Finding Faith?

[Buddy]

Re: Faith/Belief

[quote author=Richard]
I would be extremely grateful for any help or suggestions that would enable me to fully participate in the entire Cassiopaean experience through getting rid of this block. If there's anything I believe is important, it is this. But of course, now I'm really being STS [frowny face][/quote]

What I'm getting is that you may be taking yourself and what you think a bit too seriously. Lighten up a bit. :)

Compare what you said:

[quote author=Richard]
I'm having trouble with the breathing and meditation. I read all the effects it has on everyone and I wonder why I seem to be completely neutral to any benefit.[/quote]

...with that C's quote:

Remember, when one has been indoctrinated by religion, culture and/or science, they are predisposed to view all things in the sense of the measureable physical reality exclusively.

What do you see? Assumptions that you have the power to "stop and measure reality" in order to determine "effect" and related "affect"? Assumptions that your experience with EE must somehow be immediately perceived as similar to everyone else's and that if it's not, it's a 'bad thing'? Assumptions that those people who have been doing EE for a long time with so far undramatic results don't count as data to be considered in this context? Can you think of any more?

Look at this C's quote again:

A: Correct manner involves honesty and understanding that one has complete faith and awareness of the activities pursued. In other words, when one performs an act which they proclaim to be having a desired result, and they do not have faith in their own actions as, in fact, producing the desired result, then the effort will collapse because of their lack of faith. Whereas when one has complete faith and multi-density understanding, their activities are indeed truth and useful as prescribed and this is the correct way to pursue them.

From my perspective, the C's are non-spoon feeding the idea that our implicit counter-beliefs can block new beliefs from sinking deeply enough to be effective. It's like the subject in that hypnosis experiment that couldn't be made to believe a person could disappear in front of his eyes because beliefs that reside in his implicit model of the world/universe, oppose the suggestion; essentially saying it can't be done. So that existing, deeper belief has dibs on your perceptions.

There is also another possible way of understanding the above quote. For example, the intellectual center has the power to fool itself into believing it believes something, because the intellectual center believes in its own version of reality and doesn't necessarily need visceral evidence to support its thinking process and doesn't necessarily refrain from distorting visceral evidence in order to prove its point, should such a distortion be needed.

If you like the idea, and benefit (in any way at all) from the practice, of "breathing and meditation", then think of it in terms of an experiment and just keep doing it as if nothing may ever happen (removes 'anticipation'?). I understand the need for relatively immediate positive re-enforcing feedback, but there's also a role for perseverance, patience and forbearance in our Work. :)

 

[Chopper]

Re: Faith/Belief

Hello Richard , do some reading on Gurdjieff's saying/teaching's on Attention might help you get a grip on it...

Choices are all one has any control what so ever over , one choose's 100%.
one can't only choose to believe 99% of something .... My friend you either believe in something or you don't .

Heres one of my faves...

When You Have Seen Your
Two Natures, That Day, In Yourself,
The Truth Will Be Born.

Gurdjieff, "The First Initiation"

 

[Denis]

Re: Faith/Belief

Hey Richard.

I really believe that there is a strong distinction between faith on the one hand, and belief on the other.
Belief is really wishing, while faith is openness, to truth, to reality whatever it may turn out to be. To have faith is to trust yourself in the process (of learning and discovering) without anticipating anything. I guess one has to release the ego in order to achieve that state of being and this is a process cos- looking at it from my perspective based on my own experience and on observing other people's experiences- it is certainly not an event, like some sort of moment of "clarity" when one suddenly feels very enlightened and knowledgeable (that's just emotional high that can fool anyone if one chooses to identify with that feeling). And to believe is to have an idea about how things should be. OSIT

Here's what Alan Watts had to say on this subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?hl=hr&v=rIOe_zLrpwo

 

[SeekinTruth]

Re: Faith/Belief

Yes, there's a difference between faith and belief. Faith in the context of the Work here is faith in yourself, that you can learn, grow, be more than you are today, etc. The only thing I have faith in outside of myself is the Universe -- that it is as it should be and knows what it's doing and can take care of itself. Oh, also I have faith in this network because of my observations and experiences that it can help anyone with the sincerity (and efforts) to make progress.

