feeding the moon

[Argonaut]

I did really enjoy Ismael, although the anthropology was a bit sketchy in places. I loved the allegorical quality of the story.

At the time I read it one of the difficulties I had was with the explanation for Cain and Abel, as a story describing the tensions between agriculturalists and pastoralists. I think the story of Cain and Abel has deeper esoteric meaning, and aside from that, in my opinion, pastoralists cannot really be categorized as Leavers. To be a pastoralists is still to hold other beings in bondage, in slavery. The primary concern of a pastoralist is to mold the world into one best suited for ungulates. The distinctions between pastoralism and hunting and gathering people are still pretty huge. We have to be very specific. I hesitate to even use the word native or indigenous because the Aztecs were indigenous but in all respects had far more similarities with ancient Sumerians than, say, Lakota people. When we trot out hunter and gatherer people to make a point we have to be careful not to fall into the noble savage trap. It's hard to be objective sometimes and to hold two disparate ideas in juxtaposition, such as a respect for all life and infanticide or euthanasia or for that matter warfare.

So while it is that I have found really specific seemingly universal distinctions that are worth further analysis, not to mention I have pretty deep ties with that sort of culture on a personal level, I try to be aware of my own subjectivity and make a point of looking at things I don't really want to consider because they sort of screw up the whole pretty picture of native people=good, civilization= bad.
Quinn is painting a pretty simplistic picture in Ismael with a limited palette, but all that said, I think it's a great book as a jumping off point. Actually the first two books are both good, then well... He goes to great length to illustrate the superiority of the 'old gods' as opposed to the 'God of the Bible' when, in fact, he misses the point entirely which is...they are the same.

You make some great points. Quinn does a good job as far as it goes, but I agree he oversimplifies things. Ishmael worked for me as a broad view of how our culture is rotten from its very foundation. It's a good jumping off point, as you said. I wasn't aware of Quinn's direction after Ishmael; you're right that his comparison of "gods" misses the point.

As for the "noble savage" issue... yeah, it's easy to paint all hunter/gatherers as 100% good and civilization as totally evil. But humans have been STS for over 300,000 years - long before the advent of civilization. So although ancient hunter/gatherers were more "connected to the Earth" and so on, they still had many STS flaws. You're also right that not all pre-civilization peoples were hunter/gatherers. Pastoralism was no better than agriculture, like you said. And groups like the Aztecs seem to have been ponerized just as badly as we are today.

[quote author=Kila]
Derrick Jenson..... I love Derrick. He's actually a friend of a friend, though I can't say I know him well at all. He's a beautiful human being but, due to no fault of his own, is in such tremendous pain it's hard to stand next to him( he was terribly abused as a child, he writes about it some in his first book). He's used the pain and it has been an impetus for him to do the work he's doing. I just wish, somehow, he could get to the other side of it. I've enjoyed reading him. But when I do I smoke a lot, it's just so big and heavy. A little like SOTT.

My favorite books are A Language Older than Words and his book of interviews and essays...Listening to the Land: Conversations on Nature, Culture and Eros.
[/quote]

I've been itching to read Derrick's stuff for a while now, and after this I think I will. Interesting that you know him personally. As for Derrick conquering his pain, he may benefit greatly from the "big 5" psychology books often recommended on this forum. Specifically, I'm thinking of The Narcissistic Family (Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman and Robert M. Pressman) and Trapped in The Mirror (Elan Golomb), although he could benefit from all five - the others being The Myth of Sanity (Martha Stout), Unholy Hungers (Barbara Hort), and In Sheep's Clothing (George K. Simon). Maybe you or your mutual friend can mention these to him.

[quote author=Kila]
Speaking of Jensen... have your read any of John Zerzan? I really enjoyed his book Running on Emptiness: The Pathology of Civilization.
[/quote]

No, I haven't. *Adds him to reading list* Thanks! :)

 

[Voyageur]

Just catching up, thank you Kila for your reply; was away doing a border fence run (as ridicules as that sounds) for organic tobacco not available at this time in our country. :(

Firstly, concerning my reply regarding your groupings in “concepts and pretexts”:

Kila;

Now we will compare the above with the concepts held by 'primitives'(very specifically hunter and gatherers) as follows: and * Blood sacrifice unknown.

