DNA and Souls

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Some found it offensive what I wrote. That's fine, everyone can have an opinion. I don't really want to change anyone's opinion, but it looks like it I'm trying by writing all this. It is however not my intention to go against the free will of the universe and try to change your mind about anything. I just hope that people will come up with good arguments.

What I write is really an anti-philosophy, as all philosophies and all religions must be false when you say that you cannot understand. There is no compromise possible when you write such things. That will be offensive for many people who believe in something.
 
Govert said:
Some found it offensive what I wrote. That's fine, everyone can have an opinion. I don't really want to change anyone's opinion, but it looks like it I'm trying by writing all this, what is really an anti-philosophy, as all philosophies and all religions must be false when you say that you cannot understand. There is no compromise possible when you write such things. That will be offensive for many people who believe in something.
We are not interested in opinions here. We are interested in data, in facts that will help us approach an objective truth. This is something that you do not think is possible - the determining of objective truth - therefore, why are you here?

You have not 'offended' anyone - we simply are not interested in your limited, subjective opinions and really have no time to indulge your circular arguments. We are also not interested in 'beliefs'. Not only do you appear to lack any understanding whatsoever of what we are trying to do here, you have proven that you are not interested in trying to understand what we do here- therefore, I will say once again that you are a source of noise and distraction and it is time for you to move along to a forum that might appreciate your 'opinions'.
 
Please remember that it all started with the objective discussion if you can prove with objective facts that (some) human beings have a soul.

Besides, this section is called 'what's on your mind'. Why are your responses so full of contempt?
 
Govert, if my posts are coming across as being full of contempt, then I have written them poorly, because I do not feel contempt. One of my small functions here is to keep the discussion as 'noise free' as possible and to point out to people when what they are posting is either distracting from the general purpose, is generally perceived as 'noise', or is manipulative. I have pointed out that, by your own definition, you have made it clear that you do not 'believe' that one can ever understand the objective truth of our shared existence.

This definition, or 'anti-philosophy', of yours is completely contrary to the core purpose of this forum, and as such serves no purpose here. It also brings up the question of why you would choose to be part of a forum that runs contrary to your stated beliefs.

Members of this forum work very hard to keep the discussion relevant, purposeful and as objective as is humanly possible, and an undermining of that Work is simply not allowed. As I stated very clearly earlier, if you are interested in sincerely joining our effort to objectively understand and define the Universe, then you are more than welcome to do that. If not, it is best to move on. It really is very simple.
 
Your answer to my question is dissapointing -or that's what I thought at first: Your elaboration leads to the point where it started, so there is really nothing there to discuss: There is no point. There is no information. The observations you have got, have not been a factor of progress: Your round-about is a black-hole.

Then, thanks to your behavour, I end-up actually understanding your answer to my question: You are just pushing your 'predilection', and your anti-philosophy, hollow and laughable, works for you like a bunker, or so you think. This paradaise you have found, is telling you that it is your perception, your optic, your 'findings', your posittion, the which is valuable and final because, after all, truth is something that cannot be knowm or undrstood so, what the heck does it gives what you or anybody says? And particulary regarding to whatever you so feel a 'predilection' for, evidently.

What is a Paradise?

Ponerology said:
Ponerology. p. 135

If time ever comes when "conditions will change" and "evil will no longer rule", it could be because progress in the study of pathological phenomena and their ponerogenic role will make it possible for societies to calmly accept the existance of this phenomena and comprehen them as categories of nature. The vision of a new, just structure of society can then be realized within the framework and under the control of normal people. Having reconciled ourselves to the fact that such people are different and have limited capacity for social adjustment, we should create a system of permanent protection for them within the framework of reazon and proper knowledge, a system which will partially make their dreams come true.
Paradise is a place where your dreams comes true.

If you read again, you will fine truths more important that the truth you, or perhaps your studies, have not allowed you to comprhend.

Govert said:
There is no compromise possible when you write such things.
Of course! Why would you want to adquite a compromise with something, when from your place you can talk and think and be with such a 'freedom'? Why would you like to give-up your impunity?

You need a soul to do that!

So, there you go, there is a truth after all: The others. And regarding that, your 'anti-opinion' is irrelevant and juvenile.

Good Night.
 
Govert said:
Why are your responses so full of contempt?
You seem quite sure that others here are responding in a "contemptuous" and "offended" manner. Can you prove this?
 
Govert said:
What I write is really an anti-philosophy, as all philosophies and all religions must be false when you say that you cannot understand. There is no compromise possible when you write such things. That will be offensive for many people who believe in something.
It is also a pretty standard and well-worn argument that falls under the heading of solipsism and epistemological relativism. This is, in my opinion based on years of observation and even trying on that hat for a bit, a social synaptic construct.

What do I mean by synaptic?

Let me explain: there is a little known fact about hypnosis that is illustrated by the following story:

A subject was told under hypnosis that when he was awakened he would be unable to see a third man in the room who, it was suggested to him, would have become invisible. All the "proper" suggestions to make this "true" were given, such as "you will NOT see so- and-so" etc... When the subject was awakened, lo and behold! the suggestions did NOT work.

