When Immanuel Velikovsky discussed our “Cultural Amnesia” in ‘The Submergence of Terrifying Events in the Racial Memory and Their Later Emergence’, this seems so as one reviews our mythology and peoples old beliefs from all over the world handed down from generation to generation and the uncanny symmetry of what was seen at some point in our historical tomb. Of the earth being pummeled from out there is supported from many different studies and basic observations of our fractured mantles, piled up bones, archeological findings and distributions of geological detritus to name just a few.
As to what happened exactly, don’t know; Venus, Mars, comet strikes or tails or vast focused explosions from out there? Perhaps the theorized sun's twin wandered through causing general astronomical chaos and the earth, being as but a speck of dust, took a big dose of the configurations. What seems clear, whatever happened and likely many times in variation and severity, is that the extreme speed of which this fragile piece of spinning rock mantel with its liquefied core was hit is freighting beyond belief. Whatever happened, with impact speeds in the > 300 miles per second range, it is really unfathomable to realize the effects of particles of matter being slammed together like this on a planetary scale. In conjunction with this aspect, one can be drawn to the incredible width and breath of the comet tails themselves (as we measure distances), stretching millions of miles.
Have read many books suggested here in the forum on these matters, but not all, sometimes just snippets or well summarized writings in Laura’s various works and articles. Being that as it may, decided to go back and read early writings and in this case just finished Ignatius Donnelly’s book ‘Ragnarok’ which purposes a comet strike to the earth in whole or in part with the tail. The book focuses on the “Drift” of debris that litters our planet in various unstratified, unfossilized layers. The book recounts continental mythology and unpacks his version of religious texts as has been done by many others. He discusses in simple words the historization of events, especially when used by directed pens as rewrites to redirect humanity to what can only be called our religious control dogma. As such, the intent here is not to describe what he says or by others, but to touch on a couple of noted items as written back in 1883. Does Donnelly get close, perhaps in many aspects, yet his knowledge of geological results of the “Drift” would have had some limiting factors back in 1883 as the survey was in its known infancy. However, based on the time of his writing and general knowledge of said times, he does a good job stimulating thinking that could only be built on by others further along. Was there human life under the “Drift”? This seems so, remembering that the deposits in some places are between a few feet to 800 feet +/-. Sweeping off the debris of known finds and cross referencing with books such as ‘Forbidden Archeology’, one can only conclude that things of humankind are buried under this very possibly foreign stratum of materials - human history goes back likely a long long time.
Of the science of the time, he makes a decent presentation for comets not being dirty snowballs. Donnelly seems to scratch the surface of electrical and magnetism, both of our atmosphere and comets themselves and here are a few snippets in quotes:
Electrical:
Of the Comet
Magnetic:
Suns Twin?
Surly he was talking about a luminous comet, maybe like Velikovsky’s Venus, but could not help thinking about the Sun’s Twin rolling around into our planetary domain.
The case of Comet Biela’s
This has been well reviewed by Laura also in ‘Comet Biela and Mrs. O'Leary's Cow’ http://www.sott.net/articles/show/148414-Comet-Biela-and-Mrs-O-Leary-s-Cow that offers further examples and photos; would urge this be read. As a recapitulation, here is how it was written in this book (some passages not included):
Discovered 1826 – with an elliptical orbit of 6.75 year cycle. Came close to earth in 1832 – missed by a month – then again cycled around in 1839, and in 1846 it seemed to have split in two or there was now two comets.
This goes on to discuss new observations of it (them) being found again minus their tails.
Impact?
It is interesting to note the author lived and felt the sensations from his location - here is the description of events as noted by the author and as matters of historical facts:
Of course the descriptions of these fires are known, yet in the context of some of the extreme effects and Comet Biela’s changes, one indeed wonders if heavy gases went skipping along into these states and ignited – perhaps at the time also in other isolated parts of the world similar things went un reported?
As to what happened exactly, don’t know; Venus, Mars, comet strikes or tails or vast focused explosions from out there? Perhaps the theorized sun's twin wandered through causing general astronomical chaos and the earth, being as but a speck of dust, took a big dose of the configurations. What seems clear, whatever happened and likely many times in variation and severity, is that the extreme speed of which this fragile piece of spinning rock mantel with its liquefied core was hit is freighting beyond belief. Whatever happened, with impact speeds in the > 300 miles per second range, it is really unfathomable to realize the effects of particles of matter being slammed together like this on a planetary scale. In conjunction with this aspect, one can be drawn to the incredible width and breath of the comet tails themselves (as we measure distances), stretching millions of miles.
