Domestic violence at my neighbors.

[Cyre2067]

Hey all, little bit of a story to tell so I apologize in advance if this is lengthy. I'll try to keep it succinct. Last week on Friday the 21st, my neighbor texted my roommate and asked us to come over and help him. Apparently his exBF who still lived with him was in a drunk rage and out of control. We got dressed and hopped over the roof just in time to see my neighbor, J trying to exit his apartment through the kitchen window (onto the fire escape, as we were coming down the ladder). We saw S (exBF) hit J with a sloppy punch across the jaw, and opened up the kitchen window. J was on the phone dialing 911 as we walked past him to pursue S.

S was hollering some nonsense about 'This is BS, You're so afraid... etc.' as he was making for the door. My roommate, A and I followed him to the door and locked/chained it behind him. My other roommate, D came up the stairs and engaged S in conversation while we waited for the police. An hour passed with S shouting obscenities in the hallway, tripping over himself outside the front door, and using his keys to try to get back in the apartment. J had packed up S's belongings and repeatedly told him to go sleep it off. At one point D was able to get the keys from S as they were talking downstairs. After that, A and I left. A had also called 9-11 to report the incident.

The next morning S was back in the apartment, apparently he had gotten quite beat up. He has a gash across his forehead and a nasty black eye from what I saw via picture message. J believed his story about getting assaulted on the subway - I don't. Now the story is that S is staying for a few weeks and then moving back to Virginia to live with his Aunt. J is also going out of town Saturday-Saturday leaving this sociopath in his apartment with all of his stuff. He had me out to dinner last night, me and A, and thanked us for helping him when he was in need.

I tried to relay to him the seriousness of the situation, but he wasn't listening. He thinks he's doing the right thing, that S isn't a bad person and that he made some bad choices.... this wasn't the first time S had hit J, it was the second, of which I am aware. It was also the second time he caused a few hundred dollars worth of property damage in a drunken rage. He's clearly suffering a form of battered woman syndrome, I've even caught him doing perception management with his mother and some of our mutual friends, conveniently leaving out a lot of the details - like the domestic violence or alcoholism.

At this point I don't feel like I can 'do anything' so I'm just going to wait and see. J wanted me to normalize relations with S or 'just be cordial to each other' which I absolutely refused. I feel like my stubborn refusal to make any sort of 'forgive and forget' attitude is one of the few things I can do in the situation. I told him flat out I will not enter that apartment as long as he is there unless it's to violently eject S from the premises. In retrospect, perhaps I should have withdrawn any sort of support in case violence erupts again and told J that flat out.

The police also did a followup with J, they eventually did show up that night to take a statement and of course J refused to press charges. An officer came by to have an interview with him to make sure everything was okay a few days later. Thus far, S hasn't had access to alcohol, although I don't know how difficult it would be for him to go out and get drunk and return home, probably not very. If he returns drunk again and we get another call the first thing I'm doing is calling the police. They're already aware of the situation, so if they get called again hopefully he'll get locked up.

I'm just hoping my intuition is correct, that S is really a huge coward, and wouldn't try anything deadly. I warned J of that possibility and I was basically shrugged off and told it's not going to happen because he's not going to get drunk again. That he feels really bad, all this nonsense, which, if it was true, S would have made more real efforts to apologize and claim responsibility.

At the end of the day I expect him to steal a bunch of J's stuff while he's out of town and to just disappear.

Anyway it's been on my mind.

 

[Mrs.Tigersoap]

I tried to relay to him the seriousness of the situation, but he wasn't listening. He thinks he's doing the right thing, that S isn't a bad person and that he made some bad choices.... this wasn't the first time S had hit J, it was the second, of which I am aware. It was also the second time he caused a few hundred dollars worth of property damage in a drunken rage. He's clearly suffering a form of battered woman syndrome, I've even caught him doing perception management with his mother and some of our mutual friends, conveniently leaving out a lot of the details - like the domestic violence or alcoholism.

As you probably know, the problem with the battered woman syndrome is that the woman (well, in your case, the man, J) in question in unable to do anything to her situation. Being put down, beaten up, semi-realizing that you are with a bad person who doesn't love you and thinking that perhaps you don't deserve better: this slowly destroys one's self-esteem. The longer one remains in that situation, the harder it gets to get out. It becomes addictive to both parties. Unless someone intervenes, usually, the victim is not able to take steps. The victim will convince themselves that they are doing something (in this case 'we broke up, he's going to go to his aunt) but as we see, it's just more of the same.

The trouble is, the longer they wait, the higher the risk of a lethal incident. I don't want to frighten you and all cases do not end up like this. But it does happen, believe me. One of my colleagues died that way: she was strangled by her husband.

