Earth's population soon to reach 7 billion

Psalehesost said:
Bud said:
What is the "issue of overpopulation"? Can you imagine what 7 billion people could do to clean up the environment, create abundant health and happiness for everyone and DCM knows what else, if there were no human parasites sucking the life blood out of us all?

I think "overpopulation" is a red herring and that the real problem has always been repressive/suppressive "governances". But I could be wrong.

Have you read The Vegetarian Myth? As explained there, the population would be much, much lower were it not for agriculture - a short-term solution that, for some time, can sustain a much greater population at the cost of depleting the top-soil able to sustain the production of produce. Petroleum-based fertilizers are the only reason the global food supply is still able to keep up, and it has been that way for some time - without it, the bulk of the world's population would inevitably have to starve to death.

Agriculture and centralized, hierarchical power structures also go hand in hand - probably both will remain until both simultaneously meet their end.

I think what you say is right and also what bud says is right. Right now, in this time we are living in, population is high because of agriculture. However, it doesn't mean that the world can not sustain a 7 billion strong population without agriculture... With unlimited possibilities at the disposal of the Universe, agriculture and hunter gathering are not the only options available! As far as I am aware a whole civilisation can not be sustained by hunter gathering...

I think over-population is a red-herring for political gain! At least that is how it is used today. Same with global warming, an argument unleashed against developing countries.. Either way, population and agriculture will continue until something happens to either disrupt or reset both.

Finduilas495 said:
As to the number of people the planet can support, I think more data is required regarding how we exactly interact with the earth and how balance is achieved.

I agree with this wholeheartedly!
 
Quote from: williamsj on Yesterday at 00:49:14
In simple terms if everyone used what is required to support their survival rather than what they "want" I would suggest that figures of 10 -12 billion would be nearer the mark.

As long as we have people who want gas gussling cars and insist on living in the XXX riviera then we have a problem.

In ones humble opinion the earths resources require careful management, but the earth has very few good resource managers - After all it is an STS world

So what is needed is getting rid of those 1% - the rich elite?

Hmm no we are not supposed to "get rid" of anyone, that is not our/my place, my firm belief is "Live and Let Live".

However the fact remains that what a certain percentage of the population is doing is detrimental to the situation, but what would the solution be?

The problem with a materialistic world is that those with the most are firmly convinced that they have the right to consume the most, and as I said "if everyone used what is required to support their survival rather than what they 'want'" the issue may actually subside.

BTW I have no clue how this could be achieved it is as Ark would say a theoretical hypothesis.
 
Psalehesost said:
Have you read The Vegetarian Myth? As explained there, the population would be much, much lower were it not for agriculture - a short-term solution that, for some time, can sustain a much greater population at the cost of depleting the top-soil able to sustain the production of produce. Petroleum-based fertilizers are the only reason the global food supply is still able to keep up, and it has been that way for some time - without it, the bulk of the world's population would inevitably have to starve to death.

I agree.

luke wilson said:
I think over-population is a red-herring for political gain! At least that is how it is used today. Same with global warming...

luke is on to me because my original question was intended to find out if liffy was being influenced by "political correctness" with regard to the subject of Earth's population.


To address your question, Psalehesost, I have yet to read the book but I have been aware of the veggy-grain myth in some terms for some time now. Around about the time I discovered Thom Hartmann's Hunter/Farmer model is when I became more active in the research. I had noticed he didn't develop the idea beyond an explanation of behavior characteristics to show the cognitive/awareness parallels that were easy enough to see if you think in terms of boundaries, i.e., "boundary of the farm" vs "boundary (?) of the perceivable environment which includes the distant stars".

Before that exposure, I had even formulated an explanation of the "garden of eden/fall of man" story from the perspective of the mythological consciousness. Wanna hear it? Goes like this:

Having disobeyed someone's command (going against something one knows better about) and tasted of the fruit (started planting and harvesting) of the knowledge of good (developed a more sophisticated language which created an expanded mind-space for communicating the coordination of farming activities) and evil (which included Russell Barkley's famous "covert mind-space" as executive function of the frontal lobes - the place where evil starts), man was thrown out of paradise (lost his sensory connection with, and wider cognizance of, the wider and deeper universe of nature and the universe around him, not to mention his empathy connection with others) so as to start the story of the sordid history of the origins of pathology in man beginning, perhaps, with murder and involving Cain and Abel.

