Disinformants? I'm not one, but are you?

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baffledking

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I'm new here. In fact, I only stumbled upon this website and podcast yesterday. I must say, the articles and interviews published and conducted here are some of the most well-written, well-spoken and well-produced pieces of alternative information I have found on the web.
It seems though, just from a cursory perusal of the information on this forum, that there is a heavy consensus that many of the more popular "conspiracy" researchers are, in fact, disinfo-agents employed by the "ruling elite" to lead people astray. Of course, the existence of disinformants in politics and war is a well-known fact and has many examples throughout history but in regards to the "truth movement" directly, if I may call it that, who exactly are we talking about here? David Icke seems to be a popular choice for disinformant as does Alex Jones. Icke's information is certainly hard to believe for most people and his steadfast confience in the reptilian agenda does seem to provide ground for accusations of disinformation. Alex Jones, on the other hand, is not as outlandish with his theories and he tends to, as far as I know, back up all of his accusations with documented, readily-available evidence. I have heard some accuse him of being a Jesuit agent, though I fail to see the point of his radioshow and website if that accusation were true.

Alan Watt, Michael Tsarion, and Jeff Rense, among others, have also been accused of being disinformation agents who are either wittingly or unwittingly putting out false information leading people away from the real truth. Such accusations have gotten so numerous that I am beginning to feel paranoid about every thing I read and see. Is Sign of The Times one more such source of disinfo?

It certainly seems not, but then again, we're living in a house of smoke and mirrors aren't we?
 
Yeah, smoke and mirrors describes it pretty well. Some days, it seems like a carnival fun house, too!

Probably the best way to try to get a handle on how we approach it would be to read these threads:

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=6885

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=3521

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=2887

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=1093

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=4216

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=4707&p=1

I know that a couple of them are pretty long, but it's worth it to see how the situation morphed and the ideas developed in response to same.

Figuring out "who's on first" is a big problem since we have this to consider from what we like to call "The Protocols of the Pathocrats":

8. Literature and journalism are two of the most important educative forces, and therefore our government will become proprietor of the majority of the journals. This will neutralize the injurious influence of the privately-owned press and will put us in possession of a tremendous influence upon the public mind .... If we give permits for ten journals, we shall ourselves found thirty, and so on in the same proportion. This, however, must in no wise be suspected by the public. For which reason all journals published by us will be of the most opposite, in appearance, tendencies and opinions, thereby creating confidence in us and bringing over to us quite unsuspicious opponents, who will thus fall into our trap and be rendered harmless.

9. In the front rank will stand organs of an official character. They will always stand guard over our interests, and therefore their influence will be comparatively insignificant. 10. In the second rank will be the semi-official organs, whose part it will be to attack the tepid and indifferent.

11. In the third rank we shall set up our own, to all appearance, opposition, which, in at least one of its organs, will present what looks like the very antipodes to us. Our real opponents at heart will accept this simulated opposition as their own and will show us their cards.

12. All our newspapers will be of all possible complexions -- aristocratic, republican, revolutionary, even anarchical - for so long, of course, as the constitution exists .... Like the Indian idol "Vishnu" they will have a hundred hands, and every one of them will have a finger on any one of the public opinions as required. When a pulse quickens these hands will lead opinion in the direction of our aims, for an excited patient loses all power of judgment and easily yields to suggestion. Those fools who will think they are repeating the opinion of a newspaper of their own camp will be repeating our opinion or any opinion that seems desirable for us. In the vain belief that they are following the organ of their party they will, in fact, follow the flag which we hang out for them.

13. In order to direct our newspaper militia in this sense we must take special and minute care in organizing this matter. Under the title of central department of the press we shall institute literary gatherings at which our agents will without attracting attention issue the orders and watchwords of the day. By discussing and controverting, but always superficially, without touching the essence of the matter, our organs will carry on a sham fight fusillade with the official newspapers solely for the purpose of giving occasion for us to express ourselves more fully than could well be done from the outset in official announcements, whenever, of course, that is to our advantage.