And as I quoted below:

Well perhaps in lunar (generally northern) worshiping communities but hardly unknown in southern Sun worshiping communities as historical fruits show.

Your “primitive” sacrifice distinction went right over my head and my error was made having gravitated away from what you clearly mentioned, thus was my focus on rather those modern (10k +/-) influenced by supreme beings that commanded or have inferred sacrificial offerings from peoples. In this error outside those pretexts of hunter gatherers, southern rites (sun worship) were in reference as opposed to the northern (lunar worship) when monoethic or godly dominions were entrenched, albeit from either continent. Your scepticism to my point was well founded – thanks for pointing that out!

It seems reaching back into the historical tombs 300k and further, with tell-tale signs from archaeology to surmise how people functioned within their societal roots is indeed difficult especially if cataclysmic events tilled the gravels. It seems the only vestiges are perhaps just left as threads/words within mythological ledged from oral traditions and a very careful rendering of those myths is required.

shijing seems to have captured you pretexts well with his comment;

One of the main themes it explores is that the 'primitive' religions maintain a positive older tradition in piecemeal form to various degrees (with a focus on shamanism), whereas the monotheistic religions represent an innovation -- a specific program generated by 4D STS (the 'gods') in order to achieve a spectrum of thought control and societal control objectives, keeping the sheep subdued in their pens until they can be fleeced and eaten. There is a Jehovah discussion in there which you will probably find quite enjoyable.

Your years of work in Anthropology clearly speak to this next comment;

I keep bringing up the native or aboriginal mind set because I have spent many years considering and comparing the similiarities between the Western (that which was born in the Fertile Crescent) and aboriginal paradigms, assumptions and perspectives. I keep looking for universal themes. I have found a certain unity of thought among all aboriginal hunter and gatherer people whether they inhabit the North American plains, the Kalahari, Alice Springs or the Amazon. And those assumptions about the nature of human existence or reality stands pretty much in opposition to the assumptions made within the Western traditions as I am aware of them.

The shamanistic and goddess beliefs seem firm, within; community minded and for much of time remained unpolluted/ separate from those assumptions of the western mind, from without. Uninitiated western mind indeed makes many blind assumptions of the things separate and even things within their/our physical constitution. I remember reading Manly Hall discussing meditation by westerners and he implied that our minds had such gulfs between those of the eastern mind that meditation requires much more respect than what the western mind fathoms; concept differentials.

When you said, “So, please forgive me for constantly bringing up the comparison”, there is nothing to forgive, it is important to look at comparisons to learn, so thank you! And about being patient, everyone here is learning by different degree and generally patients, least one forget helpfulness too, with well intentioned techniques, much in evidence in the forum; take all the time you need.

You said;

I'll tell you something that, is a struggle for me to digest, has been, what seems to me, a superior attitude towards the natural world. I am trying to understand this and not react. Just observing my reactions though it brings up some anger and hurt as if you were saying something insulting about my mother.

That's how strongly we feel about our relatives the many leggeds, so to say they are somehow beneath us...well... It smacks of 'holding dominion' over nature. Now I do feel that I must be missing something because I already feel sure that you all are not of that mindset.

Personally, I do not see this as a place with a mindset of superiority over Nature. This seems ultimately to be a place where understanding nature, in so many varied aspects, is paramount; from the macro to the micro. Awareness and understanding is the work.

The only difficulty I am having is that we have frequent interactions with 'animal' spirits that also help us increase awareness. Don't know what to do with that one. We just don't see ourselves above other animals, unique perhaps, but it isn't so much a pulling up as a reciprocal relationship between us and the animal people. So dunno...
I'll keep working on it. For us, the ultimate goal, is to be in right relationship with all things.. You all seem to be striving towards something similar..am I right? I am still very glad to be in your company.

“…right relationship with all things.” From various discourse here it seems understanding the relationship of all things, seeing the different faces of flora, fauna, humans, and the elements and chemistry that binds is what is on the mind of many here, OSIT. Of the spirit aspect of animals, having spent years within the wilderness, living between two distinct tribal peoples and a particular association with a shaman who ‘journeyed’ he said, with my sprit animal and told me of its nature - who I did not know initially, and did not wax to this particularly, especially being of western mind. But as the years past and with further visits, what he described was this identification with this animal’s nature and upon retrospection, there seems to be awareness of this nature and by this animal lessons are and have been learned when I cared to listen – at least that is my subjective unquantifiable feeling.