Have read many books suggested here in the forum on these matters, but not all, sometimes just snippets or well summarized writings in Laura’s various works and articles. Being that as it may, decided to go back and read early writings and in this case just finished Ignatius Donnelly’s book ‘Ragnarok’ which purposes a comet strike to the earth in whole or in part with the tail. The book focuses on the “Drift” of debris that litters our planet in various unstratified, unfossilized layers. The book recounts continental mythology and unpacks his version of religious texts as has been done by many others. He discusses in simple words the historization of events, especially when used by directed pens as rewrites to redirect humanity to what can only be called our religious control dogma. As such, the intent here is not to describe what he says or by others, but to touch on a couple of noted items as written back in 1883. Does Donnelly get close, perhaps in many aspects, yet his knowledge of geological results of the “Drift” would have had some limiting factors back in 1883 as the survey was in its known infancy. However, based on the time of his writing and general knowledge of said times, he does a good job stimulating thinking that could only be built on by others further along. Was there human life under the “Drift”? This seems so, remembering that the deposits in some places are between a few feet to 800 feet +/-. Sweeping off the debris of known finds and cross referencing with books such as ‘Forbidden Archeology’, one can only conclude that things of humankind are buried under this very possibly foreign stratum of materials - human history goes back likely a long long time.
Of the science of the time, he makes a decent presentation for comets not being dirty snowballs. Donnelly seems to scratch the surface of electrical and magnetism, both of our atmosphere and comets themselves and here are a few snippets in quotes:
Electrical:
It has been shown that, of our forty-five miles of atmosphere, one fifth, or a stratum of nine miles in thickness, is oxygen. A shock, or an electrical or other convulsion, which would even partially disarrange or decompose this combination, and send an increased quantity of oxygen, the heavier gas, to the earth, would wrap everything in flames. Or the same effects might follow from any great change in the constitution of the water of the world. Water is composed of eight parts of oxygen and one part of hydrogen.
But gradually the heat begins to dissipate. This is a signal for tremendous electrical action. Condensation commences.
There is also some allusion to the sandstones scattered about; and we have another reference to the great breaks in the earth’s crust, caused either by the shock of contact with the comet, or the electrical disturbances of the time; and we are told that the trap-rocks, and rocks of vermilion color, boiled up to the surface with great tumult.
They wander, breathing a foul and sickening atmosphere, under the shadow of an awful darkness, a darkness which knows no morning, no stars, no moon; a darkness palpable and visible, lighted only by electrical discharges from the abyss of clouds, with such roars of thunder as we, in this day of harmonious nature, can form no conception of. It is, indeed, ”chaos and ancient night.” All the forces of nature are there, but disorderly, destructive, battling against each other, and multiplied a thousand-fold in power; the winds are cyclones, magnetism is gigantic, electricity is appalling. This signifies that the comet, breathing fire and smoke, so rarefied the air that the clouds disappeared and there followed an age of awful heat. Hercules smites the monster with his lightnings, and electrical phenomena on a vast scale accompany the recondensation of the moisture and the return of the clouds.
The answer is plain. We know the power of the ordinary hurricanes of the earth. ”The largest trees are uprooted, or have their trunks snapped in two; and few if any of the most massive buildings stand uninjured.” If we will remember the excessive heat and the electrical derangements that must have accompanied the Drift Age, we can realize the tremendous winds spoken of in many of the legends.
Of the Comet
We shall see, as we proceed, that the legends of mankind, in describing the comet that struck the earth, represent it as party-colored; it is ”speckled” in one legend; spotted like a tiger in another; sometimes it is a white boar in the heavens; sometimes a blue snake; sometimes it is red with the blood of the millions that are to perish. Doubtless these separate formations, ground out of the granite, from the mica, hornblende, or feldspar, respectively, may, as I have said, under great laws, acted upon by magnetism or electricity, have arranged themselves in separate lines or sheets, in the tail of the comet, and hence we find that the clays of one region are of one color, while those of another are of a different hue. We are told that it burns with a yellow flame when subjected to great heat, and some of the legends, we will see hereafter, speak of the ”yellow hair” of the comet that struck the earth. And we are further told that, ”when it, carbureted hydrogen, is mixed in due proportion with oxygen or atmospheric air, a compound is produced which explodes with the electric spark or the approach of flame.” Another form of carbureted hydrogen, olefiant gas, is deadly to life, burns with a white light, and when mixed with three or four volumes of oxygen, or ten or twelve of air, it explodes with terrific violence.