14. THESE ATTACKS UPON US WILL ALSO SERVE ANOTHER PURPOSE, NAMELY, THAT OUR SUBJECTS WILL BE CONVINCED TO THE EXISTENCE OF FULL FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND SO GIVE OUR AGENTS AN OCCASION TO AFFIRM THAT ALL ORGANS WHICH OPPOSE US ARE EMPTY BABBLERS, since they are incapable of finding any substantial objections to our orders. ONLY LIES PRINTED

15. Methods of organization like these, imperceptible to the public eye but absolutely sure, are the best calculated to succeed in bringing the attention and the confidence of the public to the side of our government. Thanks to such methods we shall be in a position as from time to time may be required, to excite or to tranquillize the public mind on political questions, to persuade or to confuse, printing now truth, now lies, facts or their contradictions, according as they may be well or ill received, always very cautiously feeling our ground before stepping upon it .... WE SHALL HAVE A SURE TRIUMPH OVER OUR OPPONENTS SINCE THEY WILL NOT HAVE AT THEIR DISPOSITION ORGANS OF THE PRESS IN WHICH THEY CAN GIVE FULL AND FINAL EXPRESSION TO THEIR VIEWS owing to the aforesaid methods of dealing with the press. We shall not even need to refute them except very superficially.

16. Trial shots like these, fired by us in the third rank of our press, in case of need, will be energetically refuted by us in our semi-official organs.
Then, of course, there is the issue of psychopathology. There are a lot of people who act as "effective agents" even if that is not their intention. This can be observed throughout history and can often be more damaging to any cause than a deliberate, planned, sabotage.

Most movements to improve the conditions of mankind failed due to lack of knowledge and because the opponent was underestimated. We hope to learn from a study of history and a comparison with current events to try to detect the patterns.

But even so, it is an inexact "science," at best. We make mistakes, but a close and careful scrutiny of the data generally helps a person to avoid the historical pitfalls to the greatest extent.

Hope this helps.
 
Hi baffledking. I'm new to this forum too. I joined after couple of years of reading the forum, SOTT, Cass and recommended books. "Cursory perusal" is not good enough - try to examine the material. Plenty or reading but I found it rewarding since it is backed up by solid research (and science) not consensus. Consensus is very often misleading. Links provided by Laura are good start.
 
baffledking said:
Is Sign of The Times one more such source of disinfo?
No, but ultimately that's something you have to decide for yourself. Spend a bit more time on the forum and find out! ;)
 
Wow, these discussions are not quick one-off blurbs. You really get down n' dirty with this stuff here. I'm learning a lot. To be honest, I had no idea there was so much finger pointing going on amongst the truthers.

One question I have about disinfo though:

Since most of the people who are waking up didn't necessarily start with SOTT but more likely with Alex Jones, David Icke or Jeff Rense....isn't the disinfo backfiring? i.e. leading too many horses to water?
I began by listening to David Icke at the suggestion of friend, and through him I found Alex Jones, through Alex Jones I found Rense and Makow and then eventually I stumbled upon Alan Watt's cuttingthroughthematrix.com by mistake while I was trying to read up on the philosopher Alan W. Watts. I found my way to SOTT by chance recently from a link on 911blogger.com In all probability, I wouldn't have made it here if it were not for the likes of David Icke and Alex Jones and I am sure many people share a similar history through the rabbit-hole.
 
baffledking said:
Since most of the people who are waking up didn't necessarily start with SOTT but more likely with Alex Jones, David Icke or Jeff Rense....isn't the disinfo backfiring? i.e. leading too many horses to water?
I began by listening to David Icke at the suggestion of friend, and through him I found Alex Jones, through Alex Jones I found Rense and Makow and then eventually I stumbled upon Alan Watt's cuttingthroughthematrix.com by mistake while I was trying to read up on the philosopher Alan W. Watts. I found my way to SOTT by chance recently from a link on 911blogger.com In all probability, I wouldn't have made it here if it were not for the likes of David Icke and Alex Jones and I am sure many people share a similar history through the rabbit-hole.
Well, yes I also started to be interested in these conspiracy matters through David Icke (not him only but you mentionned his name so...) a long time ago but I think it comes down to your personality and to what you're looking for : more knowledge about the world (and yourself) or more sacred cows.
 
