Debating a question to the C's about the Hamas attack

palestine

Jedi Master
Hello,

As the title suggests, I would like to start a discussion about the Hamas attack - specifically one point - and submit it to members for debate, and possible eligibility for a futre session as a question.

The question is: "How come that we never heard any Palestinian two cents about the Hamas attack of October 7".

My reasoning goes as follows:

A 2002 article features:

Palestinians arrest al-Qaeda ‘poseurs’ (2002) :

“The Palestinian Authority arrested a group of collaborators who confessed they were working for Israel, posing as al-Qaeda operatives in the Palestinian territories ,” said the official, on condition of anonymity.

He said the alleged collaborators sought to “discredit the Palestinian people, justify every Israeli crime and provide [Israel with] reasons to carry out a new [military] aggression in the Gaza Strip.”

And so... If I was a Palestinian in Gaza, the above would have become a "common factor around". Palestinians should know, since this event, that such things are taking place. It would become main stream in the streets of Gaza... First thing they would say in case of "a terrorist event featuring Palestinians" would be the 2002 occurence...

But here it is... Never have I heard of any single Palestinian statement including the exact words "Hamas attack" - since October 7.

I believe that it is reasonable than to expect some "takes", such as:
  • Well, I don't know, that Hamas attack.. It made all become destroyed
  • Oh! Those idiots! I lost all after this attack
Reasonably, I say. Because. The very only statement that should have been reasonably issued, by at least ONE Palestinian, is simply:
  • Guys! It's not us who did that! The "Hamas" is NOT Palestinians!
There is nothing. Even in the independant news outlets such as The Electronic Intifada - nothing. I am still looking for it.

This follows up the C session in which it has been stated that the Hamas attack was an inside job. Digging into it, at some time, made me realize that indeed, Palestinians are NOT the Hamas. It appears that "genuine Palestinian resistance" is something of the past.

And so, I would reasonably expect to have been hearing one guy or two, bursting in anger, against those so-called Palestinian representatives"... who literally triggered the levelling down of Gaza and the extermination, on camera, of 300'000 people - 70% of women and kids.

But no. There hasn't been any testimony of anger against the Hamas- or at least not enough. Again, we should reasonably expect a higher proportion of such statements than anything else.

And so.

Another problem which popped up in my research is that of the actual testimonies. There are. Many. And they exclusively say the same thing:
  • And they killed my cousin. And they killed my aunt (...)
  • I lost 12 family members since the invasion of Gaza
  • ...
Such mono-testimonies have been attracting my attention.

Thinking about this, made me hypothesize that objective two cents would be present in Arabian. Arabian media plateforms, etc... But. Seems that "The Electronic Intifada" has been extensively relaying Palestinian voices - so they should have been in touch with direct Arabian statements.

Let me know what you think - of course, I would be eager to be suggested reasons to explain the above. I have several, but I will keep those for later discussion with pleasure!

Thank you! Since the C session mentioning an inside job, I have been spectating those events with another lens.
 
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To be extremely precise, I found ONE voice - but it was in 2024, October 2024 (so late after the events).
 
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I think it is a complex issue. Joe has written a lot about this on SOTT since 2002 and how HAMAS was funded and promoted by Israel with Israel routinely making own goal attack as justification for going on a killing spree. The massive genocidal retaliation from Israel has only radicalised people. It is understandable that HAMAS only got strenghtened by this and got many new members as millions who lost everything including family members might have felt to do something to fight back and revenge what has happened. In such a climate, there is also not likely to be many Palestinians who will speak out against HAMAS as it is likely viewed as the only one fighting on for their cause even if it appears like a lost cause. The more Palestinians who voice support for HAMAS, the more Israel will use it to say that all Palestinians are terrorist and thereby 'justify' the continued genocidal killings. ADDED: A vicious cycle.
 
We don't do debates here. We discuss.
Hello, I believe that this is due to my limitation in the English language - I meant discussing. In French, debating has such connotation, - what I had in mind with the use of debating was making it "open to discussion" surely. Hmmm I understand that a debate would be akin to some "Vote at the end" concept. Sorry to have misused the word!
 