Magnetic:
The particles ground out of feldspar are finer than those derived from mica and hornblende, and we can readily understand how the great forces of gravity, acting upon the dust of the comet’s tail, might separate one from the other; or how magnetic waves passing through the comet might arrange all the particles containing iron by themselves, and thus produce that marvelous separation of the constituents of the granite which we have found to exist in the Drift clays. If the destroyed world possessed no sedimentary rocks, then the entire material of the comet would consist of granitic stones and dust such as constitutes clays.
We shall see, as we proceed, that the legends of mankind, in describing the comet that struck the earth, represent it as party-colored; it is ”speckled” in one legend; spotted like a tiger in another; sometimes it is a white boar in the heavens; sometimes a blue snake; sometimes it is red with the blood of the millions that are to perish. Doubtless these separate formations, ground out of the granite, from the mica, hornblende, or feldspar, respectively, may, as I have said, under great laws, acted upon by magnetism or electricity, have arranged themselves in separate lines or sheets, in the tail of the comet, and hence we find that the clays of one region are of one color, while those of another are of a different hue.
Again, we shall see that the legends represent the monster as ”winding,” undulating, writhing, twisting, fold over fold, precisely as the telescopes show us the comets do to-day.
The very fact that these waves of motion run through the tail of the comet, and that it is capable of expanding and contracting on an immense scale, is conclusive proof that it is composed of small, adjustable particles. The writer from whom I have already quoted, speaking of the extraordinary comet of 1843, says:
”As the comet moves past the great luminary, it sweeps round its tail as a sword may be conceived to be held out at arm’s-length, and then waved round the head, from one side to the opposite. But a sword with a blade one hundred and fifty millions of miles long must be a somewhat awkward weapon to brandish round after this fashion. Its point would have to sweep through a curve stretching out more than six hundred millions of miles; and, even with an allowance of two hours for the accomplishment of the movement, the flash of the weapon would be of such terrific velocity that it is not an easy task to conceive how any blade of connected material substance could bear the strain of the stroke. Even with a blade that possessed the coherence and tenacity of iron or steel, the case would be one that it would be difficult for molecular cohesion to deal with. But that difficulty is almost infinitely increased when it is a substance of much lower cohesive tenacity than either iron or steel that has to be subjected to the strain.
Suns Twin?
Can it be that there wanders through immeasurable space, upon an orbit of such size that millions of years are required to complete it, some monstrous luminary, so vast that when it returns to us it fills a large part of the orbit which the earth describes around the sun, and showers down upon us deluges of d´ebris , while it fills the world with flame? And are these recurring strata of stones and clay and bowlders, written upon these widely separated pages of the geologic volume, the record of its oft and regularly recurring visitations?
Surly he was talking about a luminous comet, maybe like Velikovsky’s Venus, but could not help thinking about the Sun’s Twin rolling around into our planetary domain.
The case of Comet Biela’s
This has been well reviewed by Laura also in ‘Comet Biela and Mrs. O'Leary's Cow’ http://www.sott.net/articles/show/148414-Comet-Biela-and-Mrs-O-Leary-s-Cow that offers further examples and photos; would urge this be read. As a recapitulation, here is how it was written in this book (some passages not included):
Discovered 1826 – with an elliptical orbit of 6.75 year cycle. Came close to earth in 1832 – missed by a month – then again cycled around in 1839, and in 1846 it seemed to have split in two or there was now two comets.
And it returned in like fashion in 1839 and 1846. But here a surprising thing occurred. Its proximity to the earth had split it in two ; each half had a head and tail of its own; each had set up a separate government for itself; and they were whirling through space, side by side, like a couple of race-horses, about sixteen thousand miles apart, or about twice as wide apart as the diameter of the earth.