BK said:
Since most of the people who are waking up didn't necessarily start with SOTT but more likely with Alex Jones, David Icke or Jeff Rense....isn't the disinfo backfiring? i.e. leading too many horses to water?
Oh, indeed! Very good point, too. We actually once sent Vincent Bridges $50 bux via paypal and thanked him for sending so many readers to our website via his defamation of our work. People who had that "something" inside would read his nonsense, get curious, and come and check it out for themselves and realize what a load of hooey he was writing.

There are two ways I think this works: 1) A well intended person who is unconsciously acting as an "agent of disinfo" - that to say, they just sort of lack something in either their drive for truth or their ability to "weed" and really ask questionss. This person attracts to themselves others who are "thinking out of the box." The ones who have the drive and ability mentioned above eventually find that they have more questions and are not quite satisfied with the answers, and move on. Others, of the same ilk as that individual (lacking that drive and ability), stick with them. 2) The pathological types who are simply blinded by hubris. Lobaczewski says a bit about the fact that such individuals are generally certain that everyone can be "converted," and are surprised to find out how few actually are. That's an important point. The following excerpts more or less outline the process at any social scale, so it is well worth reading:

May the reader please imagine a very large hall in some old Gothic university building. Many of us gathered there early in our studies in order to listen to the lectures of outstanding philosophers. We were herded back there the year before graduation in order to listen to the indoctrination lectures which recently had been introduced.

Someone nobody knew appeared behind the lectern and informed us that he would now be the professor. His speech was fluent, but there was nothing scientific about it: he failed to distinguish between scientific and everyday concepts and treated borderline imaginations as though it were wisdom that could not be doubted. For ninety minutes each week, he flooded us with naive, presumptuous paralogistics and a pathological view of human reality. We were treated with contempt and poorly controlled hatred. Since fun poking could entail dreadful consequences, we had to listen attentively and with the utmost gravity.

The grapevine soon discovered this person’s origins. He had come from a Cracow suburb and attended high school, although no one knew if he had graduated. Anyway, this was the first time he had crossed university portals, as a professor, at that!

“You can’t convince anyone this way!” we whispered to each other. “It’s actually propaganda directed against themselves.” But after such mind-torture, it took a long time for someone to break the silence. We studied ourselves, since we felt something strange had taken over our minds and something valuable was leaking away irretrievably. The world of psychological reality and moral values seemed suspended as if in a chilly fog. Our human feeling and student solidarity lost their meaning, as did patriotism and our old established criteria. So we asked each other, “are you going through this too”? Each of us experienced this worry about his own personality and future in his own way. Some of us answered the questions with silence. The depth of these experiences turned out to be different for each individual.

We thus wondered how to protect ourselves from the results of this “indoctrination”. Teresa D. made the first suggestion: Let’s spend a weekend in the mountains. It worked. Pleasant company, a bit of joking, then exhaustion followed by deep sleep in a shelter, and our human personalities returned, albeit with a certain remnant. Time also proved to create a kind of psychological immunity, although not with everyone. Analyzing the psychopathic characteristics of the “professor’s” personality proved another excellent way of protecting one’s own psychological hygiene.

You can just imagine our worry, disappointment, and surprise when some colleagues we knew well suddenly began to change their world-view; their thought-patterns furthermore reminded us of the “professor’s” chatter. Their feelings, which had just recently been friendly, became noticeably cooler, although not yet hostile. Benevolent or critical student arguments bounced right of them. They gave the impression of possessing some secret knowledge; we were only their former colleagues, still believing what those professors of old had taught us. We had to be careful of what we said to them.

Our former colleagues soon joined the Party. Who were they, what social groups did they come from, what kind of students and people were they? How and why did they change so much in less than a year? Why did neither I nor a majority of my fellow students succumb to this phenomenon and process? Many such questions fluttered through our heads then. Those times, questions, and attitudes gave rise to the idea that this phenomenon could be objectively understood, an idea whose greater meaning crystallized with time. Many of us participated in the initial observations and reflections, but most crumbled away in the face of material or academic problems. Only a few remained; so the author of this book may be the last of the Mohicans.

