Encephalitis by EDTA?

Galaxia2002

Dagobah Resident
Hi Friends I have just writing to you now because I was kind of seasick before and I couldn't do it, I spend a week in a hospital. It seems that I had a bad reaction (anafilactic kind) to EDTA IV, but it is not sure, I am very confused because there are many hypothesis by the doctors and I am want to be sure that it is not what I was eating that day.
Since I test my iron levels and see that there were a bit high I decided to do some EDTA IV rounds with a doctor, she is neuropharmacologist so I have confidence in her, the EDTA she used comes from Germany and and is known internationally. I made my research and I know the pros and cons about that therapy but I don't remember reading about a syndrome like it happened to me. One of the motivations to made it was that I worked long time with heavy metals and I wanted to clean my system. I started without problem with one round by week together with my mother and I have four already done. I felt normal, nothing special. The doctor asked that we went to the therapy having breakfast. The fifth session the last I remember was when I take seat for the chelation. I lost the conscience, and I vomit 10 times. She only passed One cc of chelation solution and put me metroclopramide IV to stop the vomits, here start the confusion since some doctors says that it could be a reaction to that medicine since there is a syndrome produced by that medicine very similar to what happened to me, but there are another doctor that have seen a very similar case in the past where a patient of hers had a viral process in development and with the combination with EDTA IV that "exploded".

Let me explain my symptom's according to the informs from the hospitals:
First Hospital:
32 year old patient after being administered EDETIL presents multiple emetic episodes (in 10 chances) and then was supplied irtopan IV. It was referred to our center with disorientation, somnolence and tonic movements in the limbs. Unfortunately I do not understand what the report says because the letter is unintelligible but I had half of my body paralyzed with one arm tightly attached to the body and the other arm by uncontrollable involuntary movements. With neck stiffness. I was blind for a day and a half. Then I had to change hospitals

Second hospital:
Income Information:
Regular patient conditions, dehydration, tachypnea, tachycardia, neurological disoriented with periods of turmoil, obeying orders, without neurological focusing, normoreactives isochoric eye pupils. ROT II / IV, no neck stiffness.
Join diagnosis
1. Acute confusional syndrome: infectious encephalitis Vs toxic-metabolic
2. mild dehydration

They put me a lot of sodium bicarbonate IV, vitamin B Complex IV, Isotonic NACl IV.


When I become aware, the doctors tell me that I had a toxicologycal reaction to EDTA, and have the brain inflammed, that they had made me a lumbar puction and that they didn't find anything abnormal, no viruses, molds, toxins, etc BUT that they made a mistake and only refrigerated the sample and it should be frozen to continue to do the studies but that was lost. The only abnormal they noted was that I have the white cells high and they suspected meningitis and give me a ciclosporine for prevention. They insisted that it was not food poison according their tests , but that day I had had form breakfast commercial sausage and an ice cream that I made for lard and that I had prepared few days before. I am contacting with people that can do toxicological analysis in food to test what I suspect.

The other part is what I mentioned before about a doctor that observed a similar case, she suspected that I have a virus like citomegalovirus or Epstein Barr, and I suspect she is right even the doctors can't localized any viruses. I remember that some days before the incident I started to sneeze but without any other symptoms. I felt completely normal. She said that I propably had an "hepatic touch" by the virus and order some test for that because the color of my skin so greenish yellow (in the hospital they didn't say anything about my liver. All the doctors forbade me to eat fat because they don't want to do work the liver, but you know the lot of confusion there is about fats.
All the doctors insist that my diet is bad because I am very very underweight. Just that week I seemed to consult you about it, because I started to do workout by almost two month I just can gain one kilo
which is nothing. I am in a paleo without gluten, dairy, sugar (I started to consume a bit to try to gain some fat urgently ) and tried always to maintain below 75 g carbs a day. A doctor suggested that I have probably problems with intestinal villi, that they not only get reduced by gluten intolerance but by a simple gastritis and I have that problem in the past, so I supposed I need to repeat the gastroscopy to observe. I don't know if it is a metabolism thing or an abortion one, but I noted that when I eat fat like the Ice cream I prepared from lard I felt a lot of heat in my body which is an indication that it is indeed being metabolized but the big problem is that it is not stored, is simply dissipated as heat. I read about it in a blog about "the ectomorphic metabolism"
I am get a bit desperate about this diet didn't work like another peoples have reported. I am completely convinced about the advantages of the diet but the fact that it seems don't work for me made ask myself if is a problem in a "spiritual way" that is re-flexed physically. I would really want to know. The diet is supposed to be an instrument not a goal but I have a lot of factors against like that we have no organic food here and I want to assure that I am not getting obsessed. Please help me with this! Each time I decided to reduce more the carbs I lost tones of weight that I can't afford more because it is too much I'm not exaggerating.