But those are just my thoughts.

With respect to the issue of the planet's population, the current world context around the people referred to include the hegemony of political jurisdictions, state/country borders and control of food, goods and people movement. This context also includes distinct boundaries of politically-backed corporate interests that feed off the status quo.

This framework can collapse though, with just the right input into the collective mind via non-linear dynamics. I've a feeling it's starting with the "fed-up" dynamics and will end with the exposure of the ridiculous illusion of "government being in beneficial control of anything". Government is an illusion supported by media and people may soon see through the hoax. I certainly plan to not be in the way when it happens. :)

Finally, I see nothing special about 7 or 7 billion - at least as concerns what is on this thread so far. I'd say there's been a lot of weird things connected with every number since we learned how to count. Then we started counting for counting's sake (playing with numbers themselves instead of what is being represented). What's that all about? :)
 
Bud said:
luke is on to me because my original question was intended to find out if liffy was being influenced by "political correctness" with regard to the subject of Earth's population.

It would be appreciated if you would simply ask such questions honestly and openly and not design your comments to try to discover certain things about others' mindsets. If your concern was with whether or not liffy was influenced by political correctness, then you could have just asked him that.
 
anart said:
It would be appreciated if you would simply ask such questions honestly and openly ...

I thought I did.

anart said:
If your concern was with whether or not liffy was influenced by political correctness, then you could have just asked him that.

My actual question was much less ambiguous than the phrase political correctness which may not even have been relevant if the answer was no. So when I asked the question (What is the "issue of overpopulation"?) that was the actual honest and open question to which I was seeking an answer.

Sorry if I was coming across any other way.
 
Bud said:
anart said:
It would be appreciated if you would simply ask such questions honestly and openly ...

I thought I did.

anart said:
If your concern was with whether or not liffy was influenced by political correctness, then you could have just asked him that.

My actual question was much less ambiguous than the phrase political correctness which may not even have been relevant if the answer was no. So when I asked the question (What is the "issue of overpopulation"?) that was the actual honest and open question to which I was seeking an answer.

Sorry if I was coming across any other way.

It is a very subtle point, I realize, but when you said, "luke is on to me" that implies that you were being disingenuous in some way - almost as if you were attempting to manipulate liffy into revealing something that you thought he/she was hiding. Hopefully that's not what you were doing, since this isn't really necessary, nor very productive. Hopefully that explains why I commented on it at all.
 
I remember in my younger days (30 years ago) teachers were learning us that general population was around 4,5 billion - an that was impressive. Is it really possible that so many people were born in that period. And how many died?

I think there maybe a strategy is being conducted on to convict us that our planet is overpopulated with 7 billion people so people start accepting that lie(vectoring).

Another issue could be 2012. Everybody is expecting something like the end of the world because all media are speaking about that - this is pressure from another direction (vectoring?)

Economic doom is obvious. Planned? We have been learned that World Wars are following major economic crisis (vectoring?!). So here we are bombarded with lot of (false?) premises that are forcing us to start believing that something awful will happen to human kind next year ...

Seems to me that STS are raising our fear (and other bad emotions) level because they need even more more energy to support their survival or whatever.

What will happen if we all refuse to think what PTB wants to and start thinking totally opposite - maintaining positive attitude no matter what lies are emitted towards us?
 
anart said:
Bud said:
anart said:
It would be appreciated if you would simply ask such questions honestly and openly ...

I thought I did.

anart said:
If your concern was with whether or not liffy was influenced by political correctness, then you could have just asked him that.

My actual question was much less ambiguous than the phrase political correctness which may not even have been relevant if the answer was no. So when I asked the question (What is the "issue of overpopulation"?) that was the actual honest and open question to which I was seeking an answer.

Sorry if I was coming across any other way.