Why? Because they went against his belief system. He did NOT believe that a person could become invisible.

So, another trial was made. The subject was hypnotized again and was told that the third man was leaving the room... that he had been called away on urgent business, and the scene of him getting on his coat and hat was described... the door was opened and shut to provide "sound effects," and then the subject was brought out of the trance.

Guess what happened?

He was UNABLE TO SEE the Third Man.

Why? Because his perceptions were modified according to his beliefs. Certain "censors" in his brain were activated in a manner that was acceptable to his ego survival instincts.

The ways and means that we ensure survival of the ego is established pretty early in life by our parental and societal programming. This conditioning determines what IS or is NOT possible; what we are "allowed" to believe in order to be accepted. We learn this first by learning what pleases our parents and then later we modify our belief based on what pleases our society - our peers - to believe.

Anyway, to return to our story, the Third Man went about the room picking things up and setting them down and doing all sorts of things to test the subject's awareness of his presence, and the subject became utterly hysterical at this "anomalous" activity! He could see objects moving through the air, doors opening and closing, but he could NOT see the SOURCE because he did not believe that there was another man in the room.

So, what are the implications of this factor of human consciousness? (By the way, this is also the reason why most therapy to stop bad habits does not work - they attempt to operate against a "belief system" that is imprinted in the subconscious that this or that habit is essential to survival.)

One of the first things we might observe is that everyone has a different set of beliefs based upon their social and familial conditioning, and that these beliefs determine how much of the OBJECTIVE reality anyone is able to access.

Realities, objective, subjective, or otherwise, are a touchy subject to solipsists, so I don't want to get bogged down there just now. Suffice it to say that years of work inside the minds of all kinds of people has taught me that we almost never perceive reality as it truly IS.

In the above story, the objective reality IS WHAT IT IS, whether it is truly objective, or only a consensus reality. In this story, there is clearly a big part of that reality that is inaccessable to the subject due to a perception censor which was activated by the suggestions of the hypnotist. That is to say, the subject has a strong belief, based upon his CHOICE as to who or what to believe. In this case, he has chosen to believe the hypnotist and not what he might be able to observe if he dispensed with the perception censor put in place by the hypnotist who activated his "belief center" - even if that activation was fraudulent.

Solipsism is just such a censor.

And so it is with nearly all human beings: we believe the hypnotist - the "official culture" which promotes solipsism - and we are able, with preternatural cunning, to deny what is often right in front of our faces. And in the case of the hypnosis subject, he is entirely at the mercy of the "Invisible Man" because he chooses not to see him.

Let's face it: we are all taught to avoid uncomfortable realities. Human beings - faced with unpleasant truths about themselves or their reality - react like alcoholics who refuse to admit their condition, or the cuckolded husband who is the "last to know," or the wife who does not notice that her husband is abusing her daughter.

I am not surprised at Govert's state of denial. It is the cultural norm. I am also not surprised at the projection of this discomfort onto others.

In States of Denial: Knowing about Atrocities and Suffering, (Cambridge: Polity Press; Malden, MA: Blackwell Publishers, 2001), Stanley Cohen discusses the subject of denial which may shed some light on the problem.

Denial is a complex "unconscious defence mechanism for coping with guilt, anxiety and other disturbing emotions aroused by reality."

Denial can be both deliberate and intentional, as well as completely subconscious.

An individual who is deliberately and intentionally denying something is acting from an individual level of lying, concealment and deception. I don't think that we are dealing with this in the present case. What we are dealing with is denial that is subconscious and therefore organized and "institutional." This implies propaganda, misinformation, whitewash, manipulation, spin, disinformation, Official Culture.

Believing anything that comes down the pike is not the opposite of denial.

"Acknowledgement" of the probability of a high level of Truth about a given matter is what should happen when people are actively aroused by certain information. This information can be 1) factual or forensic truth; that is to say, legal or scientific information which is factual, accurate and objective; it is obtained by impartial procedures; 2) personal and narrative truth including "witness testimonies."

I should add here that skepticism and solipsistic arguments - including epistemological relativism - about the existence of objective truth, are generally a social construction and might be considered in the terms of the hypnotized man who has been programmed to think that there "is no truth."

Denial occurs for a variety of reasons. There are truths that are "clearly known," but for many reasons - personal or political, justifiable or unjustifiable - are concealed, or it is agreed that they will not be acknowledged "out loud." There are "unpleasant truths" and there are truths that make us tired because if we acknowledge them - if we do more than give them a tacit nod - we may find it necessary to make changes in our lives.

Cohen points out that "All counter-claims about the denied reality are themselves only manoeuvres in endless truth-games. And truth, as we know, is inseparable from power." Denial of truth is, effectively, giving away your power.
 
Laura wrote:

who has been programmed to think that there "is no truth."


* Maybe you misunderstand, Laura. I don't deny that there is an objective truth. I stated that we cannot understand this objective truth, the true nature of existence.

The existence is really 'one'.
Our mind is not capable to understand this. Our mind is always focused on multiplicity and duality. When we think of one (as a reference point) immediately the numbers two, three etc pop up. People always think in terms good-bad, positive-negative, female-male, etc. The mind cannot understand the principle of unity.