[Off topic note: of the two tribes, one is the Blackfoot (feet) and have a blood type which is 80+ % ‘A’ positive in a predominance of ‘O’ type which seems statistically startling; maybe skijing could comment on this as he has run a threat on blood types?]

Not sure if you have come across within this forum the name Victoria Rider, AKA Pepperfritz, but if not, there was a quote saved of hers and for me it is worth striving for which is essentially the same as what you said below;

There are certain beliefs I carry I do hold dear in that they have been hard won, but not so dear as to trade them for truth.

Pepperfritz said;

I am always actively seeking new information with which to revise my working "map". From past experience I am highly aware of how such information can dramatically change one's perspective, view, beliefs, etc., and why it is therefore necessary to hold one's ideas "lightly" and always be prepared to let go of them whenever new data becomes available.

Link: In Memorium: Pepperfritz

Finally, as if we don’t have any reading to do; really appreciate the things you had to say and I’ve learned much as I do from everyone here - thank you! :)

PS – My fuax pas concerning “lightning strike” and probably much else, made me think of this;

Words do not express thoughts very well. They always become a little different immediately after they are expressed, a little distorted, a little foolish.

Hermann Hesse

 

[Kila]

The shamanistic and goddess beliefs seem firm, within; community minded and for much of time remained unpolluted/ separate from those assumptions of the western mind, from without. Uninitiated western mind indeed makes many blind assumptions of the things separate and even things within their/our physical constitution. I remember reading Manly Hall discussing meditation by westerners and he implied that our minds had such gulfs between those of the eastern mind that meditation requires much more respect than what the western mind fathoms; concept differentials.

This is really interesting to me. I have not read Manly Hall though I did read a book called The Geography of Thought: How Asians and Westerner Think Differently...and Why. By Richard E. Nisbett. Would you suggest something by Hall along this line?

It seems reaching back into the historical tombs 300k and further, with tell-tale signs from archaeology to surmise how people functioned within their societal roots is indeed difficult especially if cataclysmic events tilled the gravels. It seems the only vestiges are perhaps just left as threads/words within mythological ledged from oral traditions and a very careful rendering of those myths is required.

Yes.. to be sure. My tendency is to believe that there has been a series of civilizations. That said I still wonder if some humans didn't remain feral so to speak, preserving more of the STO tendency. Not sure if I'm articulating this very well.


…

right relationship with all things.” From various discourse here it seems understanding the relationship of all things, seeing the different faces of flora, fauna, humans, and the elements and chemistry that binds is what is on the mind of many here, OSIT. Of the spirit aspect of animals, having spent years within the wilderness, living between two distinct tribal peoples and a particular association with a shaman who ‘journeyed’ he said, with my spirit animal and told me of its nature - who I did not know initially, and did not wax to this particularly, especially being of western mind. But as the years past and with further visits, what he described was this identification with this animal’s nature and upon retrospection, there seems to be awareness of this nature and by this animal lessons are and have been learned when I cared to listen – at least that is my subjective unquantifiable feeling.

[Off topic note: of the two tribes, one is the Blackfoot (feet) and have a blood type which is 80+ % ‘A’ positive in a predominance of ‘O’ type which seems statistically startling; maybe skijing could comment on this as he has run a threat on blood types?]

Very very interesting.. would love to have this conversation. Yes I will check out that thread... thanks.

Personally, I do not see this as a place with a mindset of superiority over Nature. This seems ultimately to be a place where understanding nature, in so many varied aspects, is paramount; from the macro to the micro. Awareness and understanding is the work.

yes... I am seeing this...

Words do not express thoughts very well. They always become a little different immediately after they are expressed, a little distorted, a little foolish.

I feel this way every time I post.. :/

kila

 

[shijing]

Hi Parallax --

[Off topic note: of the two tribes, one is the Blackfoot (feet) and have a blood type which is 80+ % ‘A’ positive in a predominance of ‘O’ type which seems statistically startling; maybe shijing could comment on this as he has run a threat on blood types?]

