generate, and how that doesn't seem like anything ND-believers don't already believe in about what's possible in physics.

Try to be simple, clear and HONEST in the points you make to others. To do that, you might have to spend some time being honest with yourself first about those points.

That's what I always try and do. If something I say isn't clear and I feel I'm misunderstood, I try and say it clearer. I was a little bothered when my offers to explain things more clearly, in case I didn't explain well enough or there were some things others didn't quite understand, were construed in such a pejorative manner a few times. I can be reactive sometimes, which I know can make people put defenses up, but I AM and always have been serious about building bridges of understanding.

But more to the point, a theory that predicts complete, obvious, utter nonsense should be questioned, to say the least. There's also the issue philosophers of science call the "scope" of a theory: the larger the scope, the more likely it is to be wrong. And Darwin's theory has an incredibly large scope. If Darwin had just said "look, in certain very limited circumstances, random variation and natural selection could produce this or that specific observable effect", no problem! But alas, he didn't; it would be useless for the materialist devils anyway if he had framed it that way. His schizoidal mind wanted to explain the whole emergence of complex life! All of it! And that is the reason it leads to such utterly ridiculous predictions, like the ones Stove rightly calls Darwinists out on.

I think this is a fair assessment.

The only way out for the Darwinian would be to say that a whole bunch of altruists came into being via mutation at once, at the same time and place; then they formed a group of altruists and were better able to survive. To call that scenario "unlikely" is giving it too much credit; "impossible" might fit better. So the burden of proof is on you: what, exactly, precisely, was the evolutionary pathway here? What genes were altered, exactly? How did that produce altruism? What are the odds? What were the different stages? How could the first stage - a mild altruism, let's say - be of any benefit? If it was full-blown altruism all at once, how is this possible? How did the organisms profit from it, like, precisely? Etc.

Interesting question. Here's what I think a ND proponent would say to that. The first altruistic animal in a population would be at certain disadvantage. The second, less so. The third, less so. And so on. So you are right in saying that the first would be less likely to survive to reproduce. That is a statistical argument, so there will be more incidents of it not surviving than surviving. This is still greater than zero probability. So when looking at populations with several altruistic traits (which survived the initial bottleneck) there would also be even more altruistic traits that you're not seeing, having been squelched initially. There's also the consideration that the more altruistic a population is, the less selectively disadvantageous a more altruistic mutation is, since they're less likely to get steamrolled. This is, as Joe said, a theory.

As for details about the evolutionary path there, I suppose you'd look for the neurological basis for the altruistic behavior, isolate and sequence proteins, find out where their DNA came from (a gene duplication? Some chromosomal change?) and what changes it underwent, possibly comparing to other homologous proteins in other populations, species, or genuses. You would have no way of knowing whether the changes themselves were due to random UV light hitting the DNA, or if changes were directly made by higher intelligences, like God or hyperdimensional forces. Because of the materialism of many ND proponents, they see the latter an impossibility, so by process of elimination conclude that, however unlikely it is, the random solution must be true. :rolleyes: My learning re: parapsychology and the existence of non-material information has actually done more to convince me of the design in life than anything else I've encountered, although Behe and the like are certainly icing on the cake.

But alas, I don't. Look: either I have free will, or I do not. If I have, then I'm not 100% controlled by my "own nature", whether selfish or altruistic. That means in every situation I can decide which path to take, no matter my "own nature". But the belief that I just came into existence by "random mutation", and the whole package that is usually sold with it (God doesn't exist, there is nothing higher, there is only matter and no mind, etc.), then I just revert to my default mode of behavior. Perhaps this default mode is "altruistic" in some way, so that's good. But it would still completely halt my spiritual development. I wouldn't change - just acting in accordance with my "own nature". Even worse: we know that in this world we are "programmed" to be on the wrong track, so our default mode is actually detrimental.

This also jives with my own experience - I guess I speak for many formerly atheist-materialist members when I say that the very idea that there is something higher going on, something more than pure materialism and purposeless evolution, completely changed my life and blasted my heart open. This was when I first stumbled upon the material here. Perhaps your path was different though.

Thanks for sharing. My road was slightly different. I discovered and came to appreciate virtue and self-cultivation before I learned more about the supernatural parts of reality. Kind of like what Laura said, about how even if those things weren't mandated in any way by higher intelligences, they were still worthwhile values by her assessment and would live in accordance with them anyway.

Interesting you put it that way. Maybe you should reverse it: "Maybe my beliefs are corrected, and people learn something"...

I was referring to my own beliefs being corrected, fwiw.

Anyway, thanks for listening.
 
A good example is when Stove discusses some idiot thinker who advanced the theory that altruism was somehow instilled in a naturally non-altruistic society by certain elites. He presents the theory quite dryly, and just when you begin to wonder "hm, could there be something to it?", Stove writes in the next paragraph: "Have you ever heard anything more ridiculous than that?" When I read that, I almost spilled my coffee laughing!! And what a liberating laughter that was! Because no, he doesn't "weigh pros and cons", or treats this theory with a respect it doesn't deserve. He just calls it out for the bullshit it is. Finally!! When you begin to doubt your own experience, you begin to engage in endless sophistry with your gaslighter, Stove just gives him a roundhouse kick - "you're welcome". But he doesn't only do that: he goes on and shows precisely why it's ridiculous and doesn't add up. It's just brilliant. And as opposed to works by many other philosophers, it's truly useful. It's uplifting, liberating, interesting and an overall catharsis. At least it was for me.
I resonate with this experience. His take on Dawkin's "Selfish Genes" is just invaluable! It's quite the reading to recover your humanity!

I resonated with what Luc said here too.

I've been in many C-suite meetings where you think after a long while that "I must be the sucker in the room" only to shake it off and realize that most of the people in the room are swallowing a "line" and scrambling to make it work for them.

Unreal.
 

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