“In 1852, 1859, and 1866, the comet SHOULD have returned, but it did not. It was lost. It was dissipated. Its material was banging around the earth in fragments somewhere. ” I quote from a writer in a recent issue of the ”Edinburgh Review”:
“The puzzled astronomers were left in a state of tantalizing uncertainty as to what had become of it. At the beginning of the year 1866 this feeling of bewilderment gained expression in the Annual Report of the Council of the Royal Astronomical Society. The matter continued, nevertheless, in the same state of provoking uncertainty for another six years. The third period of the perihelion passage had then passed, and nothing had been seen of the missing luminary. But on the night of November 27, 1872, night-watchers were startled by a sudden and a very magnificent display of falling stars or meteors, of which there had been no previous forecast, and Professor Klinkerflues, of Berlin, having carefully noted the common radiant point in space from which this star-shower was discharged into the earth’s atmosphere, with the intuition of ready genius jumped at once to the startling inference that here at last were traces of the missing luminary….
This goes on to discuss new observations of it (them) being found again minus their tails.
Now, we have seen that Biela’s comets lost their tails. What became of them? There is no evidence to show whether they lost them in 1852, 1859, 1866, or 1872. The probabilities are that the demoralization took place before 1852, as otherwise the comets would have been seen, tails and all, in that and subsequent years. It is true that the earth came near enough in 1872 to attract some of the wandering gravel-stones toward itself, and that they fell, blazing and consuming themselves with the friction of our atmosphere, and reached the surface of our planet, if at all, as cosmic dust. But where were the rest of the assets of these bankrupt comets? They were probably scattered around in space, disjecta membra , floating hither and thither, in one place a stream of stones, in another a volume of gas; while the two heads had fled away, like the fugitive presidents of a couple of broken banks, to the Canadian refuge of ” Theta Centauri ”–shorn of their splendors and reduced to first principles.
Impact?
Did anything out of the usual order occur on the face of the earth about this time?
It is interesting to note the author lived and felt the sensations from his location - here is the description of events as noted by the author and as matters of historical facts:
Yes. In the year 1871, on Sunday, the 8th of October, at half past nine o’clock in the evening, events occurred which attracted the attention of the whole world, which caused the death of hundreds of human beings, and the destruction of millions of property, and which involved three different States of the Union in the wildest alarm and terror.
The summer of 1871 had been excessively dry; the moisture seemed to be evaporated out of the air; and on the Sunday above named the atmospheric conditions all through the Northwest were of the most peculiar character. The writer was living at the time in Minnesota, hundreds of miles from the scene of the disasters, and he can never forget the condition of things. There was a parched, combustible, inflammable, furnace-like feeling in the air, that was really alarming. It felt as if there were needed but a match, a spark, to cause a world-wide explosion. It was weird and unnatural. I have never seen nor felt anything like it before or since. Those who experienced it will bear me out in these statements.
At that hour, half past nine o’clock in the evening, at apparently the same moment, at points hundreds of miles apart, in three different States, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Illinois, fires of the most peculiar and devastating kind broke out, so far as we know, by spontaneous combustion.
In Wisconsin, on its eastern borders, in a heavily timbered country, near Lake Michigan, a region embracing four hundred square miles , extending north from Brown County, and containing Peshtigo, Manistee, Holland, and numerous villages on the shores of Green Bay, was swept bare by an absolute whirlwind of flame. There were seven hundred and fifty people killed outright , besides great numbers of the wounded, maimed, and burned, who died afterward. More than three million dollars’ worth of property was destroyed.
It was no ordinary fire. I quote:
At sundown there was a lull in the wind and comparative stillness. For two hours there were no signs of danger; but at a few minutes after nine o’clock, and by a singular coincidence, precisely the time at which the Chicago fire commenced[, the people of the village heard a terrible roar. It was that of a tornado, crushing through the forests. Instantly the heavens were illuminated with a terrible glare . The sky , which had been so dark a moment before, burst into clouds of flame . A spectator of the terrible scene says the fire did not come upon them gradually from burning trees and other objects to the windward, but the first notice they had of it was a whirlwind of flame in great clouds from above the tops of the trees , which fell upon and entirely enveloped everything. The poor people inhaled it, or the intensely hot air, and fell down dead. This is verified by the appearance of many of the corpses. They were found dead in the roads and open spaces, where there were no visible marks of fire near by, with not a trace of burning upon their bodies or clothing. At the Sugar Bush, which is an extended clearing, in some places four miles in width, corpses were found in the open road, between fences only slightly burned. No mark of fire was upon them; they lay there as if asleep . This phenomenon seems to explain the fact that so many were killed in compact masses. They seemed to have huddled together, in what were evidently regarded at the moment as the safest places, far away from buildings, trees, or other inflammable material, and there to have died together.