I think it is a complex issue. Joe has written a lot about this on SOTT since 2002 and how HAMAS was funded and promoted by Israel with Israel routinely making own goal attack as justification for going on a killing spree. The massive genocidal retaliation from Israel has only radicalised people. It is understandable that HAMAS only got strenghtened by this and got many new members as millions who lost everything including family members might have felt to do something to fight back and revenge what has happened. In such a climate, there is also not likely to be many Palestinians who will speak out against HAMAS as it is likely viewed as the only one fighting on for their cause even if it appears like a lost cause. The more Palestinians who voice support for HAMAS, the more Israel will use it to say that all Palestinians are terrorist and thereby 'justify' the continued genocidal killings. ADDED: A vicious cycle.
Hello Aeneas,

Thank you for your reply.

When reading your lines, something immediately came to my mind and I feel I could be best understood with stating my approach about the Hamas:

I do believe that the Hamas is entirely in the hands of Israel - as a tool, created from scratch. Such conceptual angle produces a really odd analyze of some sorts. I am quite bolder in my views of the Hamas than most of what is casually discussed.

For example, when you say:

there is also not likely to be many Palestinians who will speak out against HAMAS

I agree but I see that I don't share the uphill reasoning ...
The massive genocidal retaliation from Israel has only radicalised people. It is understandable that HAMAS only got strenghtened by this and got many new members as millions who lost everything including family members might have felt to do something to fight back and revenge what has happened.

... in the sense that it would not entirely factor in the basic bits we could gather in regard of The Hamas, namely "created from scratch", "hijacking Palestinian elections", and the C session "it was an inside job". Trying to conciliate those three bits provides with a very logical and possible picture. I have stopped there - at this exact location.

And if you look at how Israel has been behaving - especially during the year after that attack - well... It shows debauchery in free wheels. Somehow, Israel never could intervene in Gaza like they did. I believe this is for a reason. And here, we suddenly see Israel accessing its old megalomaniac & irrealizable dream... How odd! But we know that there is no free lunch in the universe, and this, is all but some payed lunch. Israel just rushed to its various low-level mediatic nonsense, Israel just carried on with all the untreated psychomud it had in the head. And we saw the result.

What you say makes much sense - and my first impulse would be akin. But I would stop entirely factoring some elements. If I do, , for example, that Palestinians would say "well, at least they kicked those Israelis in the foot, once"... Or some "we are ready to loose because this has become too difficult". "The world should know - will know at least". But. I do believe that we are not in such waters.

Somehow, what I see is that without the C input, we would automatically locate our perspective with a basic "this time, Palestinians were fed up - so they decided to symbolically act". This would imply that Palestinians one day gathered around a table and said: "ok, guys we will now act and do something". [Remember that this is hypothetical and that I believe such thing did not happen]. Then, they would ponder various things. "Attacking Netanyahu in his bed?". Etc etc. And so, what they come up with is ... Well, I could sum some of it, but it's completely nonstrategical. For example, the Palestinians allegedly paraglided above the fence, then, when on their way back, "they spot a rave party". They... decide to make a stop, and abduct people. (...) Things like that. Well, all that which remain would be then "symbolic" and so no real material objective. And here... Those guys around the table... Some would say: "do you know what happens when we throw a stone?". "If we do anything consequent, well, you know what will happen?".

And so, Palestinians would deliberetedly have put at stakes, the lives of 300'000+ people, 70% of whom are women and kids. I don't believe they would have carrie don anything, because such outcome was precisely identified.

Sorry if I am quite bold in my statements. My mind is hard wired with the C session cable 😇 I set some "it was an inside job" and have been developping from it.

I am grateful that you hinted me at some roads. My above sayings may be, at first glance, considered as some bold "I don't agree you-re wrong", but know that it's not the case. It's "look, that's what I have in mind". I am sure that you understand this but just in case, since it's my first posts here 😇 I would like to progress in the discussion of those matters! Big thank you for your eventual reply !
 
I think the error in your reasoning, if I understood you correctly is to think that Hamas is 100% controlled by Israel. The beginning was started by Israel but Israel doesn't need to have more than a few imbedded within Hamas for it to work. Israel would only need a few to whom they gave the ideas of what to do and then Israel could add to the initial attack by dressing up as Arabs and making sure the kill number was big via the use of helicopter gunships which did a 'good' job in making it into a massacre which could be sold to the world media. Israel was prepared for it and let it happen so they could unleash their genocidal plan for a greater Israel.