It was relatively easy to determine the environments and origin of the people who succumbed to this process, which I then called “transpersonification”. They came from all social groups, including aristocratic and fervently religious families, and caused a break in our student solidarity to the order of some 6 %. The remaining majority suffered varying degrees of personality disintegration which gave rise to individual efforts in searching for the values necessary to find ourselves again; the results were varied and sometimes creative.

Even then, we had no doubts as to the pathological nature of this “transpersonification” process, which ran similar but not identical in all cases. The duration of the results of this phenomenon also varied. Some of these people later became zealots. Others later took advantage of various circumstances to withdraw and re-establish their lost links to the society of normal people. They were replaced. The only constant value of the new social system was the magic number of 6 %.

We tried to evaluate the talent level of those colleagues who had succumbed to this personality-transformation process, and reached the conclusion that on average, it was slightly lower than the average of the student population. Their lesser resistance obviously resided in other bio-psychological features which were most probably qualitatively heterogeneous.

I had to study subjects bordering on psychology and psychopathology in order to answer the questions arising from our observations; scientific neglect in these areas proved an obstacle difficult to overcome. At the same time, someone guided by special knowledge apparently vacated the libraries of anything we could have found on the topic.

Analyzing these occurrences now in hindsight, we could say that the “professor” was dangling bait over our heads, based on the psychopaths’s above-mentioned specific psychological knowledge. He knew in advance that he would fish out amenable individuals but the limited numbers disappointed him. The transpersonification process generally took hold whenever an individual’s instinctive substratum was marked by pallor or some deficits. To a lesser extent, it also worked among people who manifested other deficiencies, also the state provoked within them was partially impermanent, being largely the result of psychopathological induction.

This knowledge about the existence of susceptible individuals and how to work on them will continue being a tool for world conquest as long as it remains the secret of such “professors”. When it becomes skillfully popularized science, it will help nations develop immunity. But none of us knew this at the time.

Nevertheless, we must admit that in demonstrating the properties of pathocracy in such a way as to force us into in-depth experience, the professor helped us understand the nature of the phenomenon in a larger scope than many a true scientific researcher participating in this work in one way or another. [...]

In order to comprehend ponerogenic paths, especially those acting in a wider social context, let us observe the roles and personalities of individuals we shall call “spellbinders”, who are highly active in this area in spite of their statistically negligible number. They are generally the carriers of various pathological factors, some characteropathies, and some inherited anomalies. Individuals with malformations of their personalities frequently play similar roles, although the social scale remains small (family or neighborhood) and does not cross certain boundaries of decency. Spellbinders are characterized by pathological egotism. Such a person is forced by some internal causes to make an early choice between two possibilities: the first is forcing other people to think and experience things in a manner similar to his own; the second is a feeling of being lonely and different, a pathological misfit in social life. Sometimes the choice is either snake-charming or suicide.

Triumphant repression of self-critical or unpleasant concepts from the field of consciousness gradually gives rise to the above-mentioned phenomena of conversion thinking, or paralogistics, paramoralisms, and the use of reversion blockades. They wind up streaming so profusely that they flood the average person’s mind. Everything becomes subordinated to their over-compensatory conviction that they are exceptional, sometimes even messianic. An ideology emerges, true in part, whose value is supposedly superior. However, if we analyze the exact functions of such an ideology in the spellbinder’s personality, we perceive that it is a means of self-charming, useful for repressing those tormenting self-critical associations into the subconscious. This ideology’s instrumental role in influencing other people also serves the spellbinder’s needs.

When they extrapolate their earlier experiences and thus believe they will always find converts to the ideology they propound, these spell-binders are not wrong. They only feel shock (or even paramoral indignation) when it turns out that their influence extends to a limited minority, whereas most people’s attitude to their activities remains critical, pained and disturbed. The spellbinder is thus confronted with a choice: either withdraw back into his void or strengthen his position by improving the effectiveness of his activities.

