Discussion with a psychopath - Sticking to the core

Pierre

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As clearly shown in the Materazzi-Zidane thread, one of the efficient tools psychopathic individuals use is diversion.

Moderator's note: See: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=2279

By reading this thread and others, you can see how subtly those contributions manage to drift from the core of the discussion.

At least, two factors are at work during those diversion moves :

1/ psychopathic individuals won't make statements far away from the core topic, usually the contribution will be relatively related to the core topic though it might not adress anymore the key issues relating to this core topic. In addition, those contributions are usually interesting and are (ot at least seem) consistent. So it triggers a very present dimension of individiuals : interest, desire to learn, research of a "global picture".

2/ In addition, those statements are usually presented in a very seductive way. This seduction process is certainly linked to the hypnotic talents noticed amongst psychopath, this absolute certainty about what is being stated. It triggers again an important aspect of our mind (doubts, research for certainty,...)

Etymologically, "seduction" comes from the latin word "seducere" : to bring away in order to obtain favors.

Coluche, a famous French humorist said "when you ask a question to a politician, at the end of his answer you don't even remember what your question was. You simply have to replace "politician" with "psychopathic individual" and you have it.

This seductive diversion moves are a major threat for the ones who want to conduct an objective and constructive discussion.

Some (scientific) tools might help reducing the negative effects of this seductive diversions :
* keeping in mind the core of the topic
* checking the relevance of the statements with the topic
* checking the logics of the links between the statement and the core issue
* ...

However, as we know, psychopathic individuals have also many other tools (focus on minor mistakes, correlations twistings, lies, emotional games,...)
 
Axel said:
Coluche, a famous French humorist said "when you ask a question to a politician, at the end of his answer you don't even remember what your question was. You simply have to replace "politician" with "psychopathic individual" and you have it.
Which indicates to us that most politicians - or at least "good" politicians who can do what is described in this quote - are very likely psychopaths.
 
Laura said:
Which indicates to us that most politicians - or at least "good" politicians who can do what is described in this quote - are very likely psychopaths.
Indeed ! That's a good way to identify a "good politician".

Unfortunately, I guess politicians don't have the monopoly of psychopathy.
 
Axel_Dunor said:
As clearly shown in the Materazzi-Zidane thread, one of the efficient tools psychopathic individuals use is diversion.

<snip>

This seductive diversion moves are a major threat for the ones who want to conduct an objective and constructive discussion.

Some (scientific) tools might help reducing the negative effects of this seductive diversions :
* keeping in mind the core of the topic
* checking the relevance of the statements with the topic
* checking the logics of the links between the statement and the core issue
* ...
I agree. Once the moves are recognised, then it is easier to come up with a 'defense' against them, and I think this is as good a place to start as any:

(from the "redifining the terms of engagement' thread http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=2043)

George K Simon said:
Accept no excuses. Don't buy into any of the many reasons (rationalisations) someone may offer for aggressive, covertly aggressive behaviour, or any other inappropriate behaviour. If someone's behaviour is wrong or harmful, the rationale they offer is totally irrelevant. The ends never justify the means. So, no matter how much an "explanation" for a problem behaviour seems to make sense, don't accept it. Remember that the person offering an excuse is trying to maintain a position from which they should be backing away (...)

Judge actions not intentions. Never try to "mind-read" or second-guess why somebody is doing something, especially when they are doing something hurtful. There is no way for you to really know, and in the end, it's irrelelevant. Getting caught up in what might be going on in an aggressor's mind is a good way to get sidetracked from the really pertinent issue. Judge the behaviour itself. If what a person does is harmful in some way, pay attention to and deal with that issue. (...)

Make direct requests. When asking for things, be clear about what you want. Use "I" statements. Avoid generalities. (...) Making requests direct and specific has two payoffs. First, it gives the manipulator little room to distory (or claim they misunderstood) what you want or expect from them. Second, if you don't get a direct, reasonable response to a direct, reasonable request, you already know that the manipulator is fighting with you (...)

Accept only direct responses. Once you've made a clear, direct request, insist on a clear, direct answer. Whenever you don't get one, ask again. Don't do this in a hostile or threatening way, but respectfully assert the issue you raised is important and deserves to be forthrightly addressed. (...)

Stay focussed in the here and now. Focus on the issues at hand. Your manipulator will probably try to throw you off track with diversionary and evasion tactics. Don't let these tactics steer you away from the problem behaviour you're trying to confront. (...)

When confronting aggressive behaviour, keep the weight of responsibility on the aggressor. This may be the most important thing to remember, If you're confronting an aggressor about some inappropriate behaviour, keep the focus on whatever they did to injure, no matter what tactics they might use to shift the ball back into your court. Don't accept their attempts to shift blame or responsibility. Keep asking what they will do to correct their behaviour. Ignore whatever rationalisations they might make and don't let them sidestep the issue. (...)

