Disney movies - mothers missing?

[Zadius Sky]

Here's the list of fairy tales (with date, by whom and from where):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fairy_tales

I have never heard most of them before.

 

[Gonzo]

It's certainly been a topic of discussion in our household when my daughters were young and watching Disney movies. In fact, when the Lion King came out, we were surprised to see them kill of the father instead of the mother.

I can see how the earlier symbolism of mother being nurturer to a point becoming that which holds back the child from adulthood, although I think the substance behind the concept is all but lost, and all that remains is the removal of the mother without any deep purpose behind the act.

Wikipedia has an entry, Roles of mothers in Disney media (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roles_of_mothers_in_Disney_media). Although thin on content, it provides the following lists:
No (or 'absent') mothers
Wicked stepmother
Mother killed and/or captured
Biological mothers
Adoptive mothers

I found an interesting anecdote. Apparently Disney's mother was killed by carbonoxide poisoning (_http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/thedailymirror/2008/11/poison-gas-kill.html). Since Walt gave the house to his parents only to have a faulty furnace connection render his father Unconscious and his mother poisoned, perhaps his guilt played a role in his selection of stories he produced.

Gonzo

 

[Approaching Infinity]

So maybe fairy tales are the vision of men, that were able to write what the tradition and legends were told. Mothers are not there because they were not perceived anymore like divines, important. In Occident. I am sure that in other cultures is different.

On the other hand, sometimes a thing's importance is implied by that thing's absence. The absence of a mother could symbolize a lack of connection with the 'goddess', which is the state any 'hero' starts in.

 

[loreta]

Mothers are absent, and mother represent protection. Instead we have the Witch, who represent devil. Women, at that time, had power, knew about plants and nature... But the religion view this negatively. We remember all the women who were burn and how women lost something in that genocide. Why there are no mothers but so many witches in fairy tales? Fairy tales are also messages, histories to teach something. So what I see is that women are seen as witches, when they have power and this is the only power that they have. Religion perceived women under two ideas: the saint (virgin or martyr) or the -jezebel-. So at the first degree, when you are a child and read a fairy tale, you have two figures that you can see very clearly: the Queen, and the witch. (I always preferred the witch.)

But also: there were times of war and violence, and poverty and misery. Even if the end of each fairy tale finishes positively, the story is an horror story, like life itself on this planet. Mother can symbolize mother earth, nature, compassion, love and peace. Mother is absent because the humanity forgot something very important, the love of the mother for her child and all what this represents. In fact fairy tales are very sad. We can analyse them and see very interesting themes, but the fact is that a fairy tale is a story of a very hard initiation for their characters. It is a défi, a challenge. In that sense, fairy tales are educative, that is why it is very important to read to children these stories. Are the children, now, readers of fairy tales? Are we more prepared if we have read when we were kids, fairy tales? I think so. But the fact is that this idea of the woman versus witch is there, very present in my education.

 

[obyvatel]

This Sott article seems relevant in this context.
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/244502-Fairy-Tales-of-Yore-and-the-Anti-Grimm

The article posits that there is evidence which suggests that rather than being a carrier of universal values, the popular versions of the western fairytales are largely social constructs carefully scrubbed and edited to serve the purpose of "moral education of 19th century children".

While the article does not specifically address the question of "missing mothers", the topic of gender bias addressed there is insightful.

 

[Zadius Sky]

I'll go ahead and add Bastian from The Never Ending Story- his mother died.

Another book by the same author, Momo. The heroine of this story didn't have either mother or father.

 

[Gonzo]

I was originally thinking some form of ponerization effect had occurred on authors, where the distortions of female characters were an acknowledgment of the misogyny that the patriarchal society had advanced, as if the effect of ponerology made its way into the collective consciousness and, therefore, tapped into by authors.

However, thinking more about this after reading so many interesting comments, I am wondering how much the collective unconscious (if I'm using the term correctly), as opposed to the collective consciousness, plays a role in the creative process, particularly when an author is writing a novel or screenplay. Could it be that the Jung's collective unconscious, fed by universal archetypes but filtered through the collective awareness of patriarchy and imprisonment of the divine feminine, leaves but a distorted flow of symbols so that inspiration is limited, impaired, unable to fully express itself through the inspired?

I apologize if I'm not being clear. I'm struggling with trying to express such abstract thoughts.

Gonzo

 

[obyvatel]

From the Jungian literature I am familiar with, there are mainly two ways that the "mother" is represented in an archetypal sense - the dark mother complex and the exalted mother archetype (this thread has some details).

