Do you think you are rational?

[trendsetter37]

This is really fascinating and disconcerting all in the same vain.

I think the essence of all of this is, that no matter how hard you try, you won't be able to be rational on your own.

I agree and this seems to be the crux of the matter. Overall it is not comforting in the least. I have kind of taken the habit of almost erring on the side of self-deprecation when trying to not be overly confident in my ponderings. Or so I am told, but I think that once you think you really know something is also one of the most vulnerable times of the psyche. Over rationalization, which leads to vindication seems to be a very slippery slope.

Especially when things like the above study are over-looked or taken out of the equation.

Also I may taking this out of context but it reminded me of this quote from the C's.

Q: (L) Let me ask this one before the tape runs out and we take a break. What is the "ultimate secret" being protected by the Consortium?

A: You are not in control of yourselves, you are an experiment.

I guess the above could be similar to the priming effect that body position and language has on the psyche. Most importantly it is out of the individual's awareness for the most part.

and this...

pg. 52

Priming effects take many forms. If the idea of EAT is currently on your mind (whether or not you are conscious of it), you will be quicker than usual to recognize the word SOUP when it is spoken in a whisper or presented in a blurry font. And of course you are primed not only for the idea of soup but also for a multitude of food-related ideas...

Another major advance in our understanding of memory was the discovery that priming is not restricted to concepts and words. You cannot know this from conscious experience, of course but you must accept the alien idea that your actions and your emotions can be primed by events of which you are not even aware.

"The Florida Effect"
pg.53

...In an experiment that became an instant classic, the psychologist John Bargh and his collaborators asked students at New York University--most aged eighteen to twenty-two-- to assemble four-word sentence from a set of five words (for example, "finds he it yellow instantly"). For one group of students, half the scrambled sentences contained words associated with the elderly, such as Florida, forgetful, bald, gray, or wrinkle. When they had completed that task, the young participants were sent out to do another experiment in an office down the hall. That short walk was what the experiment was about. The researchers unobtrusively measured the time it took people to get from one end of the corridor to the other. As Bargh had predicted, the young people who had fashioned a sentence from words with an elderly theme walked down the hallway significantly more slowly than the others.

The "Florida effect" involves two stages of priming. First, the set of words primes thought of old age, though the word old is never mentioned; second, these thoughts prime a behaviour, walking slowly, which is associated with old age. All this happens without awareness. When they were questioned afterward, none of the students reported noticing that the words had a common theme, and they all insisted that nothing they did after the first experiment could have been influenced by the words they had encountered.

...wow we REALLY are not in control or ourselves.

Now it gets interesting. Those who shook their heads from side to side were found to strongly disagree with the tuition hike. In fact, their average "appropriate" tuition was $467 per year. That's almost 20% lower than the first group. Even though they thought they were simply testing the headphones, the process of shaking their heads from side to side - as though saying "no" - affected their opinion dramatically.

What about those who were nodding their heads up and down, as though saying "yes?" They were very persuaded by the editorial. Even though it would cost them personally, they thought, on average, that the tuition should be raised to $646.

If the simple act of moving our heads up and down or from side to side can be so influential in the opinions we have, what else is affecting our thinking process? More on that in future articles. In any case, I think you can start to see that completely rational opinions may be more of a myth than a reality.

Yep, I agree we are bombarded daily by adverts that use catchy music while they inform you of their product. What if that music causes you to bob your head in agreeance! Even if you do not consciously like what they are offering? It is kinda of eery really and reminds of an event my daughter's school had for them. They arranged a concert to celebrate America or something along those lines. She came home and said it was fun and that there was lot's of loud music and bright flashing lights.

We just can't catch a break can we.

 

[Altair]

"The Florida Effect"
pg.53

...In an experiment that became an instant classic, the psychologist John Bargh and his collaborators asked students at New York University--most aged eighteen to twenty-two-- to assemble four-word sentence from a set of five words (for example, "finds he it yellow instantly"). For one group of students, half the scrambled sentences contained words associated with the elderly, such as Florida, forgetful, bald, gray, or wrinkle. When they had completed that task, the young participants were sent out to do another experiment in an office down the hall. That short walk was what the experiment was about. The researchers unobtrusively measured the time it took people to get from one end of the corridor to the other. As Bargh had predicted, the young people who had fashioned a sentence from words with an elderly theme walked down the hallway significantly more slowly than the others.

The "Florida effect" involves two stages of priming. First, the set of words primes thought of old age, though the word old is never mentioned; second, these thoughts prime a behaviour, walking slowly, which is associated with old age. All this happens without awareness. When they were questioned afterward, none of the students reported noticing that the words had a common theme, and they all insisted that nothing they did after the first experiment could have been influenced by the words they had encountered.