It is a very subtle point, I realize, but when you said, "luke is on to me" that implies that you were being disingenuous in some way - almost as if you were attempting to manipulate liffy into revealing something that you thought he/she was hiding. Hopefully that's not what you were doing, since this isn't really necessary, nor very productive. Hopefully that explains why I commented on it at all.

Oh, I see now. Thanks for clarifying. That implication was definitely not intended. I think I would first be guilty of stupidity or ignorant wording before deliberate disingenouity because being "on to me" is just my favorite way of suggesting someone has picked up on something in my train of thought. :)


------------------------------------
Edit: Forgot to add the reason.
 
Population forecasting is a statistical game, and as with any other form of statistics it is very important to keep in mind what sort of errors one is playing with(and the beauty of it is that 'error' is imaginary since no one actually knows what it is to begin with, it is an estimate aswell.....LOL) - if I remember correctly from those classes, fwiw. Anyways, I have looked into the accuracy of this figures and it turns out, they don't actually talk much about them. It is left to others to find out!

Have a look at this _http://www.ssb.no/histstat/doc/doc_199704.pdf. Basically it says most forecasters don't give expected accuracy since they don't know this themselves. Infact when it comes to developing countries it becomes more of guess-work as in 'less accurate'.

From the Preface

Users of official statistics should be informed about the quality of the data. How reliable are the
figures? To what extent do they reflect reality? Population forecasts and projections produced by
statistical agencies can also be considered as official statistics, and regarding quality the same
principle should hold for forecast results as for observed data. But very little is known about the
quality of forecasts and projections, in particular when it concerns developing countries.
The aim of this report is to analyse the accuracy of the United Nation's world population projections
since 1950. By comparing projected numbers with corresponding real figures for the period 1950-
1990 I assess the quality of the projections. This way I hope to contribute to providing insight into the
uncertainty around the results of current UN projections.
Preliminary findings of this project have been presented at the IIASA Task Force Seminar
"Rethinking International Population Projections", Laxenburg, 6-8 June 1996. Research assistance by
Svenn-Erik Mamelund and Bjorn Moller, the help by Liv Hansen in producing the figures, and
comments by seminar participants and by Helge Brunborg are gratefully acknowledged. The project
has been supported by grant no. 111939/730 of the Norwegian Research Council (NFR), as part of
their recent initiative to stimulate demographic research and education.

From the introduction

An important aspect of the usefulness of population projections and forecasts is their accuracy.
Although other aspects, such as the information content (e.g. has only total population been projected,
or also age groups? which regional level?) and the usefulness for policy purposes (e.g. does the
projected trend imply immediate policy measures?) are relevant as well, the degree to which the
forecast may be expected to reflect real developments in the future is a key factor in assessing its
quality.

For industrialized countries we know some common characteristics concerning the accuracy of
historical forecasts and projections, see Keilman (forthcoming) for an overview. Ex-post comparisons
between projected and observed trends in population variables have revealed that the forecast
accuracy of fertility is better than that of mortality - behaviourally determined variables are difficult to
forecast. Yet large errors have been found for both the young and the old after a forecast period of 15
years (errors up to +30 per cent for the age group 0-4, and -15 per cent or lower for women aged 85+
are not uncommon). This suggests that those old forecasts supplied useful information perhaps up to
10-15 years ahead, but certainly not longer. Finally, detailed studies for a few countries have found
only a weak association between improvements in forecast accuracy and the introduction of more
sophisticated forecast methods.

These findings relate to the accuracy of forecasts produced for industrialized countries. Much less is
known about the reliability of population forecasts for developing countries. Inoue & Yu (1979)
investigated the errors in total population size of six rounds of United Nations projections, with base
years from 1950 to 1970 and observed data for the period 1950-1975. They found a consistent
overestimation of the projected growth rate in developing countries after 1960
, which was explained
to a large extent by the rapid slowdown of population growth in China. They also concluded that
errors in the base population and in the growth rate of population immediately preceding the starting
year were important determinants for errors in the projected population size of developing countries.

