Everyday sadists take pleasure in others' pain

I almost instantly choose cleaning toilets, but after reflecting a bit about it, I sconcluded that all options, I concluded they involved all killing something, except the ice. Experiment. Even cleaning toilets involve killing microbes, I considered the ice option too!

Back to the sadists now... I think sadism is an extreme form of psychopathy because psychopaths "at least" pursue some material gain/profit when inflicting pain to others, while sadists do so solely and uniquely for their own pleasure! I personnally can't apprehend this deviation!
 
wmu9 said:
Has anyone considered your preference for not killing bugs AND cleaning toilets is part of your religious "purity" programming?

I won't spoil the surprise should you ever get tested, but I can think a few experiments already conducted where the "puritans" were the ones inflicting pain.

Are you saying that people who voted for not killing bugs and cleaning toilets instead are brainwashed by religion and are ultimately hypocrites because in other contexts they would not hesitate to inflict pain ?
 
Cleaning toilets for me, too. Although I did entertain the thought of ice water, but as someone else said, I was seeing it as going from sadism to masochism. :/
 
Mrs. Tigersoap said:
wmu9 said:
Has anyone considered your preference for not killing bugs AND cleaning toilets is part of your religious "purity" programming?

I won't spoil the surprise should you ever get tested, but I can think a few experiments already conducted where the "puritans" were the ones inflicting pain.

Are you saying that people who voted for not killing bugs and cleaning toilets instead are brainwashed by religion and are ultimately hypocrites because in other contexts they would not hesitate to inflict pain ?

Regarding cleaning toilets, maybe he meant something along this lines;

_http://labs.psychology.illinois.edu/pramlab/Papers/Preston_Ritter_2012.pdf

Religious primes were found to activate cleanliness concepts in a word-stem completion task (Study 1), and increased the subjective value of cleaning products (Study 2). In a final study, cleaning primes increased ratings of religious value. These studies suggest a mutual association between religiousness and cleanliness, and that each may activate the other as goals for personal purity.
[....]

Recently there has been renewed interest in the psychological literature in disgust as moral emotion. Rozin, Haidt, and McCauley (2000) distinguish between core disgust, elicited by rotting food or poisonous substances, animal nature disgust, elicited by poor hygiene and body functions, and socio-moral disgust, elicited by violations of moral rules. Socio-moral disgust is argued to be an evolutionary extension of primary disgust, but remains closely connected to feelings of physical disgust.

Physical disgust (e.g., from a bad taste or smell) also elicits harsher judgments of moral transgressions (Eskine, Kacinik, & Prinz, 2011; Horberg, Oveis, Keltner, & Cohen, 2009; Schnall, Haidt, Clore, & Jordan, 2008). On the other hand, feelings of physical purity seem to embody personal morality and integrity (Lee & Schwarz, 2010; Liljenquist, Zhong, & Galinsky, 2010). For instance, the mere act of washing one's hands after committing an immoral action appears to alleviate guilt and other negative feelings (Zhong & Liljenquist, 2006), literally washing away one's sins. Feelings of disgust and purity are experienced as more than a physical state of relative cleanliness, but also embody feelings of relative morality.

However, ritual washing is also often used to bestow symbolic purity, (e.g., baptism, mikvah, ablution), and commonly practiced in preparation for contact with sacred objects or activities (e.g., before prayer or entering a temple).

Religion and spirituality are therefore closely bound up in concerns for purity. Religious doctrines not only prescribe cleaning behaviors
that foster physical hygiene, but the act of religious devotion is itself represented as a motivation for spiritual purity. This connection
between religion and purity is so deep-seated it frequently has been taken for granted.
Religious purity rituals are often cited to support the case for the embodiment of morality (Graham & Haidt, 2010; Looy, 2004; Zhong & Liljenquist, 2006), and socio-moral disgust has been characterized as a response to violations of “divinity” (Rozin, Lowery, Imada, & Haidt, 1999). Some correlational evidence shows that religiosity is associated with greater obsessiveness (Lewis, 1998), and distaste for “sick” humor (Saroglou & Anciaux, 2004), and other research has shown that exposure to rejected religious beliefs can elicit disgust (Ritter & Preston, 2011). But to date, no empirical work has directly investigated the conceptual or motivational association between religion and cleanliness. The present research aimed to do just that, in three studies.