I think it's really not possible to be protected against all subliminal influences. But we still have choice to decide to some extent what kind of information input (impressions) we want to be exposed to. If we don't watch TV and don't consume mainstream media, music, books, public events, modern "art", ... (everything which is a part of the Program), if we are aware of that subliminal manipulation can come from all sides and are always attentive to that, if we regularly bring this malevolent programming from our unconsciousness to our consciousness (EE, SRT), all that can protect to some extent.

My 2 cents

 

[A Jay]

This is really fascinating and disconcerting all in the same vain...

Yep, I agree we are bombarded daily by adverts that use catchy music while they inform you of their product. What if that music causes you to bob your head in agreeance! Even if you do not consciously like what they are offering? It is kinda of eery really and reminds of an event my daughter's school had for them. They arranged a concert to celebrate America or something along those lines. She came home and said it was fun and that there was lot's of loud music and bright flashing lights.

We just can't catch a break can we.

I've seen some commercials with catchy dub-step, and now that I think about them I distinctly remember bobbing my head to the music! I'm pretty sure most are for cars I can't afford, but still I was being primed to think I did need a new car and that the ones advertised were good options!

There is just SO MUCH all around us that influences how we think and what we think, how we feel, etc. And most of it just continues or triggers the conditioning we received as children. Really, REALLY, grokking this can be terrifying.

Terrifying is right!

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Reminds me of this TED talk, where researchers found that adopting a 'powerful' or 'powerless' stance for 2 minutes increased or decreased the amount of testosterone and cortisol in saliva.

_http://www.ted.com/talks/amy_cuddy_your_body_language_shapes_who_you_are

There is just SO MUCH all around us that influences how we think and what we think, how we feel, etc. And most of it just continues or triggers the conditioning we received as children. Really, REALLY, grokking this can be terrifying.

And this is exactly what G was talking about. He once described the kundabuffer as "automatic associations". We are constantly influenced, our state is constantly being provoked by factors that we're totally aware of, which then color and direct our thinking. And we automatically assume that this is "us". The possibilities here are just endless. We feel sad, angry, happy, irritable, superior, inferior, scared, brave, and we identify with this, don't even question that these feelings could be totally inappropriate. And we think certain thoughts, that are really just random associations, and maybe convince ourselves of our own genius, or stupidity. Our thoughts can trigger associations in our feelings, and vice versa. And our posture, movements, and the chemicals and 'emanations' around us, do the same. And we think we are in control! We have the audacity, and the ignorance, to say, "*I* am angry" or whatever. That's what G's exercises are so important. Separating I from it. I am not angry, it is.

 

[rymw]

After reading through this thread I can't help thinking of Caesar's response in the latest July 12 session with the C's.


Q: (Atriedes) Did you have any vices?
A: None that controlled me.


Guess we should ask Caesar again how he managed to duck out of the programmings and I'm sure there were plenty even in his day and time.

 

[A Jay]

Reminds me of this TED talk, where researchers found that adopting a 'powerful' or 'powerless' stance for 2 minutes increased or decreased the amount of testosterone and cortisol in saliva.

_http://www.ted.com/talks/amy_cuddy_your_body_language_shapes_who_you_are

There is just SO MUCH all around us that influences how we think and what we think, how we feel, etc. And most of it just continues or triggers the conditioning we received as children. Really, REALLY, grokking this can be terrifying.

And this is exactly what G was talking about. He once described the kundabuffer as "automatic associations". We are constantly influenced, our state is constantly being provoked by factors that we're totally aware of, which then color and direct our thinking. And we automatically assume that this is "us". The possibilities here are just endless. We feel sad, angry, happy, irritable, superior, inferior, scared, brave, and we identify with this, don't even question that these feelings could be totally inappropriate. And we think certain thoughts, that are really just random associations, and maybe convince ourselves of our own genius, or stupidity. Our thoughts can trigger associations in our feelings, and vice versa. And our posture, movements, and the chemicals and 'emanations' around us, do the same. And we think we are in control! We have the audacity, and the ignorance, to say, "*I* am angry" or whatever. That's what G's exercises are so important. Separating I from it. I am not angry, it is.

I didn't realize that was one of G's exercises, but I've been doing this separation of 'I' from 'it' for a few weeks as an exercise in awareness and I'm beginning to see my machine as a machine in the literal and not just theoretical sense. Also, things seem to have a different quality to them since I began the exercises, like things are more real than before.

