Doing and not-doing

[obyvatel]

Appreciate the clarification Menna. I would suggest that at some later point of time you re-read the post where the "temporary" mention was there and look at the context in which it was made and see if it could be interpreted differently. Also, do consider sharing your experiences with the exercise as you practice it more.

 

[obyvatel]

Using the lower centers is an energy drain so the closer one gets to using higher centers I feel energy is then used efficiently. But there are three parts to this IMO. The use of energy by draining lower centers (no contact with higher)...Progress being made a mix of non efficient use of energy lower centers mixed with efficient energy higher center but the majority of energy being used is by lower center... and then the tipping point of 51% or more higher center use of energy. At this point I would think that organically little by little the higher centers would take over as the being would get a feel of this efficient energy higher centers being used and would hold this feeling longer n longer n longer. When one is immersed in the lower center or the majority of life is being used by the lower centers it is tough to see what and how to do to live from higher because the person is dominated by lower and draining energy use.

So what you're saying is that in order for the energy or fuel to get to the higher centers, it can't be used up by the lower centers. So we need to stop engaging our lower centers in our relationships with ourselves and others, in order for the energy to be available to the higher centers.

I think this would mean that to truly love someone, you wouldn't be felling jealous or upset or even attached to them emotionally, because this would mean that the lower centers are being used and are therefore soaking up all the fuel. Essentially we need to not do the emotions and thoughts of the lower centers.

A couple of points made in ISOTM as well as Gnosis regarding this:

- the higher centers are said to be working as they are supposed to work; connection with the higher centers are not established in man because of the wrong, unbalanced work of the lower centers

- the higher centers work with a different quality of energy (hydrogen in 4th Way terminology) than the lower centers

[quote author=Archaea]

Do you have some data supporting the possibility of the prefrontal cortex voluntarily inhibiting the basic mechanism of automatic visual processing ? Closing one's eyes, turning head away etc does not count.

I don't have any empirical data, but I do have a little bit of logic.

If we can change the way we view the cube at will, so we can change whether the lower or upper square pops out on command, and if this perception is created (for lack of a better term) in the visual cortex, then there would have to be a flow of information from the prefrontal cortex to the visual cortex.
[/quote]

I thought you would say that after I posted the response to you.

[quote author=Archaea]
However, I'm not sure where this change in perception is created in the brain. I looked up the Wikipedia page for the visual cortex, but I don't really feel like reading it now. I don't suppose you know off the top of your head?
[/quote]

I do not.


[quote author=archaea]

If the predator's mind was an internal influence then gaining the ability to change perceptual modes wouldn't be of any help, and could even be a drain on the energy needed to deal with it. Whereas if the predators mind was an external influence then perceptual flexibility could be useful for being able to perceive the predator and for making informed choices about countering it. OSIT
[/quote]

Here is another perspective. It would make more sense if you have read ISOTM - if you have not, it is highly recommended.

In 4th Way, man is said to have instinctive, moving, emotional, intellectual and sexual centers along with two higher centers which usually do not play much of a role in regular life. Of these centers, the one that works the best and develops without much conscious interference is the instinctive center. Sense perception, regulation of body's internal physiological systems, automatic reflexes etc are all under the control of this instinctive center. The other centers - especially the moving, emotional and intellectual centers are not very developed at birth and need a lot of proper education to function as they are designed to do. These centers are in the most sorry state in contemporary man - so the need to work on developing and balancing these centers is the goal of 4th Way Work.

Typically, 4th Way Work, which seeks a balanced development of centers so that a connection with the higher centers can be established leading to the crystallization of the Real I, does not spend much effort behind specialized training of the instinctive center. Such training is found in the first way, the Way of the Fakir as Gurdjieff called it. It requires isolation from society and very specific instruction in exercises. People who persevere in this path often develop abilities over their bodies and perceptual abilities that are beyond the capability of ordinary man - but they are not found in regular society. Gurdjieff wrote that among the 4 Ways, this way of the Fakir takes longest to get particular results related to spiritual development. Now there could be people born with some genetic differences which give them some such capabilities as well - but as Laura wrote in the Wave regarding such "gifted" people, whether they could develop in the 4th Way sense is highly doubtful.