(You can read the studies at the link)

Results and discussion (of the third study)

Along with Studies 1 and 2, this finding suggests a mutual association between cleanliness and religion, as cleanliness primes increased self-reported value of religion. Although we did not include a control condition here, these findings are consistent with evidence that embodiment of personal cleanliness enhances feelings of personal righteousness (Zhong et al., 2010), and likewise we should expect that clean primes are responsible for these effects. When in a state of physical cleanliness, one adopts an overall sense of personal purity that can be translated into other judgments of the self as “pure” (e.g., morally,
spiritually).
Interestingly, these results may seem to be at odds with the “Macbeth effect” (Zhong & Liljenquist, 2006), where recalling past unethical actions motivates physical cleanliness, as a way of compensating for moral impurity. Unlike the Macbeth effect, the “dirtiness” prime did not elicit greater religious value to compensate for feelings of physical impurity. Perhaps the difference arises from the particular threat to self-esteem presented by feeling immoral, that elicits the compensatory goals for physical cleanliness observed in the Macbeth effect. In contrast, feeling physically unclean does not present the same threat
that feeling immoral does, and so does not elicit the same need to compensate. Rather, feelings of physical purity directly embody feelings of spiritual purity. This is consistent with recent evidence that physical cleanliness embodies a sense of moral purity (e.g., Liljenquist et al., 2010). For instance, the same clean prime manipulation we use here has been demonstrated to increase feelings of moral superiority over others (Zhong et al., 2010), suggesting an association between feeling clean and feeling virtuous.


So there does appear to be some religious connotations behind cleanliness. OSIT. The toilet can symbolize something 'dirty' impure etc and the act of cleaning it can have religious connotations where one feels more virtuous. On the opposite scale, dirty toilets can elicit 'disgust' which can also have religious connotations to it, feelings of impurity and all etc.


Regarding enduring pain, eg a cold shower, again this can have religious connotations. Picture all those monks whipping themselves endlessly or a yogi enduring a grueling physical position for hours etc. It is like a personal test the results of which have 'religious' significance. I am sure you can find studies to demonstrate this.

With regard to killing bugs, I am sure you can find studies based on religious connotations that will separate those who will go out of there way not to kill bugs, those who won't mind killing an annoying bug, those who will go out of there way to kill bugs etc.

So wmu9 might have a valid point in my view. OSIT.

Taking you Mrs Tigersoap for example, I see 2 extreme ends, on one side you would clean the toilets as said below

Same here. I had chosen cleaning toilets...

on the same instant you demonstrated a great aversion to cleaning toilets,

but then I remembered the state of some horribly dirty toilets I have known in the past (believe or not, worse than what you Gertrudes described... :shock:).

This other toilets were horrendously dirty you couldn't even describe them directly.

This for example as per the studies above could be an indication of some underlying religious programming. If I could take it further I would say for example your question to wmu9 was loaded with religious connotations e.g. hypocrites, self-righteous thinking with th intent to rebuke. To illustrate based on your question to wmu9

Those who voted not killing bugs and went for cleaning toilets are 'brainwashed' (which is something we hear atheists say about religious types but it is not something wmu9 said which indicated we are judging his statements from a certain point of view that says more about us than it does him) and are ultimately hypocrites (famous words used in the Bible by Jesus) because in other contexts they would not hesitate to inflict pain (the bolded word 'not hesitate' indicates you have added more gusto into what wmu9 said therefore changing its meaning where in this situation he becomes 'not religious' and you are playing the role of a 'puritan'. All by self design i.e. by how you interpreted what he said and thus re-directed it back to him and for others to 'judge' him - 'oh look this is what he means' transmitted as an innocent question which in my view is anything but innocent as it is a minefield for wmu9 for the mere fact it is heavily loaded).