Personally I don't see what more we could get from the C's apart from the curiosity value or a SPA response.

I am sure that you understand this but just in case, since it's my first posts here 😇
Well, since you have been here before according to your intro post, then it is only technically your first posts here. So let us not play more "newbie" than necessary.
No I had a complicated nickname going by know_yourself_1234
 
The beginning was started by Israel but Israel doesn't need to have more than a few imbedded within Hamas for it to work.
Well... You know I wished it to be so but I overall see a too easy road leading to the consideration of it as being a 100% stuff

Israel would only need a few to whom they gave the ideas of what to do and then Israel could add to the initial attack by dressing up as Arabs and making sure the kill number (...)
I definitely see Israel as having limits to their intelligence. The spectacle that they offered to the world last year hints at some form of basic STS entropy - I would say that they are quite low-level. What you hint at implies some form of "careful scientific ponderation" - the exactictude of STS - and I know those "guys" are quite precise and skilled. But it stopped matching with the carnage... I am puzzled. Could be there are some STS above them, pulling the strings, and that Israel would be right below, and acting "less mathematically".

Hmmm and so I would like to ask you what would be the "way" to conciliate the above feeling. I can accept that I am wrong about it. But.. I cannot see another way. Thanks for an idea. (I understand that it would be overall about the idea that Israel is in full control ratehr than stupid psychos giving in to basic impulses - thus less in charge).

Well, since you have been here before according to your intro post, then it is only technically your first posts here. So let us not play more "newbie" than necessary.
Yes, but rounding the angles any way in case of a basic situation that could ever happen. No newbie stuff, cool. Thank you. I am happy that we can talk then.

I would be happy to ask you, then, how do you do? How does the forum do? I see a lot of people and it's impressive. The layout is great.

:-)
 
Hmmm and so I would like to ask you what would be the "way" to conciliate the above feeling. I can accept that I am wrong about it. But.. I cannot see another way. Thanks for an idea. (I understand that it would be overall about the idea that Israel is in full control ratehr than stupid psychos giving in to basic impulses - thus less in charge).

As Aeneas indicated, it only takes a small fraction of infiltration to create havoc. Have you read Political Ponerology?

From 2012 "The political leadership of the Palestinian Islamist group, Hamas, has moved from Syria to Egypt and Qatar." With emphasis on leadership, who then drag others along.

The Hamas leadership would (is) have been well studied by Israel (Mossad) in terms of how best to co-opt them where they could. To make use of them. One need look no further than the leadership of other countries (what was suffered through with Clinton, Bush, Biden and Obama and any number in the EU or elsewhere), and it is not the whole of society that is moved, just components that have great influence over the whole landscape of issues, or they can create issues (false flags et cetera) where reaction is assured. They can play the long game and attract the capital to do it.
 
Thank you for trying to answer my question. I have been reading Lobaczewski and was wondering if we shouldn't pick another template for this specific Hamas ponerization phenomenon. Isn't there anything illustrating an artificial creation from scratch?

The Hamas leadership would (is) have been well studied by Israel (Mossad) in terms of how best to co-opt them where they could.
The idea is that there would be no need to "co-opt them" - or situations of "co-opting". It would be a tool entirely in their possession. Something like that.

I perfectly understand a model going by "leveraging a movement in skilled ways". This would make those Hamas guys some obscure bearded guys, indeed, hidden in caves - "sincere fighters" and even "genuine fighters", "sending rockets", etc... But there isn't such thing, I believe.

Joe Quinn has been debunking "Palestinians sending rockets at Israel":

Benjamin Netanyahu’s ‘Telegenically Dead Palestinians’ – A Lesson in Pyschopathy (2014) :
Mr. YUSUF: No. No. This has nothing to do with firing rockets because there is no rockets fired. There are collaborators, sometimes they fire based on the Israeli asking them maybe to fire some of these home-made projectiles. They know that Hamas did their best to protect the border and not to let anybody firing rockets.

SIEGEL: But you’re saying that when rockets have been fired out of Gaza, you’re saying that those are being fired by Israeli collaborators whom the Israelis are arranging for them to do that?