The police also did a followup with J, they eventually did show up that night to take a statement and of course J refused to press charges. An officer came by to have an interview with him to make sure everything was okay a few days later. Thus far, S hasn't had access to alcohol, although I don't know how difficult it would be for him to go out and get drunk and return home, probably not very. If he returns drunk again and we get another call the first thing I'm doing is calling the police. They're already aware of the situation, so if they get called again hopefully he'll get locked up.

From articles that I've read, the police in the States seem to be very responsive to domestic violence. A restraining order can be issued quickly and in the meantime, an emergency protective order can be issued, it moves fast. Not like in my country where basically, if the police does not witness the facts themselves or you actually have a broken arm 'they cannot do anything' . So involving the system is the way to go. On the positive side, you are just next door so your friend can easily call for help and you can hear what's up really quickly.

At the end of the day I expect him to steal a bunch of J's stuff while he's out of town and to just disappear.

That's where you see that the relationship between J an S is not over, they pretty much continue to dance the same co-dependent dance, enabler and addict. Why would anyone let such a person in their apartment? S stealing J's stuff and disappearing is really the best case scenario. So, let's hope for that.

Keep us posted, Puck and take care.

 

[Arwenn]

Sorry to hear about this conflict Puck. Has this happened before, or is this the first time?

Really, it is a vicious cycle of abuse/violence and then begging for forgiveness and being accepted back. As Mrs. Tigersoap says in her post above, it really is addictive for both the abuser and the abused in a co-dependent relationship. It's really very sad. I guess all you can do is be vigilant and hope that S does indeed leave. Better that he steals stuff rather than hang around & cause a fatal injury next time.

 

[shellycheval]

Hi Puck--sorry to hear of this situation. Please remember that as a witness to violence you are also a victim, albeit lessor, but still witnesses to violence also experience some
shock and trauma due to the fact that humans are empathetic. So as you bear witness to another's struggle, remember to look after yourself with supportive meditations, EE, and talk to others, not only of the facts of the situation, but also your feeling responses. In my experience very little can be done to convince someone to leave an abusive/dysfunctional relationship until they come to the realization themselves.
Take Care,
shellycheval

 

[Nancy2feathers]

Hi Puck. Sorry to hear you are going through this with your friend(?) and neighbor. Like Shelly said, he has to be ready to make a change or even get an order of protection (really, right now is ideal for him to get it). Like it`s been said, he has to take action if he wants things to change. You can talk to him til your blue in the face, but you may be wasting your time if he`s not ready to hear you. You got involved this time. If there`s a next time, I would just let him know now, you will call 911. You don`t want to be in the middle of a heated argument. Take care Puck and stay vigilant.

 

[Hildegarda]

the police in the States seem to be very responsive to domestic violence. A restraining order can be issued quickly and in the meantime, an emergency protective order can be issued, it moves fast.

Puck, an additional challenge for gay couples in is that due to the non-traditional gender arrangement, it is harder to make sense of an abusive situation. This applies both to the participants and to the society.

Thanks to the rise in awareness of domestic violence, people are better at seeing its signs, interpreting them, and reacting to them. But that is aided by stereotypes that women are victims and men are perpetrators. Moreover, there are behavioral patterns in both cases that we identify as 'male" of "female" in a larger context. When both partners are males, it is all much more diffuse and harder to pin down. Can a male have a "battered woman syndrome"? This may be hard to see and understand both for the victim and for those in his surroundings. But I wonder whether he would have more understanding if this was spelled out for him.

 

[luke wilson]

I once heard somewhere that we accept the love we think we deserve. Without knowing more of the case, I would say that S gives J something that J can't get from anywhere else so why J chooses to overlook the aggressiveness of S.

 

[Gwenllian]

I once heard somewhere that we accept the love we think we deserve. Without knowing more of the case, I would say that S gives J something that J can't get from anywhere else so why J chooses to overlook the aggressiveness of S.

It could be a pattern that is very familiar to J stemming from childhood, past lives and relationships, OSIT. That's the reason why I had several relationships with men that didn't love me, were manipulating me and using/abusing me. Looking back I can now see many similarities between my mother and my ex partners.

Take good care, Puck, as others have said: stay vigilant.
Do you know other neighbours or people in the area that have dealt with J and S before? That might give you more clues.

 

[herondancer]

I agree that your neighbour is in denial about his situation. It could very easily happen again. A petty theft and a midnight flit on S's part probably would be the best outcome of a bad situation.

You said J. is still normalising his ex's behaviour. It might help him to see the situation he is living in spelled out in a black and white checklist. There's good resources on the he can find with a simple search. But as N2F said, it won't help till he's ready to hear. In any case, please take care of yourself and stay safe.