So really quickly, here are the two global distributions of O and A (I don't list B because it basically doesn't exist amongst Native Americans except for the Eskimo-Aleuts in the extreme arctic north and northwest):

Distribution of type O

Distribution of type A

When you look at these two types in the Americas, type O is clearly dominant, and probably represents the blood type of the original American population if there was one. Type A is much less frequent, and found only in the northern two-thirds of North America -- what it looks like is that there was a separate population that came to the Americas much more recently, and entered North America (by whatever means) originally in the northwest, and possibly in the southeast. This newer type A population would have then proceeded to diffuse into the background type O population as time passed. If the Blackfoots are 80+% A-positive, then they would presumably be a fairly conservative example of the more recent group, and whatever the second tribe was would represent the lineage of the older, indigenous group.

 

[Voyageur]

Shijing,

Thank you for taking the time to place your thoughts and geographical indicator map of blood types here. And thanks also Kila for your reply. :)

Reading into this, the Bering Strait land bridge from Asia seems reasonable but connecting the dots, from what one can gather seems difficult and even contentious, even amongst anthropologists. It seems, if I can find the time to dig around, that the mythology of these peoples might be the best course direction to follow, unless data pops up that is useful and verifiable.

Curiously, while thinking about this last night, not really knowing where to go with it, an items that I read prior registered in a way that I thought to revisit and as such remembered this passage from a book by Jeffrey Blair Latta, a relatively obscure writer who wrote prior to his passing a book called ‘The Franklin Conspiracy’ which as many know, Franklin and so many ships disappeared and the evidence that exists, has been open to much speculation for the past few hundred years with writers and historians entering the fray of this subject – and it is an interesting one.

Not sure why this unconnected dot stood out; clearly Shijing’s map indicates a high Northern O type with a strand of A allele drifting in from below Alaska, however, decided to follow again; not that it is a related dot but it does speak to the Northern people both past and present. Also, remembered reading much of other authors of this/these events (Franklin expedition) describing those who investigated and it was curios too that during reconstruction investigations that the Arctic people (Inuit) were discussed and interviewed but generally discounted by many because of language, investigative feelings of their own supremacy in these matters or just acquainting them to the old stereotypes of indigenous people or they did not want them telling what they knew (mostly British). Some however knew differently, knew their words and genuineness, and knew that they would not lie as they understood things.

Latta seemed to do a wide spectrum re visitation of many researchers work and wrote the book in a interesting way that leaves more questions than answers but makes some interesting observations. Latta describes the Nordic tribes with some curios passages that will be noted here in regards to C transcripts; or so you can decide?

First, he describes in chapter 32 entitled ‘The Tunnit’; and strangely, he quotes Shakespeare before starting the chapter with this;

By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes.

Without too much noise, as I have to transcribe what is written, his pertinent descriptions of one such part are thus;

Among the Inuit, it was said that before their ancestors came to the Arctic, the land of the midnight sun was home to a race of giants, who the Inuit drove away in furious prolonged confrontation. So common and compelling are these stories that anthropologists have little doubt but that the Tunnit did exist. The only question is: who were they?

[Background]

Anthropologists theorize that the Tunnit legends are a remembrance of meetings between the Dorset culture and the Thule culture that replaced it 1000 years ago. The Thule culture directly preceded the present Inuit culture now inhabiting the Arctic, and the Thule are believed to have been ancestors to the Inuit. The Dorset, on the other hand, are thought to have been a separate race and culture which arose from Paleo-Eskimos who first entered the Arctic from Siberia approximately 4,000 years ago.

…For some time it was believed that the Dorset were actually a very small race, but this theory has fallen out of favour. “The idea,” wrote Fairley Mowat, “which has been proposed and maintained by recent authors, that the Dorset were a pygmy race, seems to have originated in part from the small size and delicate nature of their artefacts.” [As a side note recalled “pygmy race” intertwined in archaeological references to ancient Mexico sites, possibly Tulum?] The few bones that have been recovered do not suggest that the Dorset were much larger (if at all) than the Inuit. And yet, the Tunnit, who are said to represent the Dorset in stories of the Inuit, were clearly described as a race of giants. Are these legends merely an exaggerated remembrance of a race which, in reality, could only have been at most slightly larger than the Inuit?