Mr. YUSUF: Actually, we all – let me try me to check if there is anybody actually – we check with those political and militant group who are really showing their commitment. And when we check, well, they – all them denied any of them been firing rockets. So, who been firing these rockets? We don’t have an explanation except from those Israeli collaborators

This was not the first time that a Palestinian politician claimed that alleged attacks on Israelis were in fact the work of Israeli agents. On many occasions, the Palestinian leadership has pointed the finger at Israel as the real ‘rocketeer’. Once in a while, the Israeli military at least admits that rockets were not fired by Hamas. At other times, it admits that it deliberately lied about Palestinian rocket attacks to justify ‘reprisal’ missile strikes. The first recorded claim of Israeli manufacturing of Palestinian terrorism came from the venerable Yasser Arafat in 1995 when he claimed that a suicide bombing attributed to Palestinians was the work of Israelis.

(…)

In a 2001 interview with several leading Italian publications, Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat went into some detail regarding the genesis and operation of Hamas. To Corriere della Sera on Dec. 11, he said:

“We are doing everything possible to stop the violence. But Hamas is a creature of Israel which, at the time of Prime Minister [Yitzhak] Shamir [the late 1980s, when Hamas arose], gave them money and more than 700 institutions, among them schools, universities and mosques. Even [former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak] Rabin ended up admitting it, when I charged him with it, in the presence of [Egyptian President Hosni] Mubarak.”

In an interview with L’Espresso on Dec. 19, Arafat said:

“Hamas was constituted with the support of Israel. The aim was to create an organization antagonistic to the PLO [Palestine Liberation Organization]. They [Hamas] received financing and training from Israel. They have continued to benefit from permits and authorizations, while we have been limited, even [for permits] to build a tomato factory. Rabin himself defined it as a fatal error. Some collaborationists of Israel are involved in these [terrorist] attacks. We have the proof, and we are placing it at the disposal of the Italian government.”
He has been covering as well "Palestinian suicide bombers":

Joe QUINN – «The myth of the Palestinian suicide bomber»
While the Israeli government has turned the Gaza strip and West Bank regions of Palestine into virtual prison camps, there is one section of the Palestinian community that appears to enjoy unhindered freedom of movement and a blind eye form the Israeli camps guards: "suicide bombers".

Today, one of these rare breed allegedly managed to get all the way down to the southern tip of Israel, to the Red Sea resort town of Eilat.

At 9.45 this morning (Eilat time), we are told that a "Palestinian suicide bomber" detonated his explosives in a small bakery, killing three people and himself.

(…)

As with every other alleged Palestinian "suicide bombing", inconsistencies and contradictions abound.

What is clear is that in order to accept the claim that this was the work of a "suicide bomber", we must dispense with all critical judgement and think in simplistic black and white terms. Palestinians = terrorists. Israelis = peace keepers and defenders. We are being asked to believe, without question, the claims of the Israeli security forces, organisations that are founded on the 'principles' of deception and subterfuge.

What is beyond doubt is that it would be very easy for Israeli intelligence to stage a fake "suicide bombing". A bomb could be concealed in the chosen location, and when the chosen patsy enters or approaches, the bomb is detonated, with Israeli security forces quickly arriving on the scene to declare the cause and tie up any loose ends. What the world public must decide is if a section of the Israeli government possesses the political will to carry out such attacks. Basically, would our political leaders "do that". To answer that question, all that is required is a little reading on the details of Western state counter-insurgency tactics over the past 50 years. Those who do so, even the most sceptical, invariably find it impossible to deny the FACT that Western governments have, on many occasions and in some cases as a matter of ongoing policy, sacrificed the lives of innocent civilians in order to further political goals.

Most people have by now been sufficiently programmed to believe that "Islamic terrorists" wish to destroy Israel (…)

And so... We have this one too:

Palestinians arrest al-Qaeda ‘poseurs’ (2002) :

“The Palestinian Authority arrested a group of collaborators who confessed they were working for Israel, posing as al-Qaeda operatives in the Palestinian territories ,” said the official, on condition of anonymity.

He said the alleged collaborators sought to “discredit the Palestinian people, justify every Israeli crime and provide [Israel with] reasons to carry out a new [military] aggression in the Gaza Strip.”

Overall, what we've got is Israel staging:
  • the rockets
  • the "suicide" bombings
  • - we even got "The Hamas attack" in 2002 - perfect same scenario
It indeed becomes quite heavy...

