Did we evolve to eat meat?

[RyanX]

Does anyone have evidence from experiment to back up the statement that children will choose to eat a banana or apple before eating barbecued beef ribs or baked rosemary chicken? My observation is that children nearly always prefer cooked meat to fruit salad. I think children salivate over cooked meats and not the living animal and loading the question in this manner betrays the writer's agenda.

I think it really depends on the child and their individual proclivities. I have two daughters. One would reach for the ribs, drumsticks and other meats first before anything else. While the other one I practically have to force her to eat her modest portion of meat; she would definitely go for the fruit salad first. Food tastes are more psychological than based on any sort of evolutionary instinct, I think. There are likely a lot of factors involved with kids.

 

[Dirk]

I think one of Dirk's stumbling blocks is hinted at above. He's imagining a lot, but not looking at what is.

Just because I use the word 'imagine' one time, doesn't mean I don't look to what is.

veggies irritate our GI tract

It indeed seems the case that some veggies irritate the digestive tract. Certainly cruciforous vegetables. Other veggies only irritate an irritated digestive tract, in other words, they are perfectly fine for a healthy digestive tract.

meat and fats are easier on our system and they feed our brain efficiently

Our brains CONSIST of fat, but RUN on sugar.

We certainly didn't evolve on an all fruit diet.

I don't claim we did. Greens were an essential part of the diet.

 

[Mountain Crown]

[quote author=Dirk]Our brains CONSIST of fat, but RUN on sugar[/quote]

It is my understanding that the body first uses fat to produce glucose and when consuming sugar it converts it to fat.

 

[Joe]

Food tastes are more psychological than based on any sort of evolutionary instinct, I think

And I think that is the bottom line. Trying to compare humans to monkeys or our monkey ancestors is pointless. We are not monkeys (most of us anyway) and our evolution did not follow a "linear" path. There is no point therefore (are you listening Dirk?) in trying to come to a definitive conclusion about whether or not we "evolved" to eat meat. We probably began to eat meat and fat for any number of different reasons. The fact is, we eat it now and it is good for us.

 

[Cosmos]

[quote author=Dirk]Our brains CONSIST of fat, but RUN on sugar

It is my understanding that the body first uses fat to produce glucose and when consuming sugar it converts it to fat.
[/quote]

sugar is bad for us, at least it's a central part of the diet here, right?

 

[Dirk]

It is my understanding that the body first uses fat to produce glucose

It only uses fat to produce glucose if there is not enough glucose from other sources.

and when consuming sugar it converts it to fat.

Only when a caloric excess is eaten.

 

[Dirk]

Food tastes are more psychological than based on any sort of evolutionary instinct, I think

And I think that is the bottom line. Trying to compare humans to monkeys or our monkey ancestors is pointless. We are not monkeys (most of us anyway) and our evolution did not follow a "linear" path. There is no point therefore (are you listening Dirk?) in trying to come to a definitive conclusion about whether or not we "evolved" to eat meat. We probably began to eat meat and fat for any number of different reasons. The fact is, we eat it now and it is good for us.

Perceval, I am listening and I see your point. I will have to read The Wave to understand it more deeply. Only the last 6 words I can only interpret as a relative fact: being thirsty in the middle of the desert with no-one around a bottle of coca cola in your backpack is very healthy. A bottle of water would be healthier though, but optimal sources are not always around.

 

[Dirk]

sugar is bad for us

refined sugar is bad for us, yeah.

 

[mcb]

Does anyone have evidence from experiment to back up the statement that children will choose to eat a banana or apple before eating barbecued beef ribs or baked rosemary chicken? My observation is that children nearly always prefer cooked meat to fruit salad. I think children salivate over cooked meats and not the living animal and loading the question in this manner betrays the writer's agenda.

Actually, I think I missed part of the original statement -- I was up past my bedtime.
I really do find it hard to imagine me as a child choosing fruit over prepared meat. I largely avoided fruit (except when forced by my parents to eat it, early on) for 45 years until I went vegan for a couple of years, and I still limit the types and amount of fruit that I eat to only what is agreeable (which isn't much--enough berries to make Ultrashakes). Maybe I was a weird exception, but I really don't think so. I think the only thing intrinsically attractive about the fruit is the sugar content. Unfortunately, there are other things in the fruit that "fight back" and even a child can tell this.

Which makes me wonder about processed "baby food" made with fruit...

 

[Dirk]

Does anyone have evidence from experiment to back up the statement that children will choose to eat a banana or apple before eating barbecued beef ribs or baked rosemary chicken? My observation is that children nearly always prefer cooked meat to fruit salad. I think children salivate over cooked meats and not the living animal and loading the question in this manner betrays the writer's agenda.

Actually, I think I missed part of the original statement -- I was up past my bedtime.
I really do find it hard to imagine me as a child choosing fruit over prepared meat. I largely avoided fruit (except when forced by my parents to eat it, early on) for 45 years until I went vegan for a couple of years, and I still limit the types and amount of fruit that I eat to only what is agreeable (which isn't much--enough berries to make Ultrashakes). Maybe I was a weird exception, but I really don't think so. I think the only thing intrinsically attractive about the fruit is the sugar content. Unfortunately, there are other things in the fruit that "fight back" and even a child can tell this.