The spellbinder places on a high moral plane anyone who has succumbed to his influence and incorporated the experiential method he imposes. He showers such people with attention and property, if possible. Critics are met with “moral” outrage. It can even be proclaimed that the compliant minority is in fact the moral majority (Bolsheviks), since it professes the best ideology and honors a leader whose qualities are above average.

Such activity is always necessarily characterized by the inability to foresee its final results, something obvious from the psychological point of view, because its substratum contains pathological phenomena, and both spellbinding and self-charming make it impossible to perceive reality accurately enough to foresee results logically. However, spellbinders nurture great optimism and harbor visions of future triumphs similar to those they enjoyed over their own crippled souls. It is also possible for optimism to be a pathological symptom. In a healthy society, the activities of spellbinders meet with criticism effective enough to stifle them quickly. However, when they are preceded by conditions operating destructively upon common sense and social order; such as social injustice, cultural backwardness, or intellectually limited rulers sometimes manifesting pathological traits, spellbinders’ activities have led entire societies into large-scale human tragedy.

Such an individual fishes an environment or society for people amenable to his influence, deepening their psychological weaknesses until they finally join together in a ponerogenic union. [...]

It is a characteristic phenomenon that a high giftedness quotient, especially such measured by means of typical IQ tests, causes a man to be more immune to spellbinding activities only to a moderate degree. Actual differences in the formation of human attitudes under the influence of such activities should be attributed to other properties of human nature. The most decisive factor in assuming a critical attitude is good basic intelligence, which conditions our perception of psychological reality. We can also observe how a spellbinder’s activities “husk out” amenable individuals with an astonishing regularity. [...]

During stable times which are ostensibly happy, albeit marked by injury to individuals and nations, doctrinaire people believe they have found a simple solution to fix such a world. Such a historical period is always characterized by an impoverished psychological world-view, a schizoidally impoverished psychological world-view thus does not stand out during such times and is accepted as legal tender. These doctrinaire individuals characteristically manifest a certain contempt with regard to moralists then preaching the need to rediscover lost human values and to develop a richer, more appropriate psychological world-view.

Schizoid characters aim to impose their own conceptual world upon other people or social groups, using relatively controlled pathological egotism and the exceptional tenacity derived from their persistent nature. They are thus eventually able to overpower another individual’s personality, which causes the latter’s behavior to turn desperately illogical. They may also exert a similar influence upon the group of people they have joined. They are psychological loners who feel better in some human organization, wherein they become zealots for some ideology, religious bigots, materialists, or adherents of an ideology with satanic features. If their activities consist of direct contact on a small social scale, their acquaintances easily perceive them to be eccentric, which limits their ponerogenic role. However, if they manage to hide their own personality behind the written word, their influence may poison the minds of society in a wide scale and for a long time.

The conviction that Karl Marx is the best example of this is correct as he was the best-known figure of that kind. Frostig, a psychiatrist of the old school, included Engels and others into a category he called “bearded schizoidal fanatics”. The famous utterances attributed to Zionist wise men at the turn of the century start with a schizoidal declaration. The nineteenth century, especially its latter half, appears to have been a time of exceptional activity on the part of schizoidal individuals, often but not always of Jewish descent. After all we have to remember that 97 % of all Jews do not manifest this anomaly, and that it also appears among all European nations, albeit to a markedly lesser extent. Our inheritance from this period includes world-images, scientific traditions, and legal concepts flavored with the shoddy ingredients of a schizoidal apprehension of reality.

Humanists are prepared to understand that era and its legacy within categories characterizing their own traditions. They search for societal, ideational, and moral causes for known phenomena. Such an explanation, however, can never constitute the whole truth, since it ignores the biological factors which participated in the genesis of the phenomena. Schizoidia is the most frequent factor, albeit not the only one.

In spite of the fact that the writings of schizoidal authors contain the above described deficiency, or even an openly formulated schizoidal declaration which constitutes sufficient warning to specialists, the average reader accepts them not as a view of reality warped by this anomaly, but rather as an idea to which he should assume an attitude based on his convictions and his reason. That is the first mistake. The oversimplified pattern, devoid of psychological color and based on easily available data, exerts an intense influence upon individuals who are insufficiently critical, frequently frustrated as result of downward social adjustment, culturally neglected, or characterized by some psychological deficiencies. Others are provoked to criticism based on their healthy common sense, also they fail to grasp this essential cause of the error.