The kind of maneuvers of perception you are referring to basically pertain to training the instinctive center to work differently from its usual functioning. It is possible, but less likely to be successful for meaningful development - especially without instruction from suitable teacher. So my point was that it is more practical in terms of access to material and network and economical in terms of energy to work on the moving, emotional and intellectual centers than focusing on altering the working of the instinctive center.

[quote author=archaea]
So what if the man behind the curtain isn't really behind a curtain? What if the curtain's inside our mind, and we need to overcome our perceptual inflexibility in order to see behind it?
[/quote]

See above. Also, in this context it is worth mentioning that when the "curtains" get lifted by accident (it happens) and the person is unprepared to deal with what lies behind it, he loses his capacity for leading a regular life and often ends up in a psychiatric institution. So as long as the interest in such matters is at the casual thinking level, it is fine - at least it would not cause more harm. But in case someone wants to get serious with such stuff, the warnings need to be given.
So, fwiw.

 

[Archaea]

I thought you would say that after I posted the response to you.

Haha yeah looks like I'm starting to be predictable.

Here is another perspective. It would make more sense if you have read ISOTM - if you have not, it is highly recommended.

In 4th Way, man is said to have instinctive, moving, emotional, intellectual and sexual centers along with two higher centers which usually do not play much of a role in regular life. Of these centers, the one that works the best and develops without much conscious interference is the instinctive center. Sense perception, regulation of body's internal physiological systems, automatic reflexes etc are all under the control of this instinctive center. The other centers - especially the moving, emotional and intellectual centers are not very developed at birth and need a lot of proper education to function as they are designed to do. These centers are in the most sorry state in contemporary man - so the need to work on developing and balancing these centers is the goal of 4th Way Work.

Typically, 4th Way Work, which seeks a balanced development of centers so that a connection with the higher centers can be established leading to the crystallization of the Real I, does not spend much effort behind specialized training of the instinctive center. Such training is found in the first way, the Way of the Fakir as Gurdjieff called it. It requires isolation from society and very specific instruction in exercises. People who persevere in this path often develop abilities over their bodies and perceptual abilities that are beyond the capability of ordinary man - but they are not found in regular society. Gurdjieff wrote that among the 4 Ways, this way of the Fakir takes longest to get particular results related to spiritual development. Now there could be people born with some genetic differences which give them some such capabilities as well - but as Laura wrote in the Wave regarding such "gifted" people, whether they could develop in the 4th Way sense is highly doubtful.

The kind of maneuvers of perception you are referring to basically pertain to training the instinctive center to work differently from its usual functioning. It is possible, but less likely to be successful for meaningful development - especially without instruction from suitable teacher. So my point was that it is more practical in terms of access to material and network and economical in terms of energy to work on the moving, emotional and intellectual centers than focusing on altering the working of the instinctive center.

Oh I See... So for someone like me who is familiar with the Castaneda stuff, but not the Gurdjieff stuff, the best way to do the work isn't through the not doing of various perceptions, but is instead to practice being a warrior?

Or in other words, to try and eliminate self importance and the feeling of attachment, to be aware of the death of the self and the wonder of the world. Would this be a way of balancing the lower centers in general terms?


This also makes me curious about this snippet, from Session 13 July 2002:

Q: Do the "centers" as described by Mouravieff relate at all to the idea of "chakras?"

A: Quite closely. In an individual of the organic variety, the so-called higher chakras are "produced in effect" by stealing that energy from souled beings. This is what gives them the ability to emulate souled beings. The souled being is, in effect, perceiving a mirror of their own soul when they ascribe "soul qualities" to such beings.

Q: Is this a correspondence that starts at the basal chakra which relates to the sexual center as described by Mouravieff?

A: No. The "sexual center" corresponds to the solar plexus.

Lower moving center - basal chakra

Lower emotional - sexual chakra

Lower intellectual - throat chakra

Higher emotional - heart chakra

Higher intellectual - crown chakra

Q: (L) What about the so-called seventh, or "third eye" chakra?

A: Seer. The union of the heart and intellectual higher centers.

{Laura's note: This would "close the circuit" in the "shepherd's crook"

configuration.}

In this configuration, there are three lower centers and three higher centers. This is what I've been basing my comments and question about centers on so far. My thinking has been that these line up with the chakras described by Ra, and that they use various fuels.