Which makes me wonder about processed "baby food" made with fruit...

I think it would be great if everybody had the chance to taste a fully ripe mango, without their tastebuds being distorted by all kinds of spices and stimulants.

Most fruit eaten in western society isn't nearly as ripe as should be btw, that gives it a sour or a starchy taste and lots of people come to hate fruit because of that

 

[truth seeker]

Do you have a source of that statement?

Would it matter at this point if we did? Either what you've been pointed to is proof enough or it isn't. It just doesn't seem as if there will ever be enough proof for you because you've already decided that you're not interested. If you were, you'd try it yourself.

However, if I eat no overt fats at all (as in the 80/10/10 diet) I can eat all the sugar I want, without the spacy feeling. Is there something to the combination of fats and fruits that is the culprit instead of fruit being solely the culprit?

I have to ask, other than being on that diet, are you connected in any way to that organization?

I'd also like to say that you seem to have a strong be right program - meaning that you feel the need to be right to the point that you'll go round and round with someone in the hopes that you'll drain them enough so that they concede. Aside from the energy to be gotten from feeding on others, what is it you're really hoping to gain?

 

[truth seeker]

Which makes me wonder about processed "baby food" made with fruit...

Funny you should say that - I tried some about a week ago (don't ask). It was supposedly natural and had raisins, pears and apples. It was cloyingly sweet and I couldn't believe that this is what's given to children.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Dirk, your responses are just reinforcing the observations already made: you're nitpicking, missing the crux of the matter, and in general, wiseacring. Not sure if this'll help you see yourself, but here it goes:

I think one of Dirk's stumbling blocks is hinted at above. He's imagining a lot, but not looking at what is.

Just because I use the word 'imagine' one time, doesn't mean I don't look to what is.

I'm talking about something more subtle. The flavor of your posts is that you're simply exercising your mind for the sake of exercising it, i.e. mental masturbation. That takes the form of nitpicking and hypothetical theorizing motivated more by the impulse to 'debate' and 'contradict' than to see the crux of the matter and form an hypothesis based on facts. Sure, you can see some facts and are trying to put them together, but that's not the point. You're wiseacring, debating, and not SEEing the point. For example, at the bottom of your reply you wrote:

We certainly didn't evolve on an all fruit diet.

I don't claim we did. Greens were an essential part of the diet.

[/quote]

My statement was partially in response to this statement of yours, and it wasn't my intention of putting words in your mouth (where did I STATE that you claimed we evolved on an all fruit diet? Answer: I didn't):

This article seems like an excellent way to advocate fruitarianism with the addition of leafy greens for adequate supply of minerals. No meat necessary.

See how you're just theorizing and playing with words here? The point isn't that facts can be manipulated in various ways to come to different conclusions. That's just wiseacring. The point is that there are certain facts and certain observations that simply point to various conclusions. As Perceval just wrote:

There is no point therefore (are you listening Dirk?) in trying to come to a definitive conclusion about whether or not we "evolved" to eat meat. We probably began to eat meat and fat for any number of different reasons. The fact is, we eat it now and it is good for us.

It's also a fact that our bodies respond AS IF we were still living in a time where we only ate fruit during the summer, which triggered insulin resistance, thus building up a fat reserve for the winter, when food would be scarce. It's the FACT that fruits are available year round, and that we eat things we aren't meant to eat (like wheat and dairy), that our rhythms and health are so screwed up. The fact that fruits are easy to digest is just that. But when you factor in the way our bodies respond, based on tens of thousands of years of habituation/evolution as a species, it paints a picture. Either you can see that picture or you can start theorizing and come up with "plausible" scenarios. But those scenarios will be based on imagination and self-suggestion, not what IS.

meat and fats are easier on our system and they feed our brain efficiently

Our brains CONSIST of fat, but RUN on sugar.

That's true. What's your point? Our bodies are designed to get sugar in the summer, and eat meat all year 'round. If you mess with the cycle, you mess with your health. Sure, it COULD be some other way, on some other planet, but it ain't.

 

[Seamus]

Dirk, your responses are just reinforcing the observations already made: you're nitpicking, missing the crux of the matter, and in general, wiseacring.

This would be much more interesting if you at least tried to back up what you're saying.

Maybe you could answer a few questions that I have.

I'll give it a shot.

Dogs can survive on dog food made primarily from grain, does that mean that meat is unnecessary for them?

I don't know, but yes, it said that dogs can live on vegan diets, where cats cannot. I don't know details about the consequences.

Please give me a source for this.

If fruit is such great brain food, why aren't chimps as smart or smarter than us?

Kleiber's law? They also eat bark, which requires them to have large digestive tracts and thus smaller brains? Just a guess, but according to the research this seems logical?