It is ironic that, depending on how wmu9 answers your question, what he said as a closing statement would become self-evident

I won't spoil the surprise should you ever get tested, but I can think a few experiments already conducted where the "puritans" were the ones inflicting pain.

i.e. he would bear the pain from a 'puritan'.

That is my interpretation.
 
This is what the researchers intended IMO:
"sadistic" - killing bugs
"mildly sadistic" - helping the experimenter kill bugs
"mildly masochistic" - cleaning dirty toilets
"masochistic" - enduring pain from ice water

I lean toward the second choice. I don't want to clean dirty toilets if I don't absolutely have to, and if bugs are gonna die anyway, I might as well "help."

I'm pretty sure that all (or most) of us have a little bit of the sadist inside us... just like we all have the psychic vampire in us, dormant unless activated... and it goes back to a STS archetype/consciousness, like the "Hook Operators" from Operators and Things.

And we are free to be "sadists" by default until the emotional center is awakened. Or is it the magnetic center, our internal compass...

Certain situations, certain individuals, yes I probably would be given over to hurting them and "enjoying" it, enough to dismiss knowing that I'll have to face my own natural guilt after the fact. If I hate them enough, and I probably have a good reason for hating them - because they're inhuman and caused me a lot of pain. And that would probably be splitting marvelously.

But is vengeance really worth it? To troll the trolls? Why would I want to give them my energy? Waste my best ideas on them? They say that the best revenge is to live well. As the C's said, act in favor of your destiny. And that may take the form of "trolling the trolls" but if so, it's done in the context of putting the fruits of your creativity out there in the world to champion whatever cause and inspire whoever. Yep, that's what I think.
 
fwiw my first answer was 'none of the above'. Having to make a choice it would be cleaning toilets without hesitation - like others have mentioned I realised it was one of those questions you don't over think or bring context/past history into, it's simply what you would prefer to do at your core if you had to do one of those and had no other frame of reference.

It could perhaps be simplified to
1) Kill something that is defenceless (cause suffering and pain)
2) Assist in killing something that is defenceless (causing suffering and pain)
3) Suffer discomfort
4) Suffer pain/shock

Having said that, I do like Laura's mention of cleaning toilets is at least making the world a better place :)

Along those lines.....(as a kid) did anyone ever take a magnifying glass to ants? salt to slugs? pull the legs/wings of crane flies?
For the record I never did, but would always feel disgusted with others who did - I'd try and stop them.
 
Mrs. Tigersoap said:
Gertrudes said:
On the other hand, the first image I had about cleaning toilets was my husband's description of how nauseatingly dirty the toilets in his pub can get, with people's vomit all over the place, tampons, poo on the walls, and you don't want to know what else.

Same here. I had chosen cleaning toilets as it's a job I usually don't mind but then I remembered the state of some horribly dirty toilets I have known in the past (believe or not, worse than what you Gertrudes described... :shock:).
So, I would have to see how dirty the said toilets are first...
Ice cold shower for me, I guess. :D

Some toilets are worst then the worst of the bugs. Some toilets, and I remember one in a convent, was like a nightmare. You dream of this toilet and you wake up yelling. ;)
 
My answer before reading the article has been cleaning dirty toilets, my husband would prefer enduring pain from ice water.In any case also when we have to kill mosquitos because they're making our life a hell, it's never a pleasure to take another life. So for me better cleaning toilets , it's always a pleasure to enter a cleaned and scented one. :)
 
As I had a fight that lasted two years with big cockroaches in my house, I was considering for an instant the killing bugs option and even did a search on Google to see if cockroaches are included among bugs species (I´m not English). But in understanding the context of all four questions, I too ended choosing the toilet option, although I didn´t make this choice right away. Surely because remembering the day I brushed my hair, well I better let you guess what happened..., I am not even a rational being any more. I´m lucky I can always scream and call my husband for help in such situation, which I think is somewhat telling regarding my instinctive survival abilities.

quote from: Loreta
And bees and wasps also, no more killing them and if they come inside the house I talk to them and say to them to go outside and they listen to me.