I've been thinking, based upon what I've read on the forum about the different hydrogens, that the lower centers proper function is to transmute the hydrogens which they use into the hydrogens which the higher centers use. This can be accomplished through simply not allowing the lower centers to waste the fuel in our day to day lives.

However, I'm starting to wonder if I just made this all up. What are your thoughts on this configuration of the centers and the chakras described by Ra?

See above. Also, in this context it is worth mentioning that when the "curtains" get lifted by accident (it happens) and the person is unprepared to deal with what lies behind it, he loses his capacity for leading a regular life and often ends up in a psychiatric institution. So as long as the interest in such matters is at the casual thinking level, it is fine - at least it would not cause more harm. But in case someone wants to get serious with such stuff, the warnings need to be given.

I think you're right, but does this suggest that once someone has balanced their centers, that they will automatically experience a change in perception? Or as the person does the work will their perception gradually change little by little, until they are able to see behind the curtain?

Another question I have is in the Gurdjieff books does he ever explain how he became aware of the centers, i.e. was he able to perceive them? I know I should read the books, but all the good books have been slowly but surely disappearing from all the libraries and bookstores in my area. I might be able to order them from a bookshop somewhere though...

 

[obyvatel]

Oh I See... So for someone like me who is familiar with the Castaneda stuff, but not the Gurdjieff stuff, the best way to do the work isn't through the not doing of various perceptions, but is instead to practice being a warrior?

Or in other words, to try and eliminate self importance and the feeling of attachment, to be aware of the death of the self and the wonder of the world. Would this be a way of balancing the lower centers in general terms?

Reading ISOTM would be very helpful if you are serious about working on the self. It is easy imo to go astray trying to make sense of Castaneda's somewhat obscure terms. Not saying Gurdjieff is easy - but it has more practical material to work with.

[quote author=archaea]
I know I should read the books, but all the good books have been slowly but surely disappearing from all the libraries and bookstores in my area. I might be able to order them from a bookshop somewhere though...
[/quote]

If you cannot get hold of a copy of ISOTM, let us know. Something can be worked out.

[quote author=archaea]

This also makes me curious about this snippet, from Session 13 July 2002:

Q: Do the "centers" as described by Mouravieff relate at all to the idea of "chakras?"

A: Quite closely. In an individual of the organic variety, the so-called higher chakras are "produced in effect" by stealing that energy from souled beings. This is what gives them the ability to emulate souled beings. The souled being is, in effect, perceiving a mirror of their own soul when they ascribe "soul qualities" to such beings.

Q: Is this a correspondence that starts at the basal chakra which relates to the sexual center as described by Mouravieff?

A: No. The "sexual center" corresponds to the solar plexus.

Lower moving center - basal chakra

Lower emotional - sexual chakra

Lower intellectual - throat chakra

Higher emotional - heart chakra

Higher intellectual - crown chakra

Q: (L) What about the so-called seventh, or "third eye" chakra?

A: Seer. The union of the heart and intellectual higher centers.

{Laura's note: This would "close the circuit" in the "shepherd's crook"

configuration.}

In this configuration, there are three lower centers and three higher centers. This is what I've been basing my comments and question about centers on so far. My thinking has been that these line up with the chakras described by Ra, and that they use various fuels.

I've been thinking, based upon what I've read on the forum about the different hydrogens, that the lower centers proper function is to transmute the hydrogens which they use into the hydrogens which the higher centers use. This can be accomplished through simply not allowing the lower centers to waste the fuel in our day to day lives.
[/quote]

Yes, afaik. Though, understanding how the centers work at present, figuring out how to balance the lower centers and not waste fuel is an enormously challenging task.

[quote author=archaea]
What are your thoughts on this configuration of the centers and the chakras described by Ra?
[/quote]

Not much to add.


[quote author=archaea]

See above. Also, in this context it is worth mentioning that when the "curtains" get lifted by accident (it happens) and the person is unprepared to deal with what lies behind it, he loses his capacity for leading a regular life and often ends up in a psychiatric institution. So as long as the interest in such matters is at the casual thinking level, it is fine - at least it would not cause more harm. But in case someone wants to get serious with such stuff, the warnings need to be given.

I think you're right, but does this suggest that once someone has balanced their centers, that they will automatically experience a change in perception? Or as the person does the work will their perception gradually change little by little, until they are able to see behind the curtain?
[/quote]

That is my current understanding.