Latta says further;

Stranger still, the Vikings also apparently encountered this giant race. As Farley Mowat wrote, “This is the foundation in the Floamanna Saga in connection with the story of Thorgisl Orrabeinsfstri, who was shipwrecked far north of Greenland Settlements, apparently in Baffin Island, about 997. Thorgisl met natives who were “giants.” We might suppose that the Inuit thought the Dorset were “giants”, but it becomes harder to imagine the Vikings thinking the same thing. But, if not Dorset, then who were these giant Tunnit?

This next section discusses the ‘Inukshuik’ who some will know and if not, it is symbolized of the coming Olympic's in Vancouver BC. Interesting here, one begins to see, much too popular belief, the Inukshuik, even as referenced to the Inuit, were not of their original making possibly.

Latta continues,

Through the eastern Arctic are found large, crudely constructed statues made of heavy stones. These stone figures are sometimes ten feet tall, and shaped to look human when seeing against the horizon. In Inuktituut, the language of the Inuit, these stone statues are called the “Inukshuit”, meaning “like man”. No one knows who constructed these statues, nor when. Their purpose likewise remains a mystery. Nonetheless, theories abound…The Thule, ancestral to the Inuit, are thought to be the most likely candidate to be Inukshuit-builders.

The Inuit , though, had a different story to tell. To them, the Inukshuit had been built at the time of the great conflict between the Tunnit and the Inuit’s Thule ancestors.

But the Inuit had other things to tell about the people who had come before. The Inuit ethnographer Peter Freuchen spent many years living among the Arctic people…his only equal was Knud Rasmussen… In his ‘Peter Freuchen’s Book of the Eskimos’, he recorded this story about the people who preceded the Inuit: “The fist people were much stronger than people now. Thus, they could with their magic make their houses fly, and a snow shovel could move by itself and shovel snow. People lived on earth, and when they wanted new nourishment they just sat in their houses and let them fly to new places. But one day a man complained over the noise the houses made when they flew through the air. And his words were powerful, and houses lost their ability to fly at that moment. And since then houses have been stationary .” Freuchen was also told: “At that time new snow would burn like fire, and often fire fell from the sky.

Latta goes along to discus by the words of another author Paul Fenimore Cooper, in the ‘Island of the Lost’.

Cooper:

A thousand years ago – according to legend – a race of giants, the Tunrit (Tunnit) came to the Island (King William Island)…these Tunrit were strange people, big, sturdy, yet stupid and easygoing…Their strength was great. One of them could single-handedly pick up a bear and throw it over his shoulder or pull a walrus from the sea…Often when in a rage, they struck their harpoons so forcibly against the rocks as to make a shower of stone splinters.

Latta says,

King William Island, it seemed, wasn’t big enough for the Inuit and Tunrit together.” Cooper he says continued: “It was the Tunrit’s amiability and stupidity that proved their downfall, at first they let the Eskimos live on the Island side by side with them in peace. But quarrels soon arose, and before long newcomers [Inuit] took to hunting the giants down like game.”

Latta then says, “Most remarkable is the manner in which the Inuit were said to have dispatched those Tunnit whom they caught.

According to Cooper,

These doomed ones were tracked until caught asleep; then the Eskimos quickly killed them by drilling holes in their foreheads.

This goes on to discuss how the Tunnit, for other reasons, drilled holes to treat sickness as in “trepanning”. But Latta, before finishing off and moving back to the Franklin story, which has strange connections of the like, says;

It is not especially unlikely that an Arctic race might have used this method on occasion to treat the sick. On the one hand, in conjunction with the story about Inuit killing Tunnit by drilling head-holes, we might ask ourselves whether both stories aren’t perhaps distorted memories of something else again.

The above discusses some obvious distinctions of People/Beings with different abilities, and some startling things were discussed by the Inuit of houses that fly and one individual /being was angry at the noise and made them stop. Also, this was inclusive of fire from the sky and giants who were killed in confusing ways. Not sure if links to these people/giants may also be founded in the Asian and Siberian histories?

If one should get an inkling; would recommend Latta’s book for a good overview of the Franklin mystery.

All for now – thanks.