Another data is that the last before I donated blood for the first time in my life, but I have good values to do it, good hemoglobin and I feel just fine.

When I feel better I wanted to reflex about metaphysical causes for me be in this situation, but I am very exhausted and I can't write anymore.
Thank you for hear me.
 
To me this episode sounds a lot more like side effects of metoclopramide - it can cause socalled "dystonic reactions" in susceptible patients. Of course this doesn't rule out completely an allergic reaction to EDTA, but I think that is a lot less likely.

The other thing is that you might have to move way down with your carbs to get any benefit, your weight will adapt over time to what is healthy for you.

Encephalitis by EDTA sound like a very long shot by me - of course cytomegaly virus or EB is always a possiility.

I would probably get another shot at EDTA, maybe try an oral round first, before going back to IV - you will see if the same happens again, and if you do it under supervision of a doctor who knows what he is doing you should be fine.

That's jut my 2 cents ...
 
Oh my god, Galaxia. What a horrifying experience. I hope they can give you a definitive answer as to the cause.

As far as the paleo diet, I think you need to increase your fat intake with each meal over time and reduce the carbs as you go.

Take care and I wish you a speedy recovery. :flowers:
 
I am so sorry to hear about this, Galaxia! What a frightening experience!

What do the doctors say to the fact that you already had four rounds of EDTA IV and no symptoms appear? I am doubtful it was the EDTA IV due to this, but I really don't know what might have caused your symptoms. I wonder if the release of metals in your bloodstream from the chelation had a bad reaction with a virus in your system?

Regarding gaining weight, how about adding some instant mashed potatoes to your diet every night? The kind where the potatoes come in flakes in a box, and you only add hot water and plenty of butter to it and that's it. You can add as much butter as you like, it becomes very "soothing food" and fatty. Perhaps try a little bit of it at first to see how you react to it.

I wish I had something to say that would help.... sending you big hugs :hug:
 
Unless you were very sick from heavy metal toxicity and this was diagnosed by a doctor, I can't see any reason to do an IV EDTA chelation.

Sounds like doing too much, too fast, not giving the body time to adjust and let some things take a more natural course of action. That's why we keep telling people, read ALL the threads on the topics, make changes slowly and one at a time, give each change time to "settle" and to test it on your own system before proceeding.

I would also like to point out that, last February there was that comet fragment explosion in Russia and for a number of years now there has been an increasing flux of fireballs and meteorites. The planet is getting loaded with "space dust" as is evidenced by noctilucent clouds appearing more frequently. And comet dust could carry unknown pathogens. Now, above all, is a time when we should be paying very close attention to our bodies and making adjustments according to the signals. And those signals may be subtle and those adjustments slight or gentle.
 
Galaxia2002, that must have been a pretty scary experience! Easy does it! Just last Thursday I was reviewing the side effects of IV EDTA in my pharmacology book, thinking of getting some since it is available upon request. Needless to say, I abstained from the thought after reading the side-effects and reactions. You fit almost point by point in what I read. As rare as it might be, I didn't want to deal with the possibility... For IV EDTA "disódico", it says it is not carried anymore due to the elevated reports of toxicity.

It might not be necessarily the EDTA itself, but what it mobilizes. You name it: lead, mercury, iron etc plus their interactions with microbes. Iron feeds critters. Also, a sudden drop of calcium in the blood that can be very dangerous. If your minerals were not replaced, that could have made you susceptible.

Easy does it. Sounds like adjusting your diet and healing your gut with oral supplementation is a more gentle approach that will prove to be more effective. :flowers:
 
My goodness Galaxia - what an ordeal!!