Societal interpretation of such activities is broken down into the main trifurcations, engendering divisiveness and conflict. The first branch is the path of aversion, based on rejection of the contents of the work due to personal motivations, differing convictions, or moral revulsion. This already contains the component of a moralizing interpretation of pathological phenomena.

We can distinguish two distinctly different apperception types among those persons who accept the contents of such works: the critically-corrective and the pathological. People whose feel for psychological reality is normal tend to incorporate chiefly the more valuable elements of the work. They trivialize the obvious errors and complement the schizoid deficiencies by means of their own richer world-view. This gives rise to a more sensible, measured, and thus creative interpretation, but is not free from the influence of the error frequently adduced above.

Pathological acceptance is manifested by individuals with diversiform deviations, whether inherited or acquired, as well as by many people bearing personality malformations or who have been injured by social injustice. That explains why this scope is wider than the circle drawn by direct action of pathological factors. This apperception often brutalizes the authors’ concepts and leads to acceptance of forceful methods and revolutionary means. [...]

In the ponerogenic process of the pathocratic phenomenon, characteropathic individuals adopt ideologies created by doctrinaire, often schizoidal people, recast them into an active propaganda form, and disseminate it with pathological egotism and paranoid intolerance for any philosophies which may differ from their own. They also inspire further transformation of this ideology into its pathological counterpart. Something which had a doctrinaire character and circulated in numerically limited groups is now activated at societal level, thanks to their spellbinding possibilities. [...]

Psychopathic individuals generally stay away from social organizations characterized by reason and ethical discipline. After all, these were created by that other world of normal people so foreign to them. They therefore hold various social ideologies in contempt, at the same time discerning all their actual failings. However, once the process of poneric transformation of some human union into its yet undefined cartoon counterpart has begun and advanced sufficiently, they perceive this fact with almost infallible sensitivity: a circle has been created wherein they can hide their failings and psychological differentness, find their own “modus vivendi”, and maybe even realize their youthful Utopian dream. They thereupon begin infiltrating the rank and file of such a movement; pretending to be sincere adherents poses them no difficulty, since it is second nature for them to play a role and hide behind the mask of normal people. [...]

They initially perform subordinate functions in such a movement and execute the leaders’ orders, especially whenever something needs to be done which inspires revulsion in others. Their evident zealotry and cynicism gives rise to criticism on the part of the union’s more reasonable members, but it also earns the respect of some its revolutionaries. They thus find protection among those people who earlier played a role in the movement’s ponerization, and repay the favor with complements or by making things easier for them. Thus they climb up the organizational ladder, gain influence, and almost involuntarily bend the contents of the entire group to their own way of experiencing reality and to the goals derived from their deviant nature. A mysterious disease is already raging inside the union. The adherents of the original ideology feel ever more constricted by powers they do not understand; they start fighting with demons and making mistakes.

If such a movement is to triumph by revolutionary means and in the name of freedom, the welfare of the people, and social justice, this can only bring about further transformation of a governmental system thus created into a macro-social pathological phenomenon. Within this system, the common man is blamed for not having been born a psychopath, and is considered good for nothing except hard work, fighting and dying to protect a system of government he can neither sufficiently comprehend nor ever consider to be his own. [...]

Those people who initially found the original ideology attractive eventually come to the realization that they are in fact dealing with something else. The disillusionment experienced by such former ideological adherents is bitter in the extreme. The pathological minority’s attempts to retain power will thus always be threatened by the society of normal people, whose criticism keeps growing. [...]

The phenomenon of pathocracy matures during this period: an extensive and active indoctrination system is built, with a suitably refurbished ideology constituting the vehicle or Trojan horse for the process of pathologizing the thought of individuals and society. The goal is never openly admitted: forcing human minds to incorporate pathological experiential methods and thought-patterns, and consequently accepting such rule. This goal is conditioned by pathological egotism, and thus strikes them as feasible, not just indispensable. Thousands of activists must therefore participate in this work. However, time and experience confirm what a psychologist may have long foreseen. The entire effort produces results so very limited that it is reminiscent of the labors of Sisyphus. It helps bring both a general stifling of intellectual development and deep-rooted protest against affront-mongering “hypocrisy”. The authors and executors of this program are incapable of understanding that the decisive factor making their work difficult is the nature of normal human beings.