The mother complex can hold the hero back like in the case of Parsifal in his Grail Quest where the biological mother represents one face of the mother complex. In this context, Jungian Robert Johnson write in "He"
[quote author=He]
No son ever develops into manhood without in some way being disloyal to his mother. If he remains with her, to comfort her and console her, then he never gets out of his mother complex.
[/quote]

The interesting thing is the mother, if present in popular western fairytales, mostly represents this face of the mother complex which must be set aside (or even conquered in the case of the evil mother) to proceed on the heroic journey. Rarely (if any) are there instances where the earthly mother figure plays the role of the wise old mother who would help the hero in his/her heroic journey. That role is usually reserved for more "out of the world" characters.

This meme that the mother figure must be absent or be pushed aside for individuation could be the result of a carefully constructed social construct used by the patriarchal society for the purpose of control. Subtly inculcating this idea in children could have an effect of reducing the possibility of accepting a mother figure providing assistance in their life's journey thus reducing the power of the wise woman archetype in real life. OSIT

 

[EmeraldHope]

The interesting thing is the mother, if present in popular western fairytales, mostly represents this face of the mother complex which must be set aside (or even conquered in the case of the evil mother) to proceed on the heroic journey. Rarely (if any) are there instances where the earthly mother figure plays the role of the wise old mother who would help the hero in his/her heroic journey. That role is usually reserved for more "out of the world" characters. This meme that the mother figure must be absent or be pushed aside for individuation could be the result of a carefully constructed social construct used by the patriarchal society for the purpose of control. Subtly inculcating this idea in children could have an effect of reducing the possibility of accepting a mother figure providing assistance in their life's journey thus reducing the power of the wise woman archetype in real life. OSIT

Two things come to mind here. In regards to the first paragraph above, it seems we are back to the two faces of the goddess- lige giving or death dealing. It also reminds me of two passages from Zealator:

‘In the arcane tradition there are two Moons. These pairs have very many names. Such names are usually derived from mythological personifications – yet all these pairs relate to the idea that one Moon is a reflector of sunlight, while the other, if not always in darkness, is invisible. …‘From the very beginning of civilization, the Moon has been a mystery, because it has always stared down upon the Earth with one single face. As the Moon circles the Earth, it keeps one side of its globular face presented towards humanity. …
‘… Western occultism have tended, until comparatively recent times, to emphasize only the light side of the Moon. Even so, hints of the dark Moon are encapsulated in even the most overt-seeming symbolism.
‘… the archangel Gabriel is the ruler of the Moon – that is, of the light side of the Moon. His role as messenger at the Annunciation is well established, even if his arcane role (symbolized by the white lilies) is only imperfectly understood outside the secret Schools. The lilies of Gabriel are very profound symbols indeed. They are recognized, in the Mysteries, as symbols of the descent of a God. [Laura’s note: Notice that he does not say “the descent of God,” but of “a God.”]
‘Furthermore, in the same Christian tradition, images of the Assumption of the Virgin show the lunar crescent beneath the feet of the Virgin.
‘In these two different symbols, we have a clue to how the Virgin of Light is linked with the angelic ruler of the Moon at the conception of the Child, and with the lunar crescent at her own translation from Earth to Heaven – at her death. It is as though this symbolism was designed to show …’ He paused ‘… to show that the very same lunar forces which announced her destiny as the Mother of God were also lifting her to Heaven, at the end of her life.
‘Now, Gabriel is the Christian equivalent of the personified light Moon. The name is, of course, Hebraic, and we must look to the same language in our search for the name of the Christian dark Moon. This name is Lilith, the mother of thelilin, or brood of demons. We see, then, that it is no great mystery that the angel Gabriel should carry lilies at the Annunciation. There is rarely such a thing as accident in the confluence of sounds in arcane symbolism.’ (Hedsel 2000, 310–311)