[quote author=Archaea]

Another question I have is in the Gurdjieff books does he ever explain how he became aware of the centers, i.e. was he able to perceive them?
[/quote]

From what I have read, it appears that the knowledge of the centers is an ancient knowledge that got passed down the generations and both Gurdjieff and Mouravieff acquired them from others.

 

[Altair]

We do not see in 3 dimensions from what is known in neuroscience. We see 2D images and the brain infers the third dimension following certain unconscious rules. These rules are automatic and hence perceptual illusions of certain types are not readily removed through the insight that they are illusions. Willpower alone is not enough to change visual perception. It is limited by hardware. Now activating new DNA that modifies the genetic expressions thus potentially modifying the hardware is a different story...

It's could be possible neuro-scientifically for the prefrontal cortex to be able to inhibit these automatic unconscious processes... couldn't it? I mean, sure, the prefrontal cortex is at the front of the brain, and the visual cortex is at the back of the brain, but the flow of information could, as far as I'm aware, travel both ways.

Do you have some data supporting the possibility of the prefrontal cortex voluntarily inhibiting the basic mechanism of automatic visual processing ? Closing one's eyes, turning head away etc does not count.


[quote author=archaea]

I have found that stopping this dialog altogether before it starts is not in my control. What is in my control is to
- recognize that the dialog that is taking place
- examine the dialog on the basis of certain basic rules to evaluate its nature
- refocus the dialog in a direction which is in alignment with my aims

All this needs attention and willpower.

Hmmm... Maybe you're just telling yourself it's out of your control. ;) In another thread you wrote this:

Yes, this can be useful especially when we are stuck in our own world struggling with some conflict. I have observed that really looking at what is around me, hearing the sounds around me, sensing the air coming through my nose as I breathe and on the skin, sensing the ground beneath my feet as I walk - all these simple mundane things that are always there but mostly ignored, gives me a boost of energy and helps me gather myself together. To me, this is getting in touch with "being" at the basic human level.

Have you payed attention to your internal dialogue while you were paying attention to these things. I've mentioned this before but I think just paying attention to the senses and what they're registering stops the internal dialogue. My understanding would be that the boost of energy you feel is just the energy which isn't being used.

I think it depends on how we look at stopping the internal dialog. If somebody is talking to us in real life, we can walk away or tune the other party out by putting our attention elsewhere. This means we are not hearing what is being said. To me inner dialog is the dialog with the unconscious. The unconscious is constantly communicating with the conscious mind. Many times the conscious mind does not hear for it is busy doing something else.

Predator's mind is a personification of one component of the unconscious - a part that does not belong to us. There are also other parts of the unconscious - parts of us that have been psychologically repressed for example. The body also communicates to the mind through the unconscious for issues that have not yet become so pressing that they would result in some full blown illness. The voice of these parts gets mixed up with voices that do not belong to us. The "higher centers" in 4th Way would also belong to the unconscious. The task of the conscious mind is to learn to discern which is which and give each its due.
....

My 2 cents
[/quote]

I guess Castaneda meant something else by stopping of the internal dialog. If the internal dialog is a dialog with the unconscious than it can go only unconsciously and you can't stop it. In my opinion internal dialog (as meant by Castaneda) is simply a chain of automatic thoughts/emotions arising from some other thought or external stimuli, your mind is leaping from one thought to the next association. And as soon as you get aware of these automatic thoughts you are able to intentionally stop them.

The predator's mind normally grows with our getting older. I think it consists of many complexes and dissociative personalities caused by some traumas and which we are not aware of because they are the part of our subconsciousness. It feeds on the negative emotions of our complexes.

 

[Menna]

The predator's mind normally grows with our getting older.

I agree it gets stronger unless you are doing what people on the forum are doing and working towards becoming themselves more and more. THis is why I believe its important to try and re connect to the feelings, sensations thoughts of childhood before the predator starting to gain control. Once this connection is made I feel that the predators mind reverses and gets smaller and or your knowledge and reconnection to your purer past trumps the acquired predator. Once connected to thoughts, feelings, smells, sensations from a time when the predator was non existent or weak I feel that this is an important time in "The Work" and I have no clue where to go from there or if there is anywhere to go but I am seeing glimpses of my old state and it is enjoyable

 

[Altair]

The predator's mind normally grows with our getting older.