 

[Cyre2067]

The trouble is, the longer they wait, the higher the risk of a lethal incident. I don't want to frighten you and all cases do not end up like this. But it does happen, believe me. One of my colleagues died that way: she was strangled by her husband.

My roommate and I emphasized this with J. He assured me that S is not drinking, and won't drink again while he's staying there. He claims he's been rather docile and calm and seriously rethinking his life. I hope it's true.

J also confirmed that S is moving out on the 9th, so we'll have to wait and see what happens. I check in with J everyday, just to touch base, and so far there hasn't been any drama.

S is also younger, 22 if memory serves, and the few conversations I had with him in the past, before his alcoholism became apparent, were somewhat encouraging.

Sorry to hear about this conflict Puck. Has this happened before, or is this the first time?

This is the second time he's been violently drunk, that I'm aware of. It's the third time I've seen him heavily intoxicated however.

Hi Puck--sorry to hear of this situation. Please remember that as a witness to violence you are also a victim, albeit lessor, but still witnesses to violence also experience some
shock and trauma due to the fact that humans are empathetic. So as you bear witness to another's struggle, remember to look after yourself with supportive meditations, EE, and talk to others, not only of the facts of the situation, but also your feeling responses. In my experience very little can be done to convince someone to leave an abusive/dysfunctional relationship until they come to the realization themselves.
Take Care,
shellycheval

Thanks Shelly, I'm keeping that in mind, and one of the reasons I thought to post about it was just so that I could recapitulate and rethink things from a more detached perspective. I have a lot of animosity toward S, and a loyal-friend attachment to J, so my objectivity is in question. When I talk to J I try to not push him, but I do emphasize things that I think he needs to remember.

You got involved this time. If there`s a next time, I would just let him know now, you will call 911. You don`t want to be in the middle of a heated argument. Take care Puck and stay vigilant.

S is 6'2'' and about 140lbs, so he's not that much of a threat. The times I've seem him heavily intoxicated he was very clumsy and uncoordinated, so even if he became violent and had access to a knife or bat or something I'm confident I could disarm him. The problem with J is that he doesn't fight back, which is uncharacteristic of him. The police also took roughly two hours to arrive last time they were called, even though there's a station 5 blocks down ninth avenue, so if called my roommate and I will respond.

When both partners are males, it is all much more diffuse and harder to pin down. Can a male have a "battered woman syndrome"? This may be hard to see and understand both for the victim and for those in his surroundings. But I wonder whether he would have more understanding if this was spelled out for him.

It's probably the same psychological dynamic, the odd thing is that J is a entrepreneur with several businesses. He's very independent, very confident and narcissistic. It's odd to see him in this position, it's outside of what I've come to expect of him. For awhile I thought there was a chance he was mildly psychopathic, but given the emotions he's displayed herein (his attachment to S, and desire to help him through this ordeal) it seems evident that he does have a caring side that is capable of being manipulated.

I once heard somewhere that we accept the love we think we deserve. Without knowing more of the case, I would say that S gives J something that J can't get from anywhere else so why J chooses to overlook the aggressiveness of S.

J is a tough person to spend a lot of time with, given what I just mentioned above. He's often complained of being lonely in his apartment, so I guess S provides him with that level of companionship he's seeking, even if it's completely messed up.

Take good care, Puck, as others have said: stay vigilant.
Do you know other neighbours or people in the area that have dealt with J and S before? That might give you more clues.

Thanks, will do. The people in J's building, he's next-door, are aware that something crazy happened. One of his neighbors walked in that night and saw the condition he was in, another complained about the noise. I think myself and my roommate(s) are the only folks who know the full story. The police also have J's statement on record.

I agree that your neighbour is in denial about his situation. It could very easily happen again. A petty theft and a midnight flit on S's part probably would be the best outcome of a bad situation.

You said J. is still normalising his ex's behaviour. It might help him to see the situation he is living in spelled out in a black and white checklist. There's good resources on the he can find with a simple search. But as N2F said, it won't help till he's ready to hear. In any case, please take care of yourself and stay safe.

Yeah, we'll have to wait and see what happens. I'm going to hold my tongue until J returns from his vacation (leaves tomorrow for a week), and see what happens on the 9th which is when S is supposed to return to Virginia.

Thanks for all the thoughts and words of support.

 

[Laura]

Two comments:

Gurdjieff would regularly get people tipsy so as to see what "came out". It really does tell you something about a person.

I'd be leery of calling the cops for anything these days based on all the reports we've been reading about how they are so trigger happy. It seems that they only make things worse.

 

[shellycheval]

Can a male have a "battered woman syndrome"?