Same here, they actually obey when saying it in a firm tone of voice and not giving in any kind of ill will; just the same way I would tell a dog to sit down.

quote from: Luke Wilson
However, house flies, as annoying as they can be when buzzing around your ears, I try and direct them outside as they are just to darn quick.

What helps a bit is persuing the flies towards the opposite side you want them to leave.
 
I choose cleaning toilets. :lol: But one of the possible answers, i.e. "enduring pain from ice water" got me thinking. I've never experienced pain from ice water, so I don't know. Reading about those heart-wrenching frostbite experiments that Nazis and Japanese did before and during the war as a part of their bioweapons research, was so painful it actually took my breath away, literally, for a while... So, I probably wouldn't voluntarily choose that. But jumping into ice cold water after a hot sauna is really enjoyable experience, osit. I don't feel pain. It's a mild shock, but if you moving in the water, it's actually very invigorating and pleasant. I just recently started visiting Korean sauna (highly recommended!) where they have an ice water pool and a so-called "ice sauna" (salt sauna, clay sauna and much more). My daughter and her friend loved it too! As I observed, they can stay in the cold water so much longer than most adults. Sorry, probably, :offtopic:
 
luke wilson said:
Regarding cleaning toilets, maybe he meant something along this lines;

_http://labs.psychology.illinois.edu/pramlab/Papers/Preston_Ritter_2012.pdf
<snip>

So there does appear to be some religious connotations behind cleanliness. OSIT. The toilet can symbolize something 'dirty' impure etc and the act of cleaning it can have religious connotations where one feels more virtuous. On the opposite scale, dirty toilets can elicit 'disgust' which can also have religious connotations to it, feelings of impurity and all etc.

Or it could simply be a normal desire for hygiene. Non religious people can prefer cleanliness as well.

[quote author=luke wilson]
Regarding enduring pain, eg a cold shower, again this can have religious connotations. Picture all those monks whipping themselves endlessly or a yogi enduring a grueling physical position for hours etc. It is like a personal test the results of which have 'religious' significance. I am sure you can find studies to demonstrate this.
[/quote]

Or it could be a way to challenge oneself as a test of endurance - without having anything to do with religion.

[quote author=luke wilson]
With regard to killing bugs, I am sure you can find studies based on religious connotations that will separate those who will go out of there way not to kill bugs, those who won't mind killing an annoying bug, those who will go out of there way to kill bugs etc.
[/quote]

Or one could easily find people who do the above (tree hugger brand of environmentalists, normals, sadists) whose actions are not related to religion.

[quote author=luke wilson]
So wmu9 might have a valid point in my view. OSIT.
[/quote]

I am one of the persons who chose the toilet cleaning option and it had nothing to do with religion. So his point is invalid as far as I am concerned.

[quote author=luke wilson]
Taking you Mrs Tigersoap for example, I see 2 extreme ends, on one side you would clean the toilets as said below

Same here. I had chosen cleaning toilets...

on the same instant you demonstrated a great aversion to cleaning toilets,

but then I remembered the state of some horribly dirty toilets I have known in the past (believe or not, worse than what you Gertrudes described... :shock:).

This other toilets were horrendously dirty you couldn't even describe them directly.

This for example as per the studies above could be an indication of some underlying religious programming. If I could take it further I would say for example your question to wmu9 was loaded with religious connotations e.g. hypocrites, self-righteous thinking with th intent to rebuke. To illustrate based on your question to wmu9
<snip>
[/quote]

Or it could be that you are seeing things that are not there which speaks more about yourself than what Mrs Tigersoap wrote. Specially the amount of energy you seemed to have put in to "defend" wmu9 before letting him respond to a question directed towards him is interesting to observe.

[quote author=luke wilson]
It is ironic that, depending on how wmu9 answers your question, what he said as a closing statement would become self-evident

I won't spoil the surprise should you ever get tested, but I can think a few experiments already conducted where the "puritans" were the ones inflicting pain.

i.e. he would bear the pain from a 'puritan'.