Keyfitz (1981) and Stoto (1983) analysed, for various countries in the world, errors in projected
population growth rates in projections made by the United Nations during the 1950s and 1960s.
Important findings were that errors varied strongly by region and by base year: regions in which
population growth was high had large errors, as did forecasts made in the early 1950s. Moreover,
Keyfitz concluded that the error in the growth rate was more or less independent of forecast duration.
These conclusions were confirmed by Pflaumer (1988), who analysed the predicted growth rates in
101 countries with at least a million inhabitants (excluding China). Forecasts were those made by the
UN between 1963 and 1978, and actual growth rates applied to the period 1960-1980. Pflaumer found
also some evidence for an improvement over time in the accuracy of the projected growth rates.
Furthermore, errors were relatively small in countries with large population sizes.
The purpose of this report is to extend the analyses of the United Nation's projections mentioned
above, which were focused on growth rates and total population sizes. I investigate the accuracy of
the UN projections of the age structure and birth and death rates in seven major regions of the world:
Africa, Asia, Europe, the USSR, Latin America, Northern America, and Oceania. I also include
findings for a few large countries which may dominate their region: China and India (Asia), and the
USA (Northern America). UN-forecasts made between 1951 and 1988 have been evaluated. Projected
numbers on total population size, crude birth rate, crude death rate, age structure in five-year age
groups and dependency ratios for the period 1950-1990 were compared with corresponding ex-post
observed numbers. I try to answer two broad questions in this report. First, does accuracy differ
strongly among regions? In other words, are population trends in some regions easier to project than
those in other regions? And second, did the UN-projections improve over time? The results indicate
that the latter was indeed the case, not only because base line population estimates were improved,
but also because unforeseen declines in birth rates became less important for projection errors.
Furthermore, to prepare projections is more difficult for some regions than for others. Age structure
projections for the former USSR and for Asia show larger errors than on average. For Asia this is
explained by errors in base populations. When errors in the base population are removed and hence
one considers errors caused by wrong assumptions regarding fertility and mortality only, the age
structure of the former USSR is still very inaccurate, but also that of Oceania, Northern America and
Europe.

In Section 2, I first present a number of simple error measures that have been used for the evaluations.
Next I list the UN-projections that have been selected for the evaluation and give a brief historical
account of main aspects of these projections. I discuss the problem of which data should be used as a
yardstick against which the projected numbers can be compared. I opt for the most recent data, but the
consequence is that I am confronted with a problem which is caused by the continuous revision of
"observed" population numbers. The last issue taken up in Section 2 is a solution to this problem.
Section 3 contains the main findings. The accuracy of total population size is briefly presented. Most
attention is given to errors in crude birth and death rates and in the age structure of the subsequent
forecasts in the various regions. In addition to errors in forecast results by five-year age group,
duration, base year, and region I present observed and forecasted values for the young and the old age
dependency ratios. A number of implications of the findings for population forecasting, as well as
recommendations, are given in Section 4.

The main text focuses often on the accuracy results for the world as a whole for various indicators
(total population, birth and death rates, five-year age groups, and dependency ratios). Errors in these
indicators have also been computed for each of the seven major regions, and sometimes for India,
China and the USA as well. The region-specific results are presented in this report in the form of
tables and figures in the Appendix, but only briefly referred to in the text.

I hate to say it but statistics at the end of the day is a game of guess-work. They'll hit you with all kinds of tough sounding words and 'methods' to mask this but that is the truth! I mean in Iraq, the projected death from the invasion is about 151000 according to official sources, but according to non-official sources, it is well over 1,000,000. Que in political agenda for the first figure.

Anyways, since no one can actually count each person, I suppose this is the next best way but 'honesty' is something lacking and statistics can be 'cooked' beyond belief to show pretty much anything depending on what method you so elect to use. Soooooo, I don't know if 7 billion is right, "near right" or not but am pretty sure it should be taken in with a pinch of salt.. This 'official' bodies have a track record of lies!
 
7 bilion of body.. 50% soul potential.. 4 % psyhopats... 10% ? Of all awarnes or less, othet just "eat, drink, work and have a sex..." This is our reality . It is not important if it is 4 or 7 or 20 .
 

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