 

[Kila]

The above discusses some obvious distinctions of People/Beings with different abilities, and some startling things were discussed by the Inuit of houses that fly and one individual /being was angry at the noise and made them stop. Also, this was inclusive of fire from the sky and giants who were killed in confusing ways. Not sure if links to these people/giants may also be founded in the Asian and Siberian histories?

If one should get an inkling; would recommend Latta’s book for a good overview of the Franklin mystery.

All for now – thanks.

Fascinating stuff, and completely new to me. I love when that happens. I am something of a collector of giant stories, more pieces, and while I was familiar with some of the Tunnit stories I had never heard the allusions to 'trepanning' or 'flying houses'.

Thanks so much

 

[Voyageur]

Kila,

Apologies as I did not answer your original question which was thus:

…I have not read Manly Hall though I did read a book called The Geography of Thought: How Asians and Westerner Think Differently...and Why. By Richard E. Nisbett. Would you suggest something by Hall along this line?

The book referred to and perhaps it is in others not read, but certainly not in his 1928 The Secret Teachings of all Ages, although the subtleties are within, is the book called The Phoenix in section Concentration and Retrospection. In synchronization with what Laura has reminded readers about playing around in affairs of supernatural phenomena, affairs outside their knowledge, Hall says;

Individuals with no understanding whatever of the fundamental principles of metaphysics are dappling promiscuously with the most dangerous of sciences, that of operative occultism.

Like Laura similarly, especially of the new-age western crowd , he says:

It is little short of a crime-in fact, it is criminal-to collect a group of people off the street to whom even the term occultism is a stranger, and then promise these same people that through some Asiatic technique they can acquire control of their physical forces of their lives in ten simple lessons, etc., etc.

And

…the fault lies in the attempt to storm the gates of heaven or top force upon oneself a state inharmonious with the qualifications of nature. The average individual is not fit to contemplate the profundity of universal mysteries, and when he attempts to do so he simply sprains his intellect. [Fulcanelli said something similar, although in the pretext of attempting the alchemical process and being ill prepared; but it seems similarly minded.] It is absurd for men and woman with no comprehension of the meaning of life about them to attempt to visualize or feel Nirvana.

When the uninformed goes into Samadhi, he is not likely to return, because not knowing how he got there he would not be able to find his way back. Metaphysical distances and intervals are very real, and it would be easier for a small child lost in the heart of Africa to find its way to civilisation than the unqualified student to return from those invisible worlds which are separated from this earth by immense intervals of quality and consciousness.

This is what was remembered originally in the prior post and referenced; here verbatim by Hall, but not in its entirety;

Our attitudes towards life create their invisible counterparts in subtle substances of the casual spheres, becoming powerful factors in occult development. The Orient and the Occident are not only separated from each other by vast oceans but by even wider interval of attitude. The East is metaphysical, the West is physical. The East is ascetic, the West is materialistic. The East has extraordinary powers of concentration and continuity, the West very little of either. The East has all eternity in which to accomplish, the West regards five minutes as a period long enough for almost any attainment.

Hall also describes a very poignant section called, as quoted above, Concentration and Retrospection and further in The Practice of Meditation directly relating to the above, Hall describes very well, OSIT, meditative practises, mistakes and states of mind – the three; false flame of egoism, false flame of possession, and false flame of desire;

…these three must die out, by enlightened reason before the human soul can escape from the labyrinthine sphere of its uncertainties….

:)

 

[ambienttransient]

Kind of late here and I don't have time for a really long comment, but I thought this was interesting.

I also remember thinking as a kid what if God(yahweh) is actually the devil, every tree by it's fruit and all that. When I didn't die by lightening strike I continued to consider that possibility.

I remember having that exact same thought as a child at one point. Of course, most of us here I think have a bad taste about many of the major religions. I grew up with Christianity, but I began to wonder early on why people would kill each other over religion when they were supposed to be about love and acceptance.

"The Devil is the part of God that God doesn't want you to know about."

 

[obyvatel]

"The Devil is the part of God that God doesn't want you to know about."

Hi Ambienttransient,
Are you quoting the above statement from some place? What is your understanding of the above statement?

 

[ambienttransient]

"The Devil is the part of God that God doesn't want you to know about."

