Do You Have Aphantasia?

[Andrew]

As far as I go, I actually suffer from the opposite, a too vivid imagination. It’s one of the reasons I’m able to do my job actually, helping people with cabinetry issues, visualizing solutions in 3D and in color comes quite handy.

That to me is simply amazing.

So, just to clarify: you're able to 'see' in your minds eye, as clear as day, 3D objects that (I'm assuming) you can then manipulate and control in order to find proper solutions, without losing the image held?



I wonder how it relates to the ability to draw something? And also how it works with very simple objects, like 'a box' or 'a triangle'? It would be very difficult for me to not end up with some kind of picture in my mind with such phrases (aka 'don't think of a pink elephant').



I used to draw a lot. But could NEVER draw something from the mind. An image would either have to be copied or a reference photo used to create something coherent. If I tried free-handing, the drawings would be abstract. 

For simple objects, I can draw the shape with sort of a mental finger, but after that there's no image there. It's almost like Hypnagogic imagery, that fades away but without such an initial intense visual.

With terms like 'dont think of a pink elephant', I have an idea of what that would look like. And from that ‘idea’ a very faint ‘impression’ of a cartoon like elephant appears but it might as well not even be there. It’s hard to explain.



I think similar subject to this was somewhere in the forum. Some people connects Aphantasia with this NPC phenomenon on the net I suppose.

Thank Gruchaa - not sure how the post linked to relates, but I did find this on what you mentioned though: The NPC Meme, Aphantasia, and the Noncameral Mind: What if the NPC Meme is Real?

Couple things to point out I found interesting:

[regarding leftists] To be quite blunt and honest, their reaction is one of outright mockery of consciousness itself. Right-wingers apparently “hear voices in their head” and this should be laughed at, be a cause for concern, and also be proof that the Right is insane. They seem [leftists] genuinely unable to grasp the concept of an internal monologue, to the point of thinking such a thing must be a pathology.

There is another condition I would like to introduce to this, unconnected to Jaynes, and that is the psychological condition known as aphantasia. This is the condition of lacking a mind’s eye. If this is difficult for you to imagine, think of people with tone deafness. They lack a “mind’s ear” so to speak.

Aphantasia is an inability to form a mental abstract of visual imagery. It is exceedingly rare, but curiously it is slightly more common in speakers of tonal languages (Chinese being the most well-known such language). I do not think it coincidence that the Chinese market can’t get enough of visually intensive films such as comic book movies that simultaneously place no demands on an audience to visualize anything abstractly. Again, there seemingly is a connection between language and the internal processing of the mind.

In light of the Left’s reaction to the NPC meme, what I am proposing is as follows; NPCs are neither bicameral nor unicameral but instead noncameral, and may exhibit at least some form of aphantasia.

If this is the case, it makes me consider what Chu & Laura pointed out below:



I suspect it has to do with differences, as you said, and also with the fact that everyone grew up differently. Some were more encouraged to "imagine", to visualize, etc. Others were told that was bad (my case, for example). So, if you haven't done it throughout your whole life, it may still be there, but it's not so habitual/easy a practice? No idea!

I think maybe people being unable to do this stems from living in an age of TV and movies. When you read a book, you have to visualize everything happening - or at least I do. And I would much rather read a book than watch a movie. The movies I make in my head are way more interesting than those on screens.

This makes a whole lot of sense! My childhood was nothing but Movies, TV and Video games. I didn’t pick up reading until much later, so perhaps there is something to that part of the brain simply not being exercised enough?

This actually made me think of a TV Show (ironically) where one of the characters was encouraged to start reading. And when she finally did she got hooked on it and said something to the effect of: “It’s like having a tv in your head”.

I never suspected this reflected any degree of literality.


I wouldn't say I see super clearly, but if I concentrate or meditate, it's clearer. It used to be really hard for me, but it has gotten a bit better.
 I am more auditive than visual. Maybe that could have something to do with it?




I think I relate to your experience here and would say I’m more Auditory as well. In deep meditative states, images bright as day, clear as a picture, have shown themselves in my minds eye. No doubt about that.

But when trying to do it on the fly, I just get vague impressions or nothing at all. Almost like an image that has a layer of black shrouding it; so there’s an awareness for sure, but without any clarity.

Do you dream/remember your dreams Andrew?

Yes, all the time.

Andrew or anyone else with aphantasia: do you daydream (with imagery)?

I do/can. But it seems to be more of a Narrative than a visual. Any imagery that’s there is very, very faint .

Also, when you're tired and dozing off a bit, do you get hypnogogic dream-like images?