Another spectator says:
”Much has been said of the intense heat of the fires which destroyed Peshtigo, Menekaune, Williamsonville, etc., but all that has been said can give the stranger but a faint conception of the reality. The heat has been compared to that engendered by a flame concentrated on an object by a blow-pipe; but even that would not account for some of the phenomena. For instance, we have in our possession a copper cent taken from the pocket of a dead man in the Peshtigo Sugar Bush, which will illustrate our point. This cent has been partially fused , but still retains its round form, and the inscription upon it is legible.
Others, in the same pocket, were partially melted, and yet the clothing and the body of the man were not even singed . We do not know in what way to account for this, unless, as is asserted by some, the tornado and fire were accompanied by electrical phenomena.”
”It is the universal testimony that the prevailing idea among the people was, that the last day had come. Accustomed as they were to fire, nothing like this had ever been known. They could give no other interpretation to this ominous roar, this bursting of the sky with fame, and this dropping down of fire out of the very heavens, consuming instantly everything it touched.
”No two give a like description of the great tornado as it smote and devoured the village. It seemed as if ’the fiery fiends of hell had been loosened,’ says one. ’It came in great sheeted flames from heaven,’ says another. ’There was a pitiless rain of fire and SAND.’ ’The atmosphere was all afire.’Some speak of ’great balls of fire unrolling and shooting forth, in streams .’ The fire leaped over roofs and trees, and ignited whole streets at once. No one could stand before the blast. It was a race with death, above, behind, and before them.”
A civil engineer, doing business in Peshtigo, says
The heat increased so rapidly, as things got well afire, that, when about four hundred feet from the bridge and the nearest building , I was obliged to lie down behind a log that was aground in about two feet of water, and by going under water now and then, and holding my head close to the water behind the log, I managed to breathe. There were a dozen others behind the same log. If I had succeeded in crossing the river and gone among the buildings on the other side, probably I should have been lost, as many were.”
James B. Clark, of Detroit, who was at Uniontown, Wisconsin, writes:
”The fire suddenly made a rush, like the flash of a train of gunpowder, and swept in the shape of a crescent around the settlement. It is almost impossible to conceive the frightful rapidity of the advance of the flames . The rushing fire seemed to eat up and annihilate the trees.”
They saw a black mass coming toward them from the wall of flame:
”It was a stampede of cattle and horses thundering toward us, bellowing moaning, and neighing as they galloped on; rushing with fearful speed, their eyeballs dilated and glaring with terror, and every motion betokening delirium of fright. Some had been badly burned, and must have plunged through a long space of flame in the desperate effort to escape. Following considerably behind came a solitary horse, panting and snorting and nearly exhausted. He was saddled and bridled, and, as we first thought, had a bag lashed to his back. As he came up we were startled at the sight of a young lad lying fallen over the animal’s neck, the bridle wound around his hands, and the mane being clinched by the fingers. Little effort was needed to stop the jaded horse, and at once release the helpless boy. He was taken into the house, and all that we could do was done; but he had inhaled the smoke, and was seemingly dying. Some time elapsed and he revived enough to speak. He told his name–Patrick Byrnes–and said: ’Father and mother and the children got into the wagon. I don’t know what became of them. Everything is burned up. I am dying. Oh! is hell any worse than this?’”
When we leave Wisconsin and pass about two hundred and fifty miles eastward, over Lake Michigan and across the whole width of the State of Michigan, we find much the same condition of things, but not so terrible in the loss of human life. Fully fifteen thousand people were rendered homeless by the fires ; and their food, clothing, crops, horses, and cattle were destroyed. Of these five to six thousand were burned out the same night that the fires broke out in Chicago and Wisconsin. The total destruction of property exceeded one million dollars; not only villages and cities, but whole townships, were swept bare.
But it is to Chicago we must turn for the most extraordinary results of this atmospheric disturbance. It is needless to tell the story in detail. The world knows it by heart:
Blackened and bleeding, helpless, panting, prone, On the charred fragments of her shattered throne, Lies she who stood but yesterday alone.”