Who says chimps eat bark, besides you? Again please give us a source for this. Give us a link to another website, or show us a video or a picture of Chimpanzees eating bark, or cite a book.

Also, I think you just indirectly agreed with burying the vegetarian hypothesis. Just in case you missed it you said that chimps:

have large digestive tracts and thus smaller brains

They probably eat more fruit than most humans.

No, my point is that an optimal diet of humans consists of more fruit than an optimal diet for chimps.

You're basing this on the 80/10/10 diet correct? Is there any scientific evidence to support the hypothesis that a diet consisting of 80% carbohydrates, primarily coming from fruit is a healthy diet? Do you know of any culture, anywhere in the world, where 80% of the people's diet comes from fruit? Just curious.

If fruit is as good as meat, why did the ancestors of humans ever start hunting and eating meat?

Climate changes maybe? Where fruit was there before, now it wasn't there anymore and they needed another source of food?

Ok, I think we can agree on this. :)

If fruit is as good as meat, why do chimps eat insects and sometimes hunt monkeys?

Because they have other digestive tracts then we do. Fruit is not 'as good' as meat, just different.

I am arguing that meat is a better core source of calories and nutrition than Fruit. A diet based on meat and animal fat is better for us than one based on fruit. Like your 80/10/10 diet for instance. Prove me wrong.

If fruit is as good as meat, why do tropical peoples eat meat, when they can have all the fruit they want?

We can have all the fruit we want to do, it's right there in the supermarket. But we don't either. So the answer lies in the habits.

Why go through all the trouble of hunting for or raising meat?

Why do people go through the trouble to get drugs? Because it stimulates the body, like meat, and temporarily alters one's state of consciousness.

I agree with you that most of the way we eat lies in our habits, and I think it has been well established on this forum that foods effect our brains and consciousness.

I've heard of getting a "sugar rush," but I can't remember anyone ever telling me that they're on a wicked "meat rush" or "fat rush". I'll have to pay attention to how I feel next time I eat a steak.

 

[Dirk]

[quote author=Dirk]
I don't know, but yes, it said that dogs can live on vegan diets, where cats cannot. I don't know details about the consequences.

Please give me a source for this.
[/quote]

I just have this from heresay, but you can google it and find plenty of sources.

Who says chimps eat bark, besides you? Again please give us a source for this. Give us a link to another website, or show us a video or a picture of Chimpanzees eating bark, or cite a book.

http://answers.yourdictionary.com/animal-life/what-do-chimps-eat.html

Also, I think you just indirectly agreed with burying the vegetarian hypothesis. Just in case you missed it you said that chimps:

have large digestive tracts and thus smaller brains

With what did I agree? I agree that it appears that humans have smaller digestive tracts than other primates, just not that with the conclusion that humans should eat meat because of it. Having more fruit instead of bark is lighter on the digestive tract too and that additional energy then could hypothetically have been used for brain development. So every diet change that reduces the digestive load in comparison with other primates is, according to Kleiber´s law, a valid argument for brain development. Meat is only one possibility. Do you understand what I mean here?

You're basing this on the 80/10/10 diet correct? Is there any scientific evidence to support the hypothesis that a diet consisting of 80% carbohydrates, primarily coming from fruit is a healthy diet?

Not 80% percent, a minimum of 80%. Read the 80-10-10 Diet for scientific evidence.

Do you know of any culture, anywhere in the world, where 80% of the people's diet comes from fruit? Just curious.

I know of no such culture nowadays, apart from small groups isolating themselves from the rest of the world in tropical communities to adapt the 80/10/10 lifestyle. One hint, for instance, is that marathon runners do carb loading before a run. This indicates that they perform best when eating tons of carbs.

If fruit is as good as meat, why did the ancestors of humans ever start hunting and eating meat?

Climate changes maybe? Where fruit was there before, now it wasn't there anymore and they needed another source of food?

Ok, I think we can agree on this. :)

Jeeey.

If fruit is as good as meat, why do chimps eat insects and sometimes hunt monkeys?

Because they have other digestive tracts then we do. Fruit is not 'as good' as meat, just different.

I am arguing that meat is a better core source of calories and nutrition than Fruit. A diet based on meat and animal fat is better for us than one based on fruit. Like your 80/10/10 diet for instance. Prove me wrong.

Just because the caloric and nutritional density in terms of volume and mass is higher in meat, doesn´t mean it is ´better´. Though it may be a better choice in days of survival when volume and mass of food is an issue of storage. But you can also dry fruits and greens and mix it with some snow when the time is there.

If fruit is as good as meat, why do tropical peoples eat meat, when they can have all the fruit they want?

We can have all the fruit we want to do, it's right there in the supermarket. But we don't either. So the answer lies in the habits.

I've heard of getting a "sugar rush," but I can't remember anyone ever telling me that they're on a wicked "meat rush" or "fat rush". I'll have to pay attention to how I feel next time I eat a steak.

More stimulated, more aggressive. Like a drug. But the difference will be most obvious if you haven´t eaten meat for a while.