Yes. And I’ve had instances where bordering sleep, I have gotten very vivid visuals, but can’t do it on the fly.

But these things are kind of hard to compare, because how would you know if someone else's mental image or sound is clearer than yours?

Very true. And just gives me more of a respect for each one of our individual experiences of reality.

As for auditory wired people, do you mix or rearrange songs in your mind occasionally?

Not sure what you mean by mix or rearrange songs. But I can definitely remember certain parts of songs and what they sound like. I was researching this a bit more last night and came across people mentioning how they’re able to actually hear songs as clear as if they had headphones on.

I’ve had this happen maybe once or twice before in states bordering sleep, but nothing close to what these people were describing being able to do at will.

I talked to a person who had trouble with this and had to "train" for years in order to acquire the "skill". So I guess it's a skill that one can lose in childhood if not exercised, and maybe it can be recoverd with some kind of a sustained effort. OSIT

If this is the case, this would seem to give support to the idea that this is something that can be developed if underdeveloped. Thanks mkrnhr for mentioning this!

as I seem to have an exaggerated ability to play movies in my mind.

I truly find this fascinating as I can’t ‘imagine’ what that would be like to play movies in ones mind.

What do you 'see' when you think of future events or plan for upcoming activities? I picture myself engaging in future activities. Do you "talk yourself through" future events?

Yes, that’s exactly what I do. It’s more of a narrative experience.

For example, if you were a witness to a crime and you don't have a aphantasia, there's a good chance you are open to suggestion when relaying your account of events or having to identify someone in a line-up...just an aside.

That’s interesting. Would this be because a person without aphantasia would be more visually susceptible, hence becoming confused on which Visual representation is the correct one?

Well, "seeing" things with the mind's eye IS VERY MUCH LIKE REMEMBERING HOW THINGS LOOK.

When I close my eyes to visualize something, I have the "blackness" or cloud like things going on behind my eyes, too. BUT the imaginal image is in a different place than something you see with your eyes or any kind of physical eyes.

If you are doing a quick visualization, it is "ghostly", but if you concentrate on something over time, it can become as real in your mind as if it were in the room with you. Almost like your closed eyelids were a screen on which things are projected.

Thanks Laura, this helps a lot!

In the rare occasions when visuals were Vivid, I did make similar observations such as:
1. The visual was as real as if it was in the room with me or I was in the room with it.
2. It comes from a different place than something seen with the physical eyes.

Having had these rare experiences, it does give me hope that this is something that can be exercised and possibly developed. I think being able to do this would help a ton when trying to create or engineer something physical.

In the way it seems to help Alejo with Cabinetry work, for example.

So, just practice remembering how things look and meditate on some simple objects regularly. I'm sure you can train your mind to do this more easily.

Thank you! I will definitely put this into practice.

I wonder if it could be practised— for instance, thinking of an object (an apple, progressing to something more difficult) and drawing a picture of it without it being present. Or, drawing something with one’s eyes closed, to train oneself to visualize? I would be curious to learn if that helps.

I’ve been wondering the same too, so going to try Lauras suggestion above!

I have the opposite problem. As a schizophrenic, I'm seeing things unreal even when I have my eyes closed! I'd love a chilled out life without such occurrences, I really don't think aphantasia is anything to fuss over. To me, it sounds like a blessing.

Wow - that must be horrible! In this case, being an Aphantasiac would seem to provide much desired mental rest/peace from such things. So sorry to hear you have to go through that SlipNet.

I wonder how things would be remembered without visuals? If I ask myself, 'where have I put my car keys?' for example, I visualise possible locations or retrace my steps when I last had them in my mind while I go looking for them.

Seems to be more narrative for me. I.E. “What did I do yesterday? I went here. Then I did this. Then, this happened...”, etc. I have a vague representation of a remembered visual associated with each narrative, but it’s not dominant at all.

In any case, maybe reading is good practice for visualising.

Ya. And maybe fictional stories would be better, since there would seem to be a greater emphasis on visual descriptions? I honestly don’t know. I’ve haven't read much fiction.

I've often said that when I'm reading a good book after a while the words on the page kind of take a back seat to the movie in my mind and sometimes it seems as though I stop seeing the words altogether. It can be a difficult task to stay on point with dense or technical material though and I often need to turn back a page or so because the movie in my mind has diverged from the text.


That’s sounds absolutely incredible! I wonder what that experience would be like? However, with dense or technical material, I think I’m able to stay on point fairly easy curiously enough.