I agree with the advice (Laura and Psyche)

Psyche said:
Easy does it. Sounds like adjusting your diet and healing your gut with oral supplementation is a more gentle approach that will prove to be more effective. :flowers:

If you decide to test EDTA again, do it orally and watch/feel closely. It seems to me that blood donation and oral EDTA are best. You might try the activated charcoal that anart talked about in the Heamochromatosis thread - it might have the added benefit of helping your gut with any residual toxins.
 
Psyche,

I don't quite agree with your assessment of the iv chelation. I think that it is singularily safe. In over 4 decades of iv chelation (with Disodium EDTA) there are at most 25 deaths attributable to this treatment - most cases happened in the 60s, when the protocols were not fully established, and most of these were patients with reduced renal function who were given EDTA in too high doses too fast. So 25 deaths from over a million patients treated is vanishingly small - a number no over-the-counter drug can remotely compete with.

Of course a pateint can be allergic to EDTA - or more likely to one of the other components that are usually added to it - magnesium preparations, lignocaine, heparine, vitamin C etc - you are probably aware of the amount of people dying every year from peanuts ...

As to the low calcium - that only happens, if the EDTA is infused too quickly (at a greater rate than 1g per hour). EDTA has quite a low affinity to calcium, compared to all the other metals, so in the course of a chelation treatment only about a third of a gram of calcium is excreted, which is about the amount normally excreted in a day and less than is normally absorbed through the diet. Low calcium doesn't happen, if the doctor in question knows what he is doing.

I have had 6 iv EDTA cycles myself without any problem (which of course doesn't say much), but I have also been taking a lower than normal dose (1.5 g per treatment instead of 3 g), precisely for the reason that I am not in a rush and there is also no linear relationship between dose and metal excretion: 3 g doses only excrete around 50% more metals than 1 g does.

One can of course ask reasonably why I do iv cycles, when I could do the oral chelation just as easily and safely. I actually do both, because I believe that they supplement themselves and don't have the exact same effects in the body (the main difference being that by the oral route metals are mainly chelated in the gut which has beneficial effects locally). The main reason I do the iv treqtment as well is to try to get a handle on my sky-high cholesterol (around 10), which hasn't much changed under the ketogenic diet, even with very low carbs. To me these high levels are one of two things: either I am suffering from familial hypercholesterolemia or I have still untackled inflammation somewhere, also I am unable to say where (heavy metals is a distinct possibility).

So my plan is to do 20 cycles with 1.5 g (plus 2.5 g of vit C and 2.4 g of magnesium) and then to recheck my lipids. Of course the whole cholesterol issue is way more complicated and I believe that medicine has not got a good handle on that and statins certainly don't help (they are very effective at lowering cholesterol, but that doesn't translate into increased survival, at least not in primary prevention). So I am running out of options here, on the other hand it is currently unknown if high lipid markers are significant under ketogenic conditions, because this hypothesis has never been tested so far.

I will certainly report back the results once done ...
 
I think that the important thing is to be aware that precautions must be kept in mind. I didn't came across any death reports, it didn't even crossed my mind. Considering the toxic load in our current times and that other nutrients and minerals must be kept on check, it is something that has to be properly done, having resources available in case something goes wrong.

Each individual's case must be assessed. For you it might be a life saver. But you have done the diet and detoxing for quite some time, plus a considerable amount of research on the topic. You are also dealing with a specific issue.

A person that is starting detoxing, well... why not deal with other priorities and try other options available. Like healing the gut, detoxing with supplements and doing the diet properly. And understanding why these changes are necessary based on research. That is more important, IMO.
 
Psyche said:
I think that the important thing is to be aware that precautions must be kept in mind. I didn't came across any death reports, it didn't even crossed my mind. Considering the toxic load in our current times and that other nutrients and minerals must be kept on check, it is something that has to be properly done, having resources available in case something goes wrong.

Each individual's case must be assessed. For you it might be a life saver. But you have done the diet and detoxing for quite some time, plus a considerable amount of research on the topic. You are also dealing with a specific issue.

A person that is starting detoxing, well... why not deal with other priorities and try other options available. Like healing the gut, detoxing with supplements and doing the diet properly. And understanding why these changes are necessary based on research. That is more important, IMO.

I perfectly agree with the above said, Psyche.

I think that EDTA should be done in one form or another by pretty much everyone, because I think that we are all massively heavy metals overloaded.

If you are in a hurry (symptomatic), go down the iv route, but make sure you find a doctor who has experience with it and is not one who has jumped on the EDTA bandwagon for a quick buck, because he is likely to take shortcuts.