Yes--it is a misnomer based on cultural sexism biases. It should be know as "battered human victim syndrome." IMO

 

[kenlee]

It's probably the same psychological dynamic, the odd thing is that J is a entrepreneur with several businesses. He's very independent, very confident and narcissistic. It's odd to see him in this position, it's outside of what I've come to expect of him. For awhile I thought there was a chance he was mildly psychopathic, but given the emotions he's displayed herein (his attachment to S, and desire to help him through this ordeal) it seems evident that he does have a caring side that is capable of being manipulated.

I think dealing with these kinds of situations is really like applying a higher level martial arts (such as Aikido or Wing Chun for example) on a practical defensive psychological level and understanding the nature of behavior, lines of force, the nature of energy exchanges and so on.

It might help if you let J know the basic dynamics from your perspective regarding his relationship with S which is destructive. One possibility is that it may go something like this: that J is probably put in some kind of hypnotic state or trance because of S's unconscious mechanical tantrums. The end result of this is that S's unconscious actions will feed on and sap the confidence that J has within himself while S puffs up on it and at the same time using that same confidence to control J. When S acts up with sudden mind numbing violence, then from this, J is put into a dissociative psychological state. Then S calms down quickly (probably automatically/unconsciously as if by reflex) and acts really 'nice' which just puts the suggestion into J's mind (while he's still in that suggestible state) that S is a 'nice guy' with good intent and not just an unconscious reaction machine. Then J believes this even more strongly because he's in a much more suggestible state at that particular moment. The more S acts up violently and unexpectedly then the more J actually believes he's a nice guy in control of himself, that is, the more hypnotized he becomes into believing this and around and around it goes, spiraling downwards of course and taking J's confidence and (eventually/probably) his business with it. Maybe let him him know something like that but in a direct no nonsense way. At the very least it'll give him something to think about.

 

[Arwenn]

It's probably the same psychological dynamic, the odd thing is that J is a entrepreneur with several businesses. He's very independent, very confident and narcissistic. It's odd to see him in this position, it's outside of what I've come to expect of him. For awhile I thought there was a chance he was mildly psychopathic, but given the emotions he's displayed herein (his attachment to S, and desire to help him through this ordeal) it seems evident that he does have a caring side that is capable of being manipulated.

I think dealing with these kinds of situations is really like applying a higher level martial arts (such as Aikido or Wing Chun for example) on a practical defensive psychological level and understanding the nature of behavior, lines of force, the nature of energy exchanges and so on.

It might help if you let J know the basic dynamics from your perspective regarding his relationship with S which is destructive. One possibility is that it may go something like this: that J is probably put in some kind of hypnotic state or trance because of S's unconscious mechanical tantrums. The end result of this is that S's unconscious actions will feed on and sap the confidence that J has within himself while S puffs up on it and at the same time using that same confidence to control J. When S acts up with sudden mind numbing violence, then from this, J is put into a dissociative psychological state. Then S calms down quickly (probably automatically/unconsciously as if by reflex) and acts really 'nice' which just puts the suggestion into J's mind (while he's still in that suggestible state) that S is a 'nice guy' with good intent and not just an unconscious reaction machine. Then J believes this even more strongly because he's in a much more suggestible state at that particular moment. The more S acts up violently and unexpectedly then the more J actually believes he's a nice guy in control of himself, that is, the more hypnotized he becomes into believing this and around and around it goes, spiraling downwards of course and taking J's confidence and (eventually/probably) his business with it. Maybe let him him know something like that but in a direct no nonsense way. At the very least it'll give him something to think about.

That's a great way breaking down a possible mechanism in this feeding cycle. The question I have is: what is it that puts J in a hypnotic state because of S's tantrums to begin with? Is it because of projection, a belief that S is something other than what he is?

I ask because I can see that feeding dynamic (without the violence, but tantrums and passive aggressive behaviour for sure) in a similar situation.

 

[theos]

I'd be leery of calling the cops for anything these days based on all the reports we've been reading about how they are so trigger happy. It seems that they only make things worse.

I was thinking the same thing. Cops are more trouble than they are worth and if they're called the situation could get really ugly. Add on to it the fact that they would be called to a situation involving gay men and things could really go south. I know I don't need to say this, but the majority of cops are jerks. If a cop came to your building who was only a jerk and not a psychopathic nutjob, you should consider yourself lucky.

However, if things got super violent -- as in you seriously feared for your friends life -- then calling the cops would be warranted. But this seems like a situation that could be handled by friends and family, if willing.

Last summer a neighbor two doors down had a BBQ that got out of hand and turned into a teenaged girl group brawl. There was a lot of screaming, cursing threats and hairweaves being ripped out. One girl was brandishing a baseball bat but never hit anyone. Adults were watching the situation and eventually, it dispersed. No one called the cops. It could've turned into a disaster if they showed up.