 

[SlipNet]

One thing I would add is that I am a painter/artist in my spare time, so I think I have a very well developed visual sense anyway, regardless of other factors. I was very into videogames as a kid too, always the graphics that drew me in. To be honest, I think a keen visual sense can be developed. Watch the "Dollars" trilogy of westerns by Sergio Leone, he based his directorial style on portraits by Jan Vermeer, a phenomenal artist who revoltionised subtlety of colour and shade. So Leone would set the scene with incredible close ups of the characters in his films, awesome when you see them, I highly recommend the films, very good stories too.

 

[Laura]

Giving up movies and books for awhile might be in order. Read!!!

 

[Alejo]

That to me is simply amazing.

So, just to clarify: you're able to 'see' in your minds eye, as clear as day, 3D objects that (I'm assuming) you can then manipulate and control in order to find proper solutions, without losing the image held?

Yes, but it’s like it is a process like it has been described here.

First there’s a need and urgency, someone calls rather upset at an issue, so my first goal is to visualize the issue as they’re describing it, because I need to understand it otherwise I can’t address it.

So there’s an emotional impetus implied in the entire situation as you can imagine. It’s my job and dealing with upset clients isn’t particularly pleasant so it’s almost instinctive to want to diplomatically calm things down and so on.

And once I “see” the issue and understand how it is an issue, and how it came to be based on other information and so on, I move to address it by using other techniques, what is expected, what is acceptable, and what will it look like, so that I can describe it back to people in a way they can comprehend it.

Now, by no means I want to describe myself as mr visualizing over here, specially since I’ve been at this for years, but I do think that having a purpose (in my case problem solving) for “seeing” things that aren’t there helps a lot. Having previous experience as well as foreknowledge helps a lot too. If I say to some people that the dovetail on the drawer box came broken, and they don’t know what it is, it won’t bring any images to their minds, they have to reference (I didn’t at some point)

But if I say, there’s a red soccer ball on the grass, most people will be able to see it. And not only that but if you’ve ever seen and touched a soccer ball and grass you’ll be able to see a more detailed image and remember what the ball feels like in your hand and about how much it weighs and so on. So the picture becomes vividly detailed.

So like Laura was saying, visualizing things is very much tied to remembering, and this is tied to experiences and knowledge of what’s possible. And it’s like a muscle, the more you train it, the stronger it gets.

So I would see their advice, perhaps start small and cutaway a few hours a week to read something, or perhaps you can start by thinking about something small, not so specific at first and then get more specific and then get creative.

I may be way off here but, imagine a red soccer ball on the grass and then after that image becomes more detailed, make the ball yellow or something, or change the weather... maybe it’s grass but it’s a snowy day or it has rained so there’s no sun, there’s no rush, and then maybe give yourself a purpose and write down (on a journal) what you see as if you had to explain it to someone who isn’t there.

And go at your pace, if there’s a few details at first then that’s it, but you may pick up more next time you come back.

just a thought.

 

[mrtn]

When I was a kid, before I started to read, I used to listen to 'Hörspiele' (German for 'audio drama', 'radio drama'?) like 'TKKG' for example, or 'Die drei ???'. I still can go back to the memories of these and clearly see the scenes and people. While reading, your eyes are doing some work and generate visual input, but when only listening, your visual processing is rather passive and might be easier to be superimposed by that other visual space/layer.

Some other ideas I had that might be interesting to try:

- There is this game where one person 'draws' with his/her finger something on another person's back, like a letter or a simple object, an animal for example, and the other person must guess what has been drawn.

- With eyes closed put your hands in front of you with the palms facing each other, then put your hands in a certain distance to each other, like 10cm or 50cm. Do you 'see' your arms/hands while doing this? (Just an idea, it might have more to do with muscle memory than with visualization)

- Maybe try to play with someone a small version 'Battleship' in you mind with your eyes closed. With a 4x4 matrix and only a single 2x1 ship.

  A B C D
1 ~ ~ ~ ~
2 ~ ~ ~ ~
3 ~ ~ # ~
4 ~ ~ # ~

I never tried that though

- What happens if you try to find your way through a completely dark room or with eyes closed?

 

[Matthew]

Since you dream Andrew and that is playtime for the soul, osit, I don't think you have to worry about being an OP!

You are getting some great feedback here so I am interested to see how it progresses with you after you have been making some changes for awhile .

 

[mkrnhr]

When I was a kid, before I started to read, I used to listen to 'Hörspiele' (German for 'audio drama', 'radio drama'?) like 'TKKG' for example, or 'Die drei ???'. I still can go back to the memories of these and clearly see the scenes and people. While reading, your eyes are doing some work and generate visual input, but when only listening, your visual processing is rather passive and might be easier to be superimposed by that other visual space/layer.