If you are healthy and want to take EDTA as a detox and health preservation method, it is probably easier and safer to go down the oral route ...
 
Thanks for your answers. Today I feel better with my head more clear. I forgot to mention that one person died of the same symptoms that I had, in the same hospital, but in that case a bacteria was formally detected. There was another person also with very similar symptoms intoxicated with a bacteria from pigs and as I mentioned I had also ate pig, don't know if there is a connection here.

Laura I don't understand what you consider to fast, diet changes or the EDTA protocol? Regards diet changes I am done it very slowly, already almost two years in that plan, and I went for stages, fallowing what is recommended in the threads in the forum. A gut pain that I have all the time disappeared which I take like good symptom and my evacuations gone regular. I am doing it in a way that today my body accept more fat that before, but the issue is that when I want to reduce the carbs to less that 40 g approx, and increase fat correspondingly the only I got is generation of heat, a lot of it, I can feeling it. I am being able to eat almost 150 g -200 g of fat in a day. My metabolism is so fast that If I do rollerskate by 45 min (one of the few recreational activies I do) I lost one kilo that I last one week in retrieve. The lost of weight is from one day to another, when I wake up I can see the loss of fat in my face and body. I feel that practically every what I do, from having my room completely dark, the supplements, and the diet has the effect of lost weight and that would be proper if I would have a non so fast metabolism. The only that I have read that counteracts this effect is workout, and that's what I started to do two month ago, three times a week by 45 minutes session. No cardio. So it seems that I am in a catabolic state most of the time and I need to go some anabolic, but I don't know what to do without recurring to produce much insulin (the catabolic hormone by excellence). I noted also that smoke made lost fat so I only smoke one daily.
I feel good bodily, with no inflammations that I can detect and with a "record" of no flu or infections or need to take any medicine (except supplements) before this problem I had. Something that could be significant or not is that days before get ill I start to get discharges of static electricity by a toe in my left foot, it comes a moment when the toe hurt.

I really thought that I was very slow in implement changes in myself, because I tend to be passive more that active, and I spend a lot of time thinking more than acting and I am fearful to make changes, for that reason I wonder why you'll tell me I am going fast. Maybe I am doing it and I don't realize it.

Regard the EDTA protocol, why IV? well that's the more studied form of chelation and available where I live for that reason I thought to do 5 sessions at least. I thought that once a week was fine to allow the body replenish the lost elements with supplementation. Although there is evidence that the oral route works I preferred the more known. I read a lot of it before do it so I think the issue is not lack of knowledge but an obsession on another kind?

If my body worked enough good as it was at the moment, may I need to do more changes? may I get obsessed to be "perfect" in health? to experiment with myself? I think that is part of work in the self but maybe I should hear me more that see what other are doing. I realize that likely I was acting a la SAS, this is thinking with fear about this plague issue affected me if I don't get the same diet most of the people have here and concentrate in the body more that the mind. Now pondering about this I tend to think that the preventives measures are enough for me given the circumstances, like avoid sugar, grains, dairy, gluten and nightshades, but I don't trying to do big moving without before consulting here.
 
I put this here because I feel very identified with what is described of the ectomorph metabolism

http://www.coryholly.com/articles/article.cfm?id=40

The Enigma of the Ectomorph

Somatotyping is a system of classifying human physical types and body shape. Developed by American psychologist William Sheldon and revealed in his book The Atlas of Man, human beings are categorized by a natural, genetically predetermined body build, appearance and temperament.

Sheldon wanted to help resolve the age-old question of whether our body type was connected with the way we acted. By exploring the link between body and temperament, and interviewing hundreds of people, he searched for clues and tried to find traits which could describe the basic elements of their behavior. He found there were three basic components of body type that stood out which he called endomorph, mesomorph and ectomorph.

According to Sheldon, everyone has all three elements in their bodily makeup, just as we all have digestive, circulatory and nervous systems. Each person has components and characteristics of an endomorph, mesomorph and ectomorph, but we have these components in varying degrees. Sheldon evaluated the degree a component was present on a scale ranging from one to seven, with one as the minimum and seven as the maximum.

We all have the makings of each bodytype but in general, certain characteristics of our genetic size, cellular make-up and body shape tend to dominate, thus creating a visual contrast controlled by unique biochemical, thermogenic, enzymatic, neurological and hormonal release/sequence patterns.