and

‘… the lunar Isis is not a single goddess, but dual. Her sister, Nephthys, was the dark Moon: in the ancient EgyptianBook of the Dead, Nephthys is portrayed standing opposite her sister, like a shadow-neter (opposite). In addition to being sister of Isis, this black virgin Nephthys was sister and wife of the darkSet. … The pair – Isis and Nephthys – were calledthe weeping sisters. Their tears stream to Earth, justas the tears of sleeping humanity stream towards the Moon in the Tarot card.This, it is said, was because they both wept at the death of Osiris, though, as we shall see, there may be a far deeper reason for this description.’ …‘I said that much of the ancient lore pertaining to the dark Moon was lost with the emergence of Christianity … The initiates who guided the transfer of some of the ancient teachings of the Egyptians to Rome, that they might serve the new Mysteries of Christ …’
In the Greek and Roman epics, it is a commonplace for the poets to visualize the gods spinning fate around a man, as though his body were nothing more than a spindle, the inner core being wrapped in the threads from which his destiny was being spun. This notion was extended into the fatalistic activities of the Moirae. The Greek word moira, which meant ‘portion’, was eventually applied to the fate apportioned to an individual, and the three Moirae were adopted as personifications of the notion of allotted destiny.
The myths of Selene and the Moirae are not really too far removed from the ancient hermetic view which traced a link between the Moon and Fate. In early cosmologies, it was the Moon who was regarded as the controller of human destiny. …
… The Greek name Hecate means ‘worker from afar’, and captures perfectly the notion of an influence cast from a distant satellite. It would seem that Hecate is the tutelary lunar goddess of the Sleepers, of those who have not yet found their way to a Path. (Hedsel 2000, 312, 314, 316, 233)

So that brings us back to hyperdimesional denizens as the dark mother it would seem. Also, there are very few ( I cannot think of any) wise old woman archetypes here on earth, which would explain the need for help to be otherworldly.

But again, how could it be a other way? To have those, one would have to have a reality based on objective reality and a culture to go with it. Psyches that write stories for children would have to be whole. OSIT

In other words, until a lot of pryfs can hold their own in the gates of time, it IS otherworldly, and not reflected here in our reality.

So again, I think this is the archetype of the hero BECAUSE the divine feminine is captured/missing.

 

[obyvatel]

In other words, until a lot of pryfs can hold their own in the gates of time, it IS otherworldly, and not reflected here in our reality.

So again, I think this is the archetype of the hero BECAUSE the divine feminine is captured/missing.

Archetypes need human receivers/vessels to be embodied in this reality. Certain belief systems laid down in children before the critical faculty (System2) is developed is likely to limit their own perceptions regarding what is or is not possible. So when the children who may have had this specific potential grow up to be adults, they may have artificially restricted the possibilities (of embodying a wise woman archetype or even interacting with one in real life) due in some part to the stories they were told earlier. Thus it may help perpetuate the state of the missing archetype.

Clarissa Pinkola Estes does mention about regular flesh and blood wise mother type people whom she encountered while growing up. Personal experiences of others may show similar encounters as well. The thing is if there is a strong subconscious belief that such beings must be otherworldly - like fairies and goddesses appearing in dreams etc - it can leave a person more vulnerable to hyperdimensional influences of a negative kind. Laura wrote in the Wave series about 4D STS agents posing as fairies and showing miracles.

My thoughts fwiw

 

[lake_george]

Thanks to all for a very interesting discussion!

I am wondering if the mother is missing from many folk/fairy tales because if the mother was there, there would not be a story! The child would be safe.

A few stories begin after the mother has died, and the father marries again -the 'evil' stepmother. Before the mother died all was well ~ no drama!

Although I have read some very disturbing things about Walt Disney, and also seen how subliminal messages are embedded in the current Disney productions, there are a few Disney movies from back-in-the-day which are a bit different : "Thomasina", and "Mary Poppins."

If I remember correctly, in "Thomasina," there was a lovely, wise, hermit, animal-healer woman who lived in a tiny house full of animals in the woods. Wow!! Lights came on when I saw her! I knew what I wanted to be when I grew up!!

In the "Mary Poppins" movie there is a mother - but she is off and about out of the home with politics (I think..). But then there is Mary Poppins - another rare achetype. (ANd, just for the record, the author, Pamela Travers, was a student of Mr. Gurdjieff.)

 

[knowledge_of_self]

I read an article that got me thinking more about Disney movies, and it dawned on me that there is something very wrong with Disney in the sense that most all of the characters are missing what is usually very important to a child- the mother! [..]

This is the main theme in all stories for and about children up until may be 1950s (after WWII). Most traditional stories feature orphans making their way through a challenging world, with help of friends or surrogate carers. Literary tales explore that as well (Anne of Green Gables, Tom Sawyer, The Secret Garden, etc etc etc). Really, in the US children's literature and popular culture, you begin to see a complete family with attentive, caring parents, starting with "Leave it to Beaver" and Beverly Cleary. Presently it's more of a norm.

My understanding of the use of orphans or kids without mothers by Disney was very close to what Hildegarda wrote. The fact is, that even when those fairy tails were originally written, there were a LOT of orphans around due to many reasons. So I think this was one of the reasons stories about orphans became so abundant, people related to it.