 

[Psalehesost]

There is just SO MUCH all around us that influences how we think and what we think, how we feel, etc. And most of it just continues or triggers the conditioning we received as children. Really, REALLY, grokking this can be terrifying.

And this is exactly what G was talking about. He once described the kundabuffer as "automatic associations". We are constantly influenced, our state is constantly being provoked by factors that we're totally [un]aware of, which then color and direct our thinking. And we automatically assume that this is "us". The possibilities here are just endless. We feel sad, angry, happy, irritable, superior, inferior, scared, brave, and we identify with this, don't even question that these feelings could be totally inappropriate. And we think certain thoughts, that are really just random associations, and maybe convince ourselves of our own genius, or stupidity. Our thoughts can trigger associations in our feelings, and vice versa. And our posture, movements, and the chemicals and 'emanations' around us, do the same. And we think we are in control! We have the audacity, and the ignorance, to say, "*I* am angry" or whatever. That's what G's exercises are so important. Separating I from it. I am not angry, it is.

G. also said that the self exists only in the abstract as a concept, and in the physical as a thing (i.e. body) - the self we believe in does not really exist. The sense of one's machine as a "self" comes from a continuity of memory and identification. David DiSalvo briefly goes into this in Brain Changer as well, in describing the role of narrative: A main difference between, say, a schizophrenic and a "sane" person, is that the sane person has an unbroken narrative while the other has literally "lost the plot". Without a consistent narrative, there no consistent "self". And the sense of a consistent "self" is simply an illusion maintained by keeping up a consistent narrative, which people normally do.

Then we have the question of positive disintegration, which I think is in very large part about questioning and deconstructing one's narrative and ongoing narration. (Something that does not come by just thinking about it.) Only in this way can one really see how senseless one is - almost completely a collection of meaningless impulses, feelings, associations, thoughts - and perhaps come to reach what else there is, of value, within one's self. Then, with new understanding (adding information), one's narrative and ongoing narration can be rebuilt to be of a different quality. A process which repeats, sometimes on a larger scale, sometimes on a smaller...

Ultimately, looking at things objectively, there is no such thing as a sane human being. But with a lifetime of work, we can come closer...

 

[sarahelizabeth]

I certainly notice times of irrationality in myself.. So often. I wonder where it comes from and why it's there, why can't I think rationally and logically in these times? How do we break the chains of this social conditioning?

Sometimes I feel so helpless to my mind. I'm coming to the conclusion that it is just going to take a whole lot of work. I just get so impatient. When I think back over the past year and how much I have grown I see that I have been able to rationalise my thoughts faster. And think less irrational thoughts.

Then there are times I get so confused as to what is and isn't a rational thought.

 

[MusicMan]

...almost nobody really wants to do that because it is darn hard and can be intensely painful.

...part of which comes from agony of doubt. You start to doubt yourself, what you're doing, what you've read, the sanity of other people, etc., which means the predator's mind is really working on ya.

Exactly. And that predator's mind is GOOD! It looks for EVERYTHING that it can nitpick and then, because of nitpicky things it finds that are not quite the thing, it goes into black and white thinking, builds an elaborate conspiracy theory, and dumps the whole thing out.

Maybe I should start headbanging, or vigourously nodding, when I am having my cold shower, and thinking: "Die, lizzies, die!".

 

[Anamarija]

If I think that is something good for me it is very easy to convince me to do that ;).

 

[Stefan]

Our experience of 'self' is a trailing collection of emotional, physical and visual memories we use to form an opinion about ourselves and others. The world around us creates our emotional impulses which in turn trigger thought patterns/ways to rationalize our intent to take appropriate actions to put things back to normal according to our own perspective and sensible reasoning. This does not mean that our reactions are rational. They maybe be rational if we factor in the accepted norms of cultural behaviors to tell us which is right and which is wrong. We may think we did the right thing if approved by the emotionless independent observer. Would that be appropriate to always seek approval and validation of our actions? I think so.

We start indoctrinating children in very early ages the accepted attitudes and cultural concepts how to fit in a progressively self-destructing society. We hand over our children the basic survival kits in a predatory world full of irrationalism, absurdity, idiotism, incompetence, arrogance, psychopathy, ignorance, indifference, materialism, to name a few. Anyone who shows signs of weakness against the predatory nature of the world maybe labeled mental sickness that needs to be cured. That is just one example. This is the world we live in today. Children are irrational by nature, but only do we put them back on the right track using our flawed logic.

In many cases it is impossible to be rational when the nonsense is unassailable by any logic. The only rational thing left to do is to withdraw.