In essence, the endomorph is round, corpulent and pear-shaped. Arms are shorter and legs have large bones. The mesomorph is broad-shouldered, thick-chested, narrow wasted, lean and muscular. The ectomorph is slim and linear, and small-boned with long arms and a thin neck.

Most of the North American population by nature display endomorphic characteristics, thus explaining (in part) the widespread incidence of obesity. Endomorphs love carbohydrates and are ruled by emotions connected to the pleasure and opiate-like sensation of eating sugar and starch. The 'monkey on their back' enjoys tempting them incessantly with mental images and signals borrowed from memory chips in the brain that stir attraction to smooth, chewy, crunchy foods loaded with sugar and fat. Work, sleep and fitness only serve as temporary distractions from their constant craving.

Then there's the Ectomorph. We all know them ヨ the people who can't gain weight no matter how much food they eat. In fact, they're often mentioned in conversation as a phenomenon, because it's a spectacle to watch someone gulp down food endlessly without 'packing it on' or showing any outward physical evidence of the feat.

Ectomorphs are slender, lean and long, and secretly many endomorphs hate them for it. They tend to miss meals, stop eating under stress and very seldom do they have a sweet tooth.

Their 'monkey' plays with their mind and says things like, "Youメre so skinny you look like a toothpick" or "You're less of a man or woman - literally" the ultimate effect of which often works to lower their self-esteem. An Ectomorph with a concave chest can be just as terrified, sensitive or shy about revealing their physique at a public swimming pool as an endomorph who shudders at the thought of someone catching a glimpse of their ムrear end reality' or 'cottage cheese' thighs.

For the true ectomorph or hard gainer, the two most important limiting factors that prevent normal weight gain and muscular development are metabolism and appetite. Metabolic rate is governed by genetics, but through training, science and nutrition, it is possible to calm things down in the same way we can speed things up for the endomorph. Food must be consumed according to the clock, not according to how you feel. Training is not an option. The entire process must be treated like a business enterprise, to be successful, you do what must be done whether you like it or not.

Hard gainers actually waste a significant amount of energy from food thermogenically through a process called ムfutile cyclingメ. Calories are literally wasted in the form of heat by uncoupling them before they are converted into usable energy and then converted into matter.

Demand for energy is high due to basal metabolic demands, so high in fact, that hardgainers seldom experience the satisfaction of building larger muscles as a consequence of training. A poor appetite doesn't help matters. The appestat is a mechanism in the brain that dictates the amount of food consumed before feelings of satiety arrive. As we know, everyone's appetite varies, and the appetite and minor emphasis on food observed in the ectomorphic model doesnメt make the objective of gaining lean mass any easier. You canメt build something out of nothing.

The physiological characteristics unique to the ectomorph somatotype are fascinating. This body type typically cannot gain weight no matter how much food they eat or how hard they train. Over time, after spending months in the gym and training (often incorrectly), the accretion of mass is viewed as an impossible task, a fleeting fancy. The metabolic rate of an ectomorph is driven by the chemistry of the brain and uncoupling proteins (UCPs) that allow energy to escape through proton channels in the inner mitochondrial membrane of cells.

A single, exact mechanism that describes the relationship between the effects and production of excitatory neurotransmitters, neural inhibitors, uncoupling proteins and appestat function in humans is yet to be revealed. However, individuals who cannot gain weight and struggle to hold on to what they have when exposed to physical or mental stress, display anorexic behavior patterns regarding the consumption of food. This behavior provides clues as to why. Certainly, UCPs, the brain and nervous system are behind the biochemical throttle responsible for revving up the metabolic rate into a catabolic state. Hard gainers tend to put a low to nil priority on food, convert a higher percentage of food matter into heat and are often sinewy and wiry in appearance. They are sometimes viewed as 'nervous' or hyper people that fidget constantly.

We should keep in mind that an underweight condition can negatively affect human performance and often lowers self-esteem. Thin, wiry individuals with a linear appearance that reveals no bulges along the frame possess many Type A personality traits. They often suffer from anxiety and nervous system-related problems and are prone to neurological trauma.

So, how can a hard-gainer increase his or her lean body mass? Listed below are some of the major points Iメve discovered to be essential, and in private consultation with clients, each one is discussed and explored in great detail.