In regards to Disney a lot of their movies are motherless, but regarding the divine feminine, wouldn't the feminine heroins be that archetype? Sure they didn't have mothers per se, but through hardship they evolve into strong women who then tap into the divine feminine by themselves - osit.

It's certainly been a topic of discussion in our household when my daughters were young and watching Disney movies. In fact, when the Lion King came out, we were surprised to see them kill of the father instead of the mother.

Well it's interesting to note that the Lion King was based on Hamlet, and in Hamlet it's the father who dies. I also recall that Lion King effected me very deeply when Mufasa died. I remember watching it alone (my parents were at work) and I called my dad while crying to see if he's ok. He was so shocked because I called him crying, and he asked me why and I just remember bawling "Cause Mufasa DIED!!" and He had no clue what I was talking about...

By the way two other stories that came to my mind were
Cinderella - Evil step-mother/Fairy God Mother
Pinocchio- Only had Father - but also a Fairy God Mother

 

[EmeraldHope]

In regards to Disney a lot of their movies are motherless, but regarding the divine feminine, wouldn't the feminine heroins be that archetype? Sure they didn't have mothers per se, but through hardship they evolve into strong women who then tap into the divine feminine by themselves - osit.

Do they? I recall they mostly get rescued by or marry the prince. I guess you could say it is some abstract of the chemical wedding, but IDK.


Sleeping Beauty- asleep and saved by and married prince
Snow White- knocked out and kissed by and married prince
Ariel- gave up who she was to be with prince
Anastasia- gives up her family and status to marry the not prince
Belle- sacrifices herself for her father and marries the beast after he turns into a prince


Maybe there are some- IDK. I will have to ponder that one.

 

[knowledge_of_self]

Hmm interesting perspective Daenerys . I guess it would really depend on what version of the story we're talking about here but let's for the sake of clarity focus on the Disney version and not the real fairy tale. For example the Little Mermaid, where the original story is far more esoteric than the Disney one. I'd like to share my perceptions with you on some of the characters/movies you named.

Sleeping Beauty- asleep and saved by and married prince

True, but the Prince who rescued her was helped by the three good Faries who imo in a way represented part of the Feminine Divine. In the end it was them who helped him escape the castle, and provided him with the shield of justice and sword of truth to defeat the dragon.

Snow White- knocked out and kissed by and married prince

Perhaps SnowWhite is not the best example for Feminine Devine, but it does teach a lot about not to trust just anyone ( old lady with the apple) and the manifestation of the different I's within ourselves metaphorically through the dwarves.

Ariel- gave up who she was to be with prince

In a way yes, but in another she also embraced her curiosity. I'm basing this on the part of the Disney movie where she sings "Part of that world" before she even met the Prince- she always had a fascination with the "world above". But I'm sure her hormones didn't help the matter once she met the Prince ;)

Belle- sacrifices herself for her father and marries the beast after he turns into a prince

Imo Belle does sacrifice herself for her father in a sense, but in another, she's the only one who can see that the true beast is Gaston - the psychopath who just wants to kill the beast for being a "beast", and in order to posses Belle. Her tears of "true love" is what saves the beast in the end and turns him into a prince.

Another good example is Mulan. She overcomes many hardships to be the one who "saved China", even though she was a woman.

Pocahontas is another (though very different from the true story). The Disney version's Pocahontas, she single handedly stops a war by saving John Smith in the end and standing up for what she believes in. And she also teaches John how to "see the colors of the wind" :P The Oak Tree in that movie represented part of the Feminine Divine as well - osit.

 

[TheSpoon]

Re: Disney movies - Esoteric concepts

Off topic but I didn't think it was worth starting a new thread for this quick observation. I just put on Peter Pan (1953) for my two young'uns, and it surprised me by starting with the line "All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again" which threw me for six because it's straight out of Battlestar Galactica, or more correctly, the central theme of Battlestar Galactica is straight out of Disney's Peter Pan.

I found the reference here: __http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return

I then did a search for "Disney Esoteric" and found this which...I don't know...it's a lot to get through. In his favour, the author at least cites a bibliography.

_http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/the_disney_bloodlinept1.htm

For comparison, the book begins thusly:

All children, except one, grow up. They soon know that they will grow up, and the way Wendy knew was this. One day when she was two years old she was playing in a garden, and she plucked another flower and ran with it to her mother. I suppose she must have looked rather delightful, for Mrs. Darling put her hand to her heart and cried, "Oh, why can't you remain like this for ever!" This was all that passed between them on the subject, but henceforth Wendy knew that she must grow up. You always know after you are two. Two is the beginning of the end.