I have only space to refer to one or two points. The fire was spontaneous. The story of Mrs. O’Leary’s cow having started the conflagration by kicking over a lantern was proved to be false. It was the access of gas from the tail of Biela’s comet that burned up Chicago!
The fire-marshal testified:
”I felt it in my bones that we were going to have a burn.”
He says, speaking of O’Leary’s barn:
”We got the fire under control, and it would not have gone a foot farther; but the next thing I knew they came and told me that St. Paul’s church, about two squares north, was on fire.”
They checked the church-fire, but– ”The next thing I knew the fire was in Bateham’s planing-mill.”
A writer in the New York ”Evening Post” says he saw in Chicago ”buildings far beyond the line of fire, and in no contact with it, burst into flames from the interior .”
It must not be forgotten that the fall of 1871 was marked by extraordinary conflagrations in regions widely separated. On the 8th. of October, the same day the Wisconsin, Michigan, and Chicago fires broke out, the States of Iowa, Minnesota, Indiana, and Illinois were severely devastated by prairie-fires; while terrible fires raged on the Alleghanies, the Sierras of the Pacific coast, and the Rocky Mountains, and in the region of the Red River of the North. ”The Annual Record of Science and Industry” for 1876, page 84, says:
”For weeks before and after the great fire in Chicago in 1872, great areas of forest and prairie-land, both in the United States and the British Provinces, were on fire.” The flames that consumed a great part of Chicago were of an unusual character and produced extraordinary effects. They absolutely melted the hardest building-stone, which had previously been considered fire-proof. Iron, glass, granite, were fused and run together into grotesque conglomerates, as if they had been put through a blast-furnace. No kind of material could stand its breath for a moment.
I quote again from Sheahan & Upton’s Work:
”The huge stone and brick structures melted before the fierceness of the flames as a snow-flake melts and disappears in water, and almost as quickly. Six-story buildings would take fire and disappear for ever from sight in five minutes by the watch . . . . The fire also doubled on its track at the great Union Depot and burned half a mile southward in the very teeth of the gale –a gale which blew a perfect tornado, and in which no vessel could have lived on the lake.
. . . Strange, fantastic fires of blue, red, and green played along the cornices of buildings .
Hon. William B. Ogden wrote at the time:
”The fire was accompanied by the fiercest tornado of wind ever known to blow here.” ”The most striking peculiarity of the fire was its intense heat. Nothing exposed to it escaped. Amid the hundreds of acres left bare there is not to be found a piece of wood of any description, and, unlike most fires, it left nothing half burned . . . . The fire swept the streets of all the ordinary dust and rubbish, consuming it instantly.”
The Athens marble burned like coal!
”The intensity of the heat may be judged, and the thorough combustion of everything wooden may be understood, when we state that in the yard of one of the large agricultural-implement factories was stacked some hundreds of tons of pig-iron. This iron was two hundred feet from any building. To the south of it was the river, one hundred and fifty feet wide. No large building but the factory was in the immediate vicinity of the fire. Yet, so great was the heat, that this pile of iron melted and run, and is now in one large and nearly solid mass .
The amount of property destroyed was estimated by Mayor Medill at one hundred and fifty million dollars; and the number of people rendered houseless, at one hundred and twenty-five thousand. Several hundred lives were lost. All this brings before our eyes vividly the condition of things when the comet struck the earth; when conflagrations spread over wide areas; when human beings were consumed by the million; when their works were obliterated, and the remnants of the multitude fled before the rushing flames, filled with unutterable consternation;
Who shall say how often the characteristics of our atmosphere have been affected by accessions from extraterrestrial sources, resulting in conflagrations or pestilences, in failures of crops, and in famines? Who shall say how far great revolutions and wars and other perturbations of humanity have been due to similar modifications?
There is a world of philosophy in that curious story, ”Dr. Ox’s Hobby,” wherein we are told how he changed the mental traits of a village of Hollanders by increasing the amount of oxygen in the air
they breathed.
Of course the descriptions of these fires are known, yet in the context of some of the extreme effects and Comet Biela’s changes, one indeed wonders if heavy gases went skipping along into these states and ignited – perhaps at the time also in other isolated parts of the world similar things went un reported?