When you confront, avoid sarcasm, hostility, and put-downs. Aggressive personalities are always looking for an excuse to go to war. So they will construe any sort of hostility as an "attack" and feel justified in launching an offensive. Besides, attacking their character "invites" them to use their favourite offensive tactics such as denial, selective inattention or blaming others. Don't back away from necessary confrontation, but be sure to confront in a manner that is up-front, yet non-aggressive. Focus only on the inappropriate behaviour of the aggressor. (...)

Be prepared for consequences. Always remain aware of the covert-aggresive's determination to be the victor. This means that, if for any reason, they feel defeated, they're likely to try anything in order to regain the upper hand, and a sense of vindication. It's important to be prepared for this possibility and to take appropriate action to protect yourself. (...)

Be honest with yourself. Know and "own" your own agendas. Be sure of what your real needs and desires in any situation are. Its bad enough that you can never be sure what a manipulator is up to. But decieving yourself about your own needs can really put yourself in double jeopardy. (...)
 
That's very instructive. Thanks a lot.

Do you also have information about how to "protect" from the look of a psychopathic individual ? That's not a very rational thing compared to discussion mangement technics. However I sometimes perceived a lot of distabilizing power in those people eyes.

I tried a few times something that was quickly mentioned by Don Juan (apparently not related with psychopathy) : staring at the left eye.

Well it didn't work at all !
 
Axel_Dunor said:
Do you also have information about how to "protect" from the look of a psychopathic individual ? That's not a very rational thing compared to discussion mangement technics. However I sometimes perceived a lot of distabilizing power in those people eyes.
Not too sure, you'll find most psychopaths will look at you to size you up as prey/possible helpful in the future/no use/of immediate help. To be honest you don't want to be too pre-occupied with how they are looking at somebody. It's more about being able to protect yourself through knowing how they operate and what to expect. As per several other threads, try reading several of the books mentioned.

Recently I've been through Martha Stout's "The Sociopath Next Door", Robert D Hare's "Without Conscience - The Disturbing World Of Psychoaths Among Us", Paul Babiak & Robert D Hare's "Snakes In Suits - When Psychopaths Go To Work" and Albert J Bernstein's "Emotional Vampires - Dealing With People Who Drain You Dry". I'd recommend the first three although the first two have a lot in common, the last puts everything into "Vampire Categories", it's almost a form of 'light entertainment' with some jokey references to vampires throughout.

Add to the list 'Political Ponerology' and Hervey Cleckley's "The Mask Of Sanity". The latter is available as a free download in pdf from here:

http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm
 
I thought this individual was a good example of a psychopath, not a terrifically intelligent one, but he may be being 'used' by cleverer ones, or even 'handled' by agents (who may be psychopaths themselves).

What this individual's actions says to me is: "I'll support anyone, from any particular party, as long as they supported my decision to murder my disabled wife who became a 'nuisance' in my life". He is currently 'supporting' the Democrats, but has mad 'overtures' to a Republican as well.

:D I thought I'd leave the 'e' out here deliberately... Its just funny when that happens.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/16/washington/16schiavo.html?hp&ex=1155787200&en=87077282f26c049e&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Husband Takes Schiavo Fight Back to Politicians
Bob Child/Associated Press

By ABBY GOODNOUGH
Published: August 16, 2006
CLEARWATER, Fla. - The curtains are still drawn tight at Michael Schiavo's home on a quiet cul-de-sac here, and in some ways he remains as private and unknowable as when his wife Terri was the focus of a fervent national debate last year about life and death.

Yet Mr. Schiavo, who won a scorching legal battle to remove his brain-damaged wife's feeding tube, also remains furious at lawmakers in Tallahassee and Washington who intervened in the case. Hence the creation last winter of TerriPAC, a federal political action committee aimed against politicians who tried to stop Ms. Schiavo's death, and the debut of Mr. Schiavo, a newly remarried, self-described normal guy, as a political weapon in this year's midterm elections.

He is an unpolished speaker, sometimes abandoning sentences midstream or grasping for the right words. He did not vote or follow the news until recently, he says, and had never heard of a PAC until strangers suggested he start one late last year.

Still, Mr. Schiavo flew to Connecticut last month to help Ned Lamont, who defeated Senator Joseph I. Lieberman in the Democratic primary. Mr. Schiavo reminded voters that Mr. Lieberman had supported an emergency bill asking a federal court to consider reinserting Ms. Schiavo's feeding tube days before she died in March 2005. Ms. Schiavo's parents, who adamantly opposed her death and rejected Mr. Schiavo's claim that she would have wished it, had pleaded with Congress and President Bush to intervene.

Mr. Schiavo also hand-delivered a caustic letter to Representative Marilyn Musgrave, Republican of Colorado, who outspokenly opposed Ms. Schiavo's death, and endorsed her Democratic opponent, Angie Paccione. He attended a bloggers' convention in Las Vegas in June to raise his profile in the online pundit world, being host of a "privacy roundtable" at the Riviera Hotel.

"He is the human face of government intrusion," said Ms. Paccione, explaining why she accepted Mr. Schiavo's offer to appear with her at a news conference July 12. "We need more individual citizens like him to step up and put an end to it. People trust somebody who looks like them, talks like them and has their experience."