That is my interpretation.
[/quote]

I could not understand your interpretation. Wmu9 is perhaps referring to Stanley Milgram's experiments which have been repeated by others later. Those experimental results (inflicting pain when asked to do so) apply to the "authoritarian" type - who may or may not be religious.

You wrote this earlier
[quote author=luke wilson]
I protest,

I'll be honest, I originally went with killing bugs... then before I started reading I changed to 'none of the above'.

I don't go out of my way to kill bugs, nor am I actually some bug 'murderer', I however will squash a mosquito to kingdom come if it dared landed on my skin or I will and I am sorry to say this, squash a spider to oblivion if it dared appear menacing and threatening. However, house flies, as annoying as they can be when buzzing around your ears, I try and direct them outside as they are just to darn quick.

Does the above make me a sadist? I protest against this experiment.
[/quote]

Me thinks you protest a bit too much. Wonder why this simple one question test is raising such hackles?
 
Maybe you are right obyvatel.

Apologies.

As to the hackles question, my answer is I don't know. If I was to attempt to answer I would say something along the lines of, these specific pieces of research can be interpreted many ways e.g. as you did on the cleanliness and religiosity research. You have valid points that can disprove its findings.

Anyways, from my understanding one of the main things that are meant to come out of these sorts of social psychology type of research is 'discussion'. They are slightly different lets say from a physics experiment for example in that here we have more room to explore the underlying reasons. That is how I remember it from university, it could be wrong. Classes in behavioral economics had more debate and discussion than lets say physics. Again, this was just my subjective experience which could be wrong.

I was just 'discussing' as you are with your response.

I'll think more about what you have said.

As to why I 'defended' wmu9, its because I felt what he said 'irked' Mrs Tigersoap. Again, subjective judgement which could be wrong. Maybe the lesson is not to be led by such judgements but then if I let it sit inside me I wouldn't get the opportunity to learn from it. I felt it was within wmu9 prerogative to give his view (in the spirit of exploration and discussion) but then it was also within mrs tigersoaps prerogative to ask her question. I just intruded I suppose.

Again apologies.
 
RedFox said:
Along those lines.....(as a kid) did anyone ever take a magnifying glass to ants? salt to slugs? pull the legs/wings of crane flies?

I actually did the opposite. When I was very young I would make houses for the ants using sticks and stones. I also once brought two snails from my schoolyard to my home, because they seemed tangled up, and they had sand all over them. My mom was okay with it and she said I could put them on the table on our balcony. Some days later when they were clean and untangled, I put them outside on the ground again. And, once, my little brother and I captured a spider and put it in a jar (poor spider), we gave him some bread, but after some days he died. And lastly what I remember is that one day my little brother and I sneaky took two eggs from the refrigerator and put them under a warm blanket and sometimes under our shirts so that they would hatch :lol:
 
Oxajil said:
I actually did the opposite. When I was very young I would make houses for the ants using sticks and stones. I also once brought two snails from my schoolyard to my home, because they seemed tangled up, and they had sand all over them. My mom was okay with it and she said I could put them on the table on our balcony. Some days later when they were clean and untangled, I put them outside on the ground again. And, once, my little brother and I captured a spider and put it in a jar (poor spider), we gave him some bread, but after some days he died. And lastly what I remember is that one day my little brother and I sneaky took two eggs from the refrigerator and put them under a warm blanket and sometimes under our shirts so that they would hatch :lol:

:lol: (I hope the eggs weren't hardboiled, at least? :lol:)
 
RedFox said:
Along those lines.....(as a kid) did anyone ever take a magnifying glass to ants? salt to slugs? pull the legs/wings of crane flies?
For the record I never did, but would always feel disgusted with others who did - I'd try and stop them.

When I was a little kid I once stepped on a perfect line of walking ants because I was fascinated that after a few seconds they would go back in line but then I realized what I had done and it made me sick to my stomach.

On another occasion I was at a friend's house and he had fun cutting worms in half which I found horrifying, why would anyone do that to a harmless worm ? I never played with him again.

I think that sometimes as a kid you don't really realize what you're doing until it's too late but it helps making such mistakes to grow up and start asking yourself some questions about life, death & the consequences of your actions.
 
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