ユ Increase food intake systematically: supply the demand
ユ Learn how to sedate the mind & nervous system
ユ Create a growth impulse through progressive resistance-training: train like a powerlifter/bodybuilder
ユ Modify aerobic activity and minimize unnecessary fuel expenditure
ユ Reduce or eliminate intake of empty carbohydrates & chemically damaged fats
ユ Consume slow-burning, low-glycemic energy dense fuel
Maintain a positive nitrogen balance: consume 2-3 g of high-quality protein per kilogram of lean body mass daily in 6 individual portions
ユ Decrease catabolism and thermogenesis with supplements: lecithin granules, calcium, magnesium, niacin, B-complex, inositol, melatonin, GABA, glycine, 5-HTP, tryptophan, acetyl-L-carnitine, HMB, CLA, vitamin C, gingko biloba and phosphatidylserine.
ユ Stimulate the appetite (weight-lifting, B12 & zinc)
ユ Improve sleep habits (power naps & evening calcium loading)
ユ Avoid stimulants (ephedrine, caffeine, tobacco) (note mine: I noted this is real)
Consume liberal amounts of clean fats & oils.

The answer to part of the ectomorphic challenge lies in the amount and quality of carbs, fats and proteins (macronutrients) consumed daily. Correct training is paramount. Attitude is huge. The ectomorph must be realistic, consistent, and above all PATIENT (part of my problem). The motto is "I will persist until I succeed". If the ectomorphic athlete can take in sufficient calories, modify catabolism, sedate body chemistry, stimulate growth, conserve energy and efficiently convert energy from food into living tissue, quality muscle mass will be gained along with essential structural bodyfat.
 
Galaxia2002,

I wonder if you should just forget about your weight, focus on well-being instead and let the body go where it wants to (of course within reason) ... But it seems to me that you are overly focussed on weight, so maybe you should get rid of your scale?

:)

Also I think that you might be jojoing around with diet changes, meaning that you seem to respond very quickly to changes in your body with rather drastic changes in your diet. This may lead to a sort of catching up game where the body is unable to settle into a "steady state". So my advice to you would be to stick to one sort of diet composition and to follow that through for a while without changing and if it doesn't work out well, to change only one thing in not too drastic ways and then keep that constant for awhile and reassess etc ...

But I think that one of the most important aspects is that you feel bodily well ... and I think that's already achieved a lot!

As to your last post, I think that limiting sports (to avoid "burning" calories) might exactly be the wrong thing to do - you probably should adopt eccentric resistance training (eg kettle bells) with or without occasional high-intensity interval training. The amount of calories burned during sporting activities are usually not very high, but they effect a profound change in metabolism, and if you really have an ectomorphic metabolism, then limiting sports would exactly be the wrong thing to do, as far as I inderstand the topic.
 
Galaxia2002 said:
I put this here because I feel very identified with what is described of the ectomorph metabolism

http://www.coryholly.com/articles/article.cfm?id=40

The Enigma of the Ectomorph

Somatotyping is a system of classifying human physical types and body shape. Developed by American psychologist William Sheldon and revealed in his book The Atlas of Man, human beings are categorized by a natural, genetically predetermined body build, appearance and temperament.
.....

I studied some of Sheldon's work many years ago - and it is fascinating - the connections he makes. I'm not so sure of this author's interpretations though.
 
nicklebleu said:
I wonder if you should just forget about your weight, focus on well-being instead and let the body go where it wants to (of course within reason) ... But it seems to me that you are overly focussed on weight, so maybe you should get rid of your scale?

Thinking about it, yes I keep watching my body everyday, not weighting but gaze my body shape, so I will try to explore if there is a psychological problem here. Regards what I would do that I remember help me in the past to gain some fat is to eat more portions by day.
Also I think that you might be jojoing around with diet changes, meaning that you seem to respond very quickly to changes in your body with rather drastic changes in your diet. This may lead to a sort of catching up game where the body is unable to settle into a "steady state"

I thought was on the contrary but I think you are right, now that I think better of it!

As to your last post, I think that limiting sports (to avoid "burning" calories) might exactly be the wrong thing to do - you probably should adopt eccentric resistance training (eg kettle bells) with or without occasional high-intensity interval training.

Thanks for your advices!
 
Back
Top Bottom