That's because a mind (thoughts) separates and can only use knowledge from the past. Every time a mind 'sees' something it is translating it in order to communicate to yourself (and others) what you see. There is no other way. When you are looking at a tree you are translating that you see an object and mostly you name it 'a tree', because that is what you know (has been told really).

Because of this translation you are separating yourself from the tree and you can't know what the true nature is of that tree. The mind cannot grasp this. Only when you are one with the tree you are 'aware' (it is not the correct word of course) of the true nature, but you cannot translate and understand it, because when you do there is separation immediately and the knowledge you have of the tree is not the true nature. If you don't translate you don't have thoughts about it, so you cannot know and understand. Normally we cannot stop our thinking so we cannot be one with a tree and be 'aware' of the true nature of a tree. Being aware is not a correct word as it always goes together with thinking (and we cannot stop it).

That's why that all philosophies and religions are maybe nice attempts to understand the true nature of existence, but they cannot. They cannot describe or understand the objective truth.

What is very important as well is that we are trapped in a matrix. There are many methods and techniques around who promise you that you reach enlightenment or promise you the way out of the matrix. All these methods and techniques want you to change or manipulate something.
Even the method of Mouravieff is based on change. Every change and manipulation done by the mind will fail. It will keep you further away from unity, keep you more trapped and will lead to destruction. The more you struggle the deeper you sink in the quicksand.

I am interested Laura if you can prove that a method takes you out of the trap.
 
Govert said:
I am interested Laura if you can prove that a method takes you out of the trap.
There was a statement in one of the C's sessions (I was unable to find the exact session): 'For those that require 'proof', no amount of proof will be adequate', or something to that effect.

Kris
 
RflctnOfU said:
There was a statement in one of the C's sessions (I was unable to find the exact session): 'For those that require 'proof', no amount of proof will be adequate', or something to that effect.

Kris
Exactly! That's why it is a belief! (although I think they were talking about something else when they said this, but let's assume you are right)

You cannot prove that a method works and will take you out of the matrix. It's the same as christians who say they 'know' they have a relationship with jesus who will take them out (before the tribulation) if they behave well and keep believing (you have to do something for it).

Why not just admit that you cannot prove that a method will take you out and that it is a belief. It's part of your belief system and maybe because of this belief system of yours you cannot see 'the truth' (Laura explained it as synaptic), if that's what you believe.
 
Not a belief, a working hypothesis that is refined with data and knowledge that is gained along the way. The key here is knowledge, not blind belief aka assumption. We may not KNOW for certain that something will take us out of the matrix, but we can do our best to try to use logic and analysis of our current predicament, and the study of our history to help us figure it out. So there is a very fundemental difference between the Christian approach and our approach. One is open and critical, the other is neither. All the data shows that being open and critical and seeking objective knowledge in other things in life allows one to find solutions and escape "mini matrixes" set up by social conditions and other situations. In other words, life experience shows that knowledge protects. The true goal is therefore knowledge, to find out the truth. After a certain amount of accumulation of knowledge, you may begin to get a sense of what is more likely to work, and what is not in terms of helping you escape from some planetary matrix of control. It's like anything in life - you may not know how to accomplish something, but there are definite steps you can take to help you approach that knowledge, and get a pretty good idea without ever having to be absolutely certain. But the more knowledge, the better the idea can be.
 
Govert said:
I am interested Laura if you can prove that a method takes you out of the trap.
I am interested to know if you can prove that others were responding in a "contemptuous" and "offended" manner, as per your previous declarations?

Your further avoidance of this question will only serve to reveal your lack of intent to participate sincerely in discussions here.
 
ScioAgapeOmnis said:
Not a belief, a working hypothesis that is refined with data and knowledge that is gained along the way.....
So if I understand you correctly, you believe that you can escape from the matrix

- if you become a good person (trying to do sto)
- if you don't believe bush
- if you believe in the construction of the NWO
- if you believe there is a higher power who is eating you, influencing your thinking and trying to hold you prison in the matrix
- if you don't obey a person who is in your opinion (or really) trying to manipulate you
- if you believe that the system of mouravieff is the method to get out
- if you believe that you can understand the true nature of the existence
- ..... (please add some more)

(I'm not saying per se that some of these things are true/untrue)

It's a bit more than christians have to do, I admit, but can these things take you out of the trap?

Is that part of your belief system?
 
Govert said:
So if I understand you correctly, you believe that you can escape from the matrix
No, you do not understand correctly. Belief is not involved. Hope, yes. But not belief. Nothing is guaranteed.

You keep on trying to frame the discussion in terms of "belief" or "religiousness". And you refuse to answer my previous question. Again, I make a third request for you to please do so.
 
I just want to point out again that it has been explained to Govert many times that nothing here is about 'belief' - yet, he still uses this word.

One wonders at this point if Govert is mentally challenged and unable to understand that belief is not part of the equation -

or

if Govert is having fun with his/her repetition and circular distractions.

My money is on the fun.
 

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