I agree it gets stronger unless you are doing what people on the forum are doing and working towards becoming themselves more and more. THis is why I believe its important to try and re connect to the feelings, sensations thoughts of childhood before the predator starting to gain control. Once this connection is made I feel that the predators mind reverses and gets smaller and or your knowledge and reconnection to your purer past trumps the acquired predator. Once connected to thoughts, feelings, smells, sensations from a time when the predator was non existent or weak I feel that this is an important time in "The Work" and I have no clue where to go from there or if there is anywhere to go but I am seeing glimpses of my old state and it is enjoyable

Yes, it's true. I suppose that small children don't have predator's mind (partly because of pure emotional body) or have it in an embryonic state and it grows with our traumas, "education" and many malevolent social influences.

 

[Archaea]

If you cannot get hold of a copy of ISOTM, let us know. Something can be worked out.

OK, but there are few avenues I can try first. :)

Yes, afaik. Though, understanding how the centers work at present, figuring out how to balance the lower centers and not waste fuel is an enormously challenging task.

I agree, and I think the method for balancing the lower centers would be different for each individual due to the differences in why and how different people misuse their lower centers. Having said that, I think there might be consistencies of how to balance the lower centers for everyone.

I guess Castaneda meant something else by stopping of the internal dialog. If the internal dialog is a dialog with the unconscious than it can go only unconsciously and you can't stop it. In my opinion internal dialog (as meant by Castaneda) is simply a chain of automatic thoughts/emotions arising from some other thought or external stimuli, your mind is leaping from one thought to the next association. And as soon as you get aware of these automatic thoughts you are able to intentionally stop them.

The predator's mind normally grows with our getting older. I think it consists of many complexes and dissociative personalities caused by some traumas and which we are not aware of because they are the part of our subconsciousness. It feeds on the negative emotions of our complexes.

Maybe the predator is the misuse of the lower centers, the negative emotions produce a type of fuel which can't be used by the higher emotional center, but can be used as food for something else, e.g. the moon.

So the trick then would be to do what you suggest and become aware of our automatic thoughts and emotional reactions, and then use will to stop them. The C's said that networking and talking out issues is the way to train the machine, so I think the awareness gained from communicating about what we think and feel, and about how we can stop the bad things, could be the first step to balancing the centers.

Another thing that comes up around the place is the idea of doing what it does not like. I'm still not sure what it doesn't like but I think this would be a subset of not doing what it does like. So if it is the predator, and it likes to feed off negative emotions, which could be automatically generated by negative thoughts, then not doing what it likes would be, again, to become aware of thoughts and emotions and stop the bad ones using will.

I also think that networking and communicating could be the proper way to use the lower intellectual center, i.e. thinking about what you want to say and how to say it. I think maybe doing this would preclude the thoughts which the predator puts into our heads. And if misuse in the lower intellectual center can lead to misuse of the lower emotional center, which the predator then feeds on, then this would be a way of not doing what it likes.

A lot of what I said above is just speculation though...

 

[Archaea]

I recently read a book by a guy called Rudolf Steiner. In it he talks about the idea of the three brains. The basic idea as I understood it was that after practicing the exercises of occult training the faculties of thinking, feeling and acting become separated. I took this to mean that the forces which connect the three faculties become, or start to become, disentangled, so that certain thoughts don't immediately imply certain feelings or actions. And likewise with feeling and acting.

After thinking about this I thought maybe some of the not-doing exercises discussed in the Castaneda books might be ways of loosening the knots, so to speak, that tie together the faculties of thinking and acting. Other exercises or practises might be designed to, or have the effect of, disentangling the faculties of acting and feeling or of thinking and feeling.

However, I don't really know enough about the whole concept of the three brains, I ran a search on the forum for "three brain" but nothing came up. Is there anywhere on the forum or the internet where I can read about the idea?

Also, I finally bit the bullet and ordered a whole bunch of books from amazon, including ISOTM and meetings with remarkable gentlemen, so I'll hopefully be reading those sometime soon.

 

[obyvatel]

However, I don't really know enough about the whole concept of the three brains, I ran a search on the forum for "three brain" but nothing came up. Is there anywhere on the forum or the internet where I can read about the idea?

You can look up triune brain . Peter Levine's book "In An Unspoken Voice" has a good section on it.