Hi Ambienttransient,
Are you quoting the above statement from some place? What is your understanding of the above statement?

Hi Obyvatel. :) Those are my own words. I scribbled them into a notebook a long time ago, but they've always resurfaced in my memory for moments like these. My understanding of them is quite simple... If "God" is One, and All proceeds from and returns to that One, then the "Devil" must be a part of the "Master Plan". Someone must have let the snake slip in through the back door, right? Just a thought.

 

[ambienttransient]

"The Devil is the part of God that God doesn't want you to know about."

Hi Ambienttransient,
Are you quoting the above statement from some place? What is your understanding of the above statement?

Hi Obyvatel. :) Those are my own words. I scribbled them into a notebook a long time ago, but they've always resurfaced in my memory for moments like these. My understanding of them is quite simple... If "God" is One, and All proceeds from and returns to that One, then the "Devil" must be a part of the "Master Plan". Someone must have let the snake slip in through the back door, right? Just a thought.

I guess it might be more complex than just that. Maybe it's more like the representatives of "God" would like me to believe that "God" and the "Devil" are separate. These are just personified terms for positive and negative, perhaps?

 

[Tigersoap]

I guess it might be more complex than just that. Maybe it's more like the representatives of "God" would like me to believe that "God" and the "Devil" are separate. These are just personified terms for positive and negative, perhaps?

Hi Ambienttransient,

I think that you would find your answers and more by reading the wave books or here.

I quoted this from Laura (from this thread)

Try, if you can, to imagine Absolute Nothingness. This No-thing is intense and contractile AND... imbalanced. This imbalance leads to a reaction: the possibility of ALL. Thus, there is an initial split - No Thing and All Things. In the interaction between No Thing and ALL Things, the Cosmic Mind is "born" with all knowledge including knowledge of the state of NO knowledge or thing. Picture it as a yin-yang symbol if you like. It is in the interactions between these two states: No Thing/All Things, Negative/Positive, Female/Male, Off/On, that the worlds come into being.

A good book to read on this topic is William Chittick's "The Sufi Path of Knowledge," where he describes ibn al-Arabi's cosmology that begins with this postulate and describes the step-down levels of creation/manifestation.

When such books exist that talk about these things, and they mesh so well with the material from the Cs, I don't see much reason to be asking these questions. You can do the reading yourselves.

Good reading ;)

 

[ambienttransient]

I guess it might be more complex than just that. Maybe it's more like the representatives of "God" would like me to believe that "God" and the "Devil" are separate. These are just personified terms for positive and negative, perhaps?

Hi Ambienttransient,

I think that you would find your answers and more by reading the wave books or here.

I quoted this from Laura (from this thread)

Try, if you can, to imagine Absolute Nothingness. This No-thing is intense and contractile AND... imbalanced. This imbalance leads to a reaction: the possibility of ALL. Thus, there is an initial split - No Thing and All Things. In the interaction between No Thing and ALL Things, the Cosmic Mind is "born" with all knowledge including knowledge of the state of NO knowledge or thing. Picture it as a yin-yang symbol if you like. It is in the interactions between these two states: No Thing/All Things, Negative/Positive, Female/Male, Off/On, that the worlds come into being.

A good book to read on this topic is William Chittick's "The Sufi Path of Knowledge," where he describes ibn al-Arabi's cosmology that begins with this postulate and describes the step-down levels of creation/manifestation.

When such books exist that talk about these things, and they mesh so well with the material from the Cs, I don't see much reason to be asking these questions. You can do the reading yourselves.

Good reading ;)

Yes, I know. I was responding to Obyvatal... my questions were rhetorical. Thanks. :)

 

[obyvatel]

Thanks for your response. Regarding your original statement, I was thinking of the part which says "God does not want you to know about". You said your understanding was that
[quote author=ambienttransient]
Maybe it's more like the representatives of "God" would like me to believe that "God" and the "Devil" are separate.
[/quote]
That is an important distinction imo - mostly at our level we have little idea about what God does or does not want.

 

[ambienttransient]

Yes. :) According to what I've been reading in The Wave, "wanting" in and of itself is a STS trait... Like I said, it's just a little quip I came up with years ago to help myself understand something in the only terms I knew how.