The entire system of force, terror, and forced indoctrination, or, rather, pathologization, thus proves effectively unfeasible, which causes the pathocrats no small measure of surprise. Reality places a question mark behind their conviction that such methods can change people until they eventually recognize this kind of government as a normal state.
 
BK, I think those other guys, disinformational or not, get more notice because they are limited in what they do/discuss, which is easier for some to grasp. There are few such restrictions here. None of those guys are as concerned with the spiritual aspect of humanity, which is simply off the radar for a lot of folks. A lot of us are led here by first investigating any of a multitude of other mysteries like psychology, religion, UFOs, health issues, astronomy, channeling, etc. in addition to the political turmoil being focused on by most others. It's most fascinating how these things tie together behind the visible scenes. It's great if those other guys serve as stepping stones to investigation into a larger reality, but it's tough when a lot of people then get stuck on someone they think is a "savior" or ultimate "fount of truth" because then they may have some real trouble progressing, OSIT. And that very point is what is behind setting up disinformation channels -- creating and controlling your own opposition -- they are designed to attract, capture and limit.
 
Schizoid characters aim to impose their own conceptual world upon other people or social groups, using relatively controlled pathological egotism and the exceptional tenacity derived from their persistent nature. They are thus eventually able to overpower another individual’s personality, which causes the latter’s behavior to turn desperately illogical. They may also exert a similar influence upon the group of people they have joined.
I hate to say it but a lot of that sounds like me. I love arguing with people and "proving them wrong" or at least getting them to "see my side of the argument." Having said that, I think my enjoyment of debate is more a result of my thirst for articulated knowledge than it is a penchant for controlling another's mind. Debate is the great whetting stone of the intellect. I'm also curious to see what is floating the other boats out there with whom I share the sea.
 
baffledking said:
Having said that, I think my enjoyment of debate is more a result of my thirst for articulated knowledge than it is a penchant for controlling another's mind.
Well, unless you are really trying understand the other side of the debate, you aren't going to learn anything new. If you just pick a side and "fight", the only thing that is happening is an attempt to alter the other side's thought processes. Their isn't any new knowledge gained in most debates. That's why we here prefer to discuss, rather than debate.
 
Well, unless you are really trying understand the other side of the debate, you aren't going to learn anything new.
Good point beau. Discussion is transactional whereas debate is two people driving opposite each other down a one way street.
 
I prefer for people to interact together in a networked search for the data, to try to certify it, and to then discuss its merits and after enough info is collected, to try to form a hypothesis and then test it. That seems a lot more fruitful and useful than debating. Of course, a certain amount of "debate," though it is really more like discussion, comes into play when trying to figure out what the data may mean. If there is not enough "weight" to make a firm, fact based decision about the meaning, then it's better to simply try to get more data and see where the weight falls. When a group of people do this, it's amazing how things can be figured out.
 
baffledking said:
Since most of the people who are waking up didn't necessarily start with SOTT but more likely with Alex Jones, David Icke or Jeff Rense....isn't the disinfo backfiring? i.e. leading too many horses to water?
I actually started out with far more obscure sites than those and eventually made my way there, but they either became repetitive or they sidestep certain issues or their 'explanations' or 'analysis' were seldom satisfactory. I still read those sites sometimes, but I know (or hope so) when they are writing stuff which doesn't correspond to reality. Exactly that would be the pons asinorum which everyone must cross who wants to understand the world better: to not accept implausible statements for fact and continue searching - it is difficult to find because it is within and not in plain sight.

As I see them, Rense and Co. are good stepping stones if one knows how to use them on one's way. If you found here through them, you've learnt something or you have the necessary curiosity in you, IMHO, and that is good :-)
 
pons asinorum. bridge of asses. cool word, name!

Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive.
 

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