It is only recently that story telling has disappeared with the advent of television. My guess is that people have been using active imagination for a very long time before, not only during quiet moments reciting stories and poems, but also during everyday activities like hunting and avoiding natural accidents.

 

[Andrew]

Now, by no means I want to describe myself as mr visualizing over here, specially since I’ve been at this for years, but I do think that having a purpose (in my case problem solving) for “seeing” things that aren’t there helps a lot.

Makes sense. And thank you for taking the time to elaborate more on how you experience this.

But if I say, there’s a red soccer ball on the grass, most people will be able to see it. And not only that but if you’ve ever seen and touched a soccer ball and grass you’ll be able to see a more detailed image and remember what the ball feels like in your hand and about how much it weighs and so on. So the picture becomes vividly detailed.

So like Laura was saying, visualizing things is very much tied to remembering, and this is tied to experiences and knowledge of what’s possible. And it’s like a muscle, the more you train it, the stronger it gets.

Interesting enough, while I have a hard time with seeing the red soccer ball, I don't have trouble with what it feels like or the weight of it. But in reference to it being tied to 'remembering' that helps a lot.

So I would see their advice, perhaps start small and cutaway a few hours a week to read something, or perhaps you can start by thinking about something small, not so specific at first and then get more specific and then get creative.

Ya, I'm guilty of having fallen off the reading wagon due to something I read in the wave that upset me a bit. But hearing it come straight from Laura gives me the push I think I needed.

For the past few days I've been practicing with basic shapes. Figured that was easy enough. I can sort of get the impressions of them in my minds eye but they're still far from clear. Like you said, a muscle that needs to be trained.

With eyes closed put your hands in front of you with the palms facing each other, then put your hands in a certain distance to each other, like 10cm or 50cm. Do you 'see' your arms/hands while doing this? (Just an idea, it might have more to do with muscle memory than with visualization)

Interesting that you bring this up. During EE after reaching a certain state of relaxation, I've observed this. While I don't see my hands clearly, it's more of like an 'energy' impression I get that's left over temporarily.

For example, I recall bringing up my hands in front of my closed eyes (in a dark room) and making a fist then releasing it and I get a faint impression of my hands doing that, before the impression fades away.

Very interesting indeed.

- What happens if you try to find your way through a completely dark room or with eyes closed?

I stumble around cautiously or bump into things

Do you experience something different?

Since you dream Andrew and that is playtime for the soul, osit, I don't think you have to worry about being an OP!

You are getting some great feedback here so I am interested to see how it progresses with you after you have been making some changes for awhile .

Thanks strategic enclosure. In all honesty, that was a concern of mine. Or, that I was a Psychopath or something. Although, how can one really know? I may think I have a soul with some degree of self-awareness, consciousness and empathy - but do I really?

Will update this thread if any progress is made.

It is only recently that story telling has disappeared with the advent of television. My guess is that people have been using active imagination for a very long time before

This is a good point. Especially since story-telling was how information was passed down to others, right? Now, we can dump that part of our awareness into an external source that doesn't require the use of that mental function.

Makes me really reflect now, on why movies/video games were introduced to me at such an early age. Get me addicted to them early on so I lose that ability? Curious.

 

[loreta]

Read! Read is a good way to exercise the brain and the world of imagination. The brain is a mystery, a splendid machine. You can read Oliver Sacks an expert on brain, maybe he can give you some inputs about this subject. Also, you can take a guide meditation, and maybe this will help you with patience and time.

Imagination is, for me, essential like air, like water. The spirit of imagination and be able to see and create images,helps you to understand and share. the heart needs it.

I am sure there are exercises for work visualisation. Like these ones

5 Powerful Visualization Exercises and Techniques [Step-by-Step Walk-Through]

Would a few simple visualization exercises help you experience more success with memory techniques? This post gives you 5 of the best.

www.magneticmemorymethod.com

 

[mrtn]

I stumble around cautiously or bump into things

Do you experience something different?

I kind of see my surroundings as good as I can remember them. It's not very detailed actually, more a spacial abstraction of the objects, the shapes and edges. When I touch something the inner image gets realigned to my actual position if my imagination was wrong etc. If I turn my head my imagination turns as well. Funny, when I tried it right now again and looked eyes closed in some corner of my room, then I saw something there that was present in another room I lived in once in a different place than today. I guess if I was to try it in a place I do not know, then I would still have imagery and see things, even though they are not there, as all kinds of memories of other places would pop up and try to match my impressions.

 

[3DStudent]

I used to draw a lot. But could NEVER draw something from the mind. An image would either have to be copied or a reference photo used to create something coherent. If I tried free-handing, the drawings would be abstract. 