Representative Jim Davis, a Tampa Democrat running to replace Gov. Jeb Bush, a Republican, widely distributed a letter that Mr. Schiavo wrote after endorsing him in June. Mr. Davis was among the most vigorous opponents of intervention in the Schiavo case, criticizing it on the House floor before Congress enacted the now-famous measure that President Bush cut short his vacation to sign.

Mr. Schiavo said his hastily written book, "Terri: the Truth" (Dutton Adult, 2006), was meant to be his final say on the events that dominated his life for 15 years. But Democratic operatives looking toward the November elections saw gold in his lingering anger.

When those operatives encouraged Mr. Schiavo not to disappear from the public eye, the man who had kept his mouth tightly shut throughout his quest to end his wife's life - once even jumping an eight-foot-high fence behind his house to avoid the news media throng out front - decided he had more to share.

Driving him, he said, were television and newspaper clips from the end of the case, which he did not scrutinize until several months after his wife died.

"I didn't pay attention to a lot of it in the last couple weeks because I spent my time with Terri," Mr. Schiavo, 43, said at his preferred meeting place, a T.G.I. Friday's near his house in a neighborhood misleadingly called Countryside. "But when I saw it all, I thought, this is absolutely out of control.

"I had to remind people that what this government did to me, they can do to you."

Mr. Schiavo's PAC has made no direct solicitations, but it has raised more than $26,000 in eight months, mostly in contributions of $100 or less made through its Web site, www.terripac.com. The committee is nearly broke at the moment, having contributed a total $4,000 to five Democratic candidates in Florida, Colorado and Texas and spent most of the rest on travel, Web site design and production of a video to help with fund-raising down the road.

"We are not a big financially powerful PAC yet," said Derek Newton, a Democratic consultant in Miami who sold Mr. Schiavo on the PAC and now serves as its director. "We are just looking at what makes sense and how we can do it."

Like Mr. Schiavo, Mr. Newton, 34, is learning as he goes. At first he did not realize that federal PAC's must disclose donations only of $200 or more, and filed reams of unnecessary paperwork. Though working with Mr. Schiavo could perhaps raise his own profile, Mr. Newton, who ran a mayoral race in Miami in 2004, said he was motivated only by disgust for the politics of the Schiavo case.

The PAC is not just devoted to politics. Its Web site also provides information about living wills, which Ms. Schiavo did not have when her heart briefly stopped one night in 1990, causing her brain damage. Organizers say information on eating disorders will be added to the site.

Mr. Schiavo believes his wife's cardiac arrest was due to a vitamin deficiency brought on by bulimia, though her autopsy could not prove that. His former in-laws, Robert and Mary Schindler, have accused him of strangling her, though the courts rejected that claim.

The Schindlers and their surviving children, Bobby and Suzanne, are raising money through the Terri Schindler Schiavo Foundation Center for Health Care Ethics, a nonprofit group whose stated goal is to protect "the rights of disabled, elderly and vulnerable citizens against care rationing, euthanasia and medical killing."

The foundation collected $379,855 in contributions last year, its lawyer said. Bobby Schindler, its director, said his family was not paying attention to Mr. Schiavo's activities.

"Our family believes our fight with Michael is over," he said.

Mr. Schiavo will focus on Florida candidates like Mr. Davis in the coming months, Mr. Newton said, but he may also offer help to James Webb, the Democratic challenger to Senator George Allen of Virginia; Claire McCaskill, the Democratic challenger to Senator Jim Talent of Missouri; and several Congressional candidates in Pennsylvania, his home state.

Mr. Schiavo said he would also make overtures to State Senator James E. King Jr., a Jacksonville Republican whose primary opponent, Randall Terry, led protests outside Ms. Schiavo's hospice in the weeks before her death and rallied the anti-abortion movement against it.

A spokeswoman for Mr. King, whose North Florida district has many religious conservatives, said: "We are not making the events that surrounded the Terri Schiavo case here in Florida a focus of our race."

Indeed, some campaign officials worry that joining up with the polarizing Mr. Schiavo could cut both ways. One person with a campaign that enlisted his help said the campaign received a number of angry phone calls afterward.

One of five brothers, Mr. Schiavo said he was raised to be a fighter, a quality on display throughout his book, which was written with Michael Hirsh. In it, he acknowledges losing his temper a lot during his court battle and repeatedly attacks his former in-laws.

His appetite for combat, which helps explain why he would sacrifice some of the privacy he demanded while Ms. Schiavo was alive, is also evident in his intense gaze and in the words he chose for her gravestone: "I kept my promise."

Mr. Schiavo, who switched his voter registration to Democrat from Republican last year, said people had asked him repeatedly to run for office after his wife's death.

But while the prospect holds allure, he said he was content with a lower-key role for now. He married Jodi Centonze, whom he met and started dating three years after Ms. Schiavo's collapse, in January. He works three 12-hour shifts a week as a nursing supervisor at the Pinellas County Jail and helps raise his children, Olivia, 3, and Nicholas, 2.

"Maybe down the road," he said of becoming a political candidate. "Maybe when everybody understands and everything is fixed."
 
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