And so, I am scrutinizing a little bit more Israel and its propension of developping complex ways for [you-just-name-it]. The level of red flag becomes quite high - there is an upside down of something and I believe that the "infiltration model" may appear not relevant as a first-stage approach.

What remains if we strip Palestine of rockets, suicide bombers and terrorist attacks? A perspective coming by is that they got stones. And, indeed, Israel has been issuing a law against "stone throwing":

Ylenia GOSTOLI - "Oz: Israel's detention prison for Palestinian children"
In July, the Knesset passed an amendment to the Penal Code that raised the maximum sentence for stone-throwing to 20 years.

In 2015, Israel's priority becomes "addressing stones" - in term of "danger from Palestinians".

"Palestinian genuine resistance" becomes barely a myth in such painting. What remains is some open air giant prison without any way for anything. 100% under control.
 
As Aeneas indicated, it only takes a small fraction of infiltration to create havoc. Have you read Political Ponerology?

From 2012 "The political leadership of the Palestinian Islamist group, Hamas, has moved from Syria to Egypt and Qatar." With emphasis on leadership, who then drag others along.

The Hamas leadership would (is) have been well studied by Israel (Mossad) in terms of how best to co-opt them where they could. To make use of them. One need look no further than the leadership of other countries (what was suffered through with Clinton, Bush, Biden and Obama and any number in the EU or elsewhere), and it is not the whole of society that is moved, just components that have great influence over the whole landscape of issues, or they can create issues (false flags et cetera) where reaction is assured. They can play the long game and attract the capital to do it.
But there is another element that bugs me in all the latest events.

We have been noticing very harsh statements; Netanyahu and other Israelis have gone public with very bold statements - "those animals". Well, this is not new, actually, and a search showed me that "death to the arabs" has been quite a frequent one.

At some point, we notice some Israeli holliganers, landing in Amsterdam, and shouting such slogans.

I am truly wondering about Israel's true mental state. Some years of "thou-animal" and "death-to-the-arabs" should "do the trick". I don't believe anybody could go on for 20 years with such thing in mind without "becoming it". Hence, my suspicion about Israel and a potential skillful leveraging of whatever. It looks like that they have been able to cozily expand from their ideas, far, without supervision, and as they pleased.

The only way to counteract this is to go to church (or alike). There are not that many roads starting from there. Their citizens have gone public with the slogans, etc. They all believe they can afford it. And internationally speaking, I believe that Netanyahu is just a fool - and seen as a nut job by many. They shouldn't be able to refrain, any more, somehow, from the "brutalizing animals" concept. That's because they have been picking up a road with zero accountability - and such has consequences. Eh. Nobody came by for decades and the result is here. OSIT

I think that I am over-considering Israel in term of the basics - they may not have those, actually - and gone to plain "free lunch"
 
Hello, I believe that this is due to my limitation in the English language - I meant discussing. In French, debating has such connotation, - what I had in mind with the use of debating was making it "open to discussion" surely. Hmmm I understand that a debate would be akin to some "Vote at the end" concept. Sorry to have misused the word!

No problem. In English, debating has connotations of rhetoric and sophistry. In other words, the person who can be most clever with their words or play on people’s emotions can be the one who wins a debate, but their ideas or arguments may be false.

We use discussion because it lacks these connotations and implies more of a cooperative endeavour to figure out the truth.
 
In other words, the person who can be most clever with their words or play on people’s emotions can be the one who wins a debate, but their ideas or arguments may be false.
Thank you, I understand better and I should not have employed this term. Hmmm reading your lines, I am sincerely wondering about the relevance of "debating". It looks like a reduction in regard of "the basic way". I am not up date as to sophism but attach a strong STS/negative relation to its mechanism.
 
I am not up date as to sophism but attach a strong STS/negative relation to its mechanism.

Historically, sophistry came from skepticism about whether we can know anything objective about life and our reality. With no true or false, all that remains is whose opinion is most persuasive.
 
Historically, sophistry came from skepticism about whether we can know anything objective about life and our reality. With no true or false, all that remains is whose opinion is most persuasive.
I see, some form of relativism pushed to the extreme.

all that remains is whose opinion is most persuasive
Frigthening!
 
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