Dream Interpretation - Inner Work by Robert Johnson

[Sol Logos]

Thanks guys for the links. A fair bit of reading to do. For me there's a relinquishment of responsibility in the idea of people having predetermined conditions, of course there's an instant abolishment of free will for those which is another point. Anyway I don't mean necessarily that we have a responsibility to fix psychopaths, I mean that we have a responsibility for what we collectively create in the world, no matter how far removed we feel we are from it. It's my opinion that Jung at the end of his life was seeing something like that with his ideas on syncronicity. So, like everything or person in our personal dream landscape represents corresponding aspects in ourselves, if you consider that the world is symbolic of the condition of all of us (and the generations that have past internalised within us) then we in some ways are responsible for the creation of the psychopathic condition that exists in others. I do agree though that it's not only naive but detrimental to not acknowlege the existence of evil but I feel that by not seeing that each and everyone of us has a part in it's creation, actually is more than anything else, the way it proliferates.

 

[obyvatel]

For me there's a relinquishment of responsibility in the idea of people having predetermined conditions, of course there's an instant abolishment of free will for those which is another point.

A predator in nature feeds on prey. It is up to the prey to learn about the predator and find out ways to avoid getting eaten. The prey acts in favor of its destiny - not against the predator. If the prey gets smart enough so that it no longer remains prey and thus frustrates the predator, there is no freewill violations on either side as far as I can see.

Anyway I don't mean necessarily that we have a responsibility to fix psychopaths, I mean that we have a responsibility for what we collectively create in the world, no matter how far removed we feel we are from it.

Predators in nature cannot be "fixed" in any real sense of the term. They are as much a part of reality as the prey. Taking collective responsibility for the world could mean acquiring objective knowledge about reality which includes both predators and non-predators.

It's my opinion that Jung at the end of his life was seeing something like that with his ideas on syncronicity. So, like everything or person in our personal dream landscape represents corresponding aspects in ourselves, if you consider that the world is symbolic of the condition of all of us (and the generations that have past internalised within us) then we in some ways are responsible for the creation of the psychopathic condition that exists in others.

Would you say that the deer is responsible for creating the tiger? If a hypothetical deer was able to introspect and make itself and its environment clean and good enough, would the tiger not feed on it anymore and be friends with it?

I do agree though that it's not only naive but detrimental to not acknowlege the existence of evil but I feel that by not seeing that each and everyone of us has a part in it's creation, actually is more than anything else, the way it proliferates.

We do have a role to play in the sense of acknowledging reality and acting in accordance with it. This could mean developing means of detecting psychopathy and taking steps to see that those who have this condition do not get into positions where they can cause harm to large groups of people. In our present society, someone who is lacking eyesight is not going to be allowed to fly an airplane. It is simply taken as a natural and logical thing to do - not as a violation of freewill of the handicapped person should he desire the position of an airline pilot.

 

[SeekinTruth]

I totally agree with obyvatel's comments. There's some truth in what you say, alkhemst. But there's a danger in mixing things up as you have. Because of the long process of ponerization and the huge influence of pathological types (including genetic psychopaths) many or most, if not all, people have psychopathic traits and values. But this is instilled in them systematically by the psychopathic systems created by the psychopaths.

Psychopaths, on the other hand, have ONLY psychopathic traits and nothing else. They can't be "fixed." That's firmly established. It would help you if you read the material on psychopathy to get a deeper understanding of the problem.

 

[Sol Logos]

rue I can't say my opinion is due to lack of knowledge or not till I understand fully the basis of this. I suppose that if we are not conclusively material beings then we can't base things solely on material terms (ie genetics). So what we determine as causes may ultimately be effects and if that's the case until we can determine the truth about spiritual laws in the same manner as we investigate material things (through a scientific process), then we may have no certainty about whether or not we can fix psychopaths or why they even exist. Just a theory to ponder I guess.

By freewill I meant the psychopath destiny is determined whereas others can still choose to be a psychopath in terms if behavior or not. So a psychopath has less free will in that sense.

 

[anart]

rue I can't say my opinion is due to lack of knowledge or not till I understand fully the basis of this. I suppose that if we are not conclusively material beings then we can't base things solely on material terms (ie genetics). So what we determine as causes may ultimately be effects and if that's the case until we can determine the truth about spiritual laws in the same manner as we investigate material things (through a scientific process), then we may have no certainty about whether or not we can fix psychopaths or why they even exist. Just a theory to ponder I guess.

By freewill I meant the psychopath destiny is determined whereas others can still choose to be a psychopath in terms if behavior or not. So a psychopath has less free will in that sense.

alkhemst, it would help if you would get up to speed on the material covering psychopathy. Search the sott.net page for articles (there are many), read Political Ponerology, read Hare's work. Then you can discuss this without having to rebuild the wheel, which will be beneficial to both you and the forum.

 

[Sol Logos]

No worries, should take me a while though to get through the books. However I did read through the article on Political Ponerology on Sott.net linked above as well as other material previously (been reading close to daily the articles on Sott.net for over a year now). But I do understand that point, so that's what I meant by "I can't say my opinion is due to lack of knowledge or not till I understand fully the basis of this". I freely admit I'm uniformed on this topic, so part of the reason I've written the above is to help my own understanding via those that are more informed.

A general observation from my side is this - when I make observations or questions which from my perspective are grey areas, a number of times rather than addressing those things, I notice forum members prefer to send me to a bunch of other material that in all honesty in my daily life I won't have time to read. So it leaves me with what I see as 2 options:

1) Only question things after I've read the bulk of material suggested on each topic (which as I said because of time and resource limitations won't happen for a very long time)
2) Don't questions things.

In reality because point 1 is not achievable for me at least in my current circumstances, I'm left with point 2. I’m not saying this is a flaw on this forum necessarily as it’s certainly a waste of time to go over and over things already said and resolved. More so, I’m describing what is a conundrum for me interacting here and perhaps others that are new here may have a similar experience. Perhaps it’s worth noting.

 

[anart]

A general observation from my side is this - when I make observations or questions which from my perspective are grey areas, a number of times rather than addressing those things, I notice forum members prefer to send me to a bunch of other material

There is a very important reason for that. If information is handed to you on a platter, you don't learn. If you have to struggle for it, do your own reading and come to your own understanding, then that knowledge is yours. It really can't be any other way.

 

[mkrnhr]

Hello alkhemst,

It is normal to be impatient. However, certain subjects are not easy to discuss in a few sentences without some background. It does apply to every field of knowledge.

Acquiring knowledge in a deep sense is also analogue to an alchemical transmutation, it requires time, and more importantly, a lot of work. Part of the process is to take time to read and analyse, and then to network.

 

[Sol Logos]

Thanks, I can't say that doesn't make sense.

 

[987baz]

thanks for the book recommendation (Inner Work: Using Dreams and Active Imagination for Personal Growth)...I just started reading it :) seems very interesting