That's a common gripe among artists. I think it's hard to develop, unless you have photographic memory. Even if you look at master artist Kim Jung Gi, he is said to create a sort of perspective grid in his mind and overlay that onto the paper. If you want realism, you need a reference, no need to recreate the universe.

With terms like 'dont think of a pink elephant', I have an idea of what that would look like. And from that ‘idea’ a very faint ‘impression’ of a cartoon like elephant appears but it might as well not even be there. It’s hard to explain.

When you said that, a realistic elephant came to mind, but with like a pink overlay. Something like this but more zoomed in and it was facing the camera:

Not sure what you mean by mix or rearrange songs. But I can definitely remember certain parts of songs and what they sound like. I was researching this a bit more last night and came across people mentioning how they’re able to actually hear songs as clear as if they had headphones on.

I meant mix or compose like a DJ would. Like editing them if you didn't like how they go or changing the genre. It's more of a thing I do when really calm and inspired and have enhanced visual or auditory mind content going on. Hearing songs as clear as with headphones on is something that takes work for me, like I have to keep playing the song over in order to get it exactly as it actually sounds.

Yes, that’s exactly what I do. It’s more of a narrative experience.

When I think about it, I think my future planning is more narrative too. I'm not a real long term planner, though. I'd think that imaging one's self doing things in the moment helps with practicing physical activities (I'm thinking of the studies that show imaging practicing basketball or piano actually improved their ability).

That’s interesting. Would this be because a person without aphantasia would be more visually susceptible, hence becoming confused on which Visual representation is the correct one?

I think it means that you'd not be able to edit your visual memory after the fact, because you didn't store it visually to begin with.

Makes me really reflect now, on why movies/video games were introduced to me at such an early age. Get me addicted to them early on so I lose that ability? Curious.

I started playing video games around the age of 4, and I watched a lot of TV. I wasn't a book worm, but remember reading Goosebumps and Animorphs. And I would daydream a lot too. I guess there are a few factors that can be going on.

When I touch something the inner image gets realigned to my actual position if my imagination was wrong etc. If I turn my head my imagination turns as well.

It sounds like a mental map. It reminds me of how taxi drivers are said to have a large internal mental map of the streets in a city (hippocampus I think).

 

[Pecha]

I found some recent videos on YouTube with people that have no internal monologue and/or have aphantasia:

Q&A with a person who does not have an internal monologue

My Girlfriend Has No Inner Monologue or Mind's Eye | Q&A

It's really interesting how different people's brains can work.

A good place I found to practice visualization besides meditation is in the shower. I'd imagine something wholesome such as a tree on a hill overlooking plains in the distance. Visualization is like a muscle. When it's not used for a while, there's only faint images or images that last for only a few seconds, but with practice they can get clearer.

 

[Persej]

I also have a sort of aphanstasia. I can imagine things, but in a very primitive form, without colors and details. I cannot remember things visually very well. If I see a person for the first time in my life, I cannot recognize them the next time I see them. I have to see somebody at least two times to remember their face. So I would be very bad if I had to identify someone in a line-up that I only saw once.

I think with internal monologue, which I am currently trying to reduce. I see that people have different combinations of how their brains work, which really is very interesting and it's a shame that there is no good studies on that.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

I also have a sort of aphanstasia. I can imagine things, but in a very primitive form, without colors and details. I cannot remember things visually very well. If I see a person for the first time in my life, I cannot recognize them the next time I see them. I have to see somebody at least two times to remember their face. So I would be very bad if I had to identify someone in a line-up that I only saw once.

I think with internal monologue, which I am currently trying to reduce. I see that people have different combinations of how their brains work, which really is very interesting and it's a shame that there is no good studies on that.

With reference to Laura's post earlier in this thread, Gurdjieff gave an exercise for learning to visualize. Basically, sit in front of a fairly simple object and gaze at it. Then close your eyes and try to retain the object in your mind's eye. Rinse and repeat - that's pretty much it. Each time you open your eyes again, you get an instant evaluation of your visualization, e.g., "Nope, that part of the apple is wider, shinier, a deeper red, etc." The goal was to be able to see the image as clearly with your eyes closed as with your eyes open. He also taught Kathryn Hulme how to take perfectly accurate "mental photographs" that lasted the rest of her life. She didn't say how, but I'd guess that it probably started with that basic exercise.

 

[Jenn]

Thank you for sharing AI, this exercise would be really helpful for me when I'm studying anatomy. In examinations, I have had to recall exactly where a muscle, bone or nerve is and have found it really challenging, even though I used a mixture of learning techniques. It will be interesting to practice this!