I've been doing the EE from when it was first released -- summer 2009. And I haven't had any "dramatic" events. But right from the beginning I noticed how much calmer, and at the same time, more alert I was. Stress was greatly reduced. I had much less obsessive or compulsive thoughts or impulses and behaviors, etc. I haven't had a major, drastic emotional release. Just gentle, slow and steady improvements in many ways and many areas of my life.

EE works on many different levels.

 

[SoCurious]

Re: Faith/Belief

Hi Everyone,

Thank you all so much for the thoughtful feedback.

Probably the most important thing is to not anticipate, however this is easier said than done. The EE site, the threads on EE and the C's all create anticipation and expectation. Without the anticipation of something beneficial happening to someone, somewhere, sometime, none of us would be doing EE.

It's pretty much like a promise made to someone that if he could stand on his head for 10 years the world would stop making war. After 10 years he stands up just in time to watch the US set the Middle East ablaze. "oops....I'm so gullible.....conned again"

I have for a long time been perplexed at how thoroughly we've conned since the beginning of our recorded history. We accepted gold as being valuable even though it can't be eaten or turned into clothing or used for anything practical at the time. We're told it was valuable to the Annanuki (so they could apparently shield their planet), so perhaps that's why it became valuable to us. That's like saying plankton is valuable to whales so should be valuable to cats. Deciding that gold was valuable in and of itself was the first scam designed for purposes of control over others. The king owned the mines thus owning the economy.

The money scam got more sophisticated when the dollar was substituted for gold. Now an agency decides how much the world's money is worth. We have forgotten that money should be a measure and have given it value in and of itself. Our attitudes, morals, way of life are dictated by money. We can't help someone if we can't afford it. And all because we believe the lie that life is about money. Nothing could be further from the truth. We don't need money at all. We just need each other.

I saw the scam of religion many many years ago. How religions co-opted our spiritual nature, replacing it with falsehood and illusion, all to gain control of the populace. I've always believed that finding God isn't important. What is important is the search. In this regard I completely understand the C's. "It's all lessons". I watch as "christian" nations whose primary commandments are "Though shalt not kill" go out and bomb and kill daily, whose "love of neighbour" means locking them up. Nations who break the moral and religious foundations upon which they were built second by second, minute by minute. I understand it's all a lie.

I watch as a massive advertising industry sells us nonsense, how fashion is dictated, how the starving are ignored and left to die, how the earth is raped and pillaged, how we fill our heads with crap. How we are controlled and are to all intents and purposes, slaves. Everywhere I look I see lie after lie after lie.

Every day I find less and less reason for faith and belief, even though I contradict myself by believing people are good until proven otherwise.

I choose to observe, test, validate, in an effort to find the truth. I find it difficult to place my full trust in anything.

A long time ago I stopped expecting something in return for gifting. I give and that's that. No anticipation or expectation that it will be reciprocated. I prefer it this way. No anticipation, no expectation, no disappointment or wasted energy.

Yet when I do something like EE, where I have read of others' experiences, where I have read of the benefits, I do anticipate, I do expect. How can I verify the efficacy of the exercise without observable results? Do I place my faith in empty promises yet again?

The C's have fascinated me more than I can express. Everything seems to make sense, yet I have no means to verify what they say. I don't have the scientific genius to take their clues and find the UFT like Ark can, I don't have the benefit of direct experience with their sessions and following their clues with Laura's knack of finding the leads and connecting the dots. I must take all of this on faith. No matter how fervently STS I am in my desire to see every human move safely to STO 4D, it remains wish rather than belief.

Without some verification faith is a difficult thing and despair sets in rapidly.

Yet you'll be pleased to know I am working extremely hard on all your suggestions and trying to absorb the lessons from the C's. I can only hope I get there, that humanity is saved and that perhaps I helped.

Blocks? Probably more than I can guess at.

Ah. SeekingTruth - your reply came in while I was typing this.

I've been doing the EE from when it was first released -- summer 2009. And I haven't had any "dramatic" events. But right from the beginning I noticed how much calmer, and at the same time, more alert I was. Stress was greatly reduced. I had much less obsessive or compulsive thoughts or impulses and behaviors, etc. I haven't had a major, drastic emotional release. Just gentle, slow and steady improvements in many ways and many areas of my life.

I'd be more than satisfied with that :)

Thank you all again.

 

[mada85]

Re: Faith/Belief

I've been doing the EE from when it was first released -- summer 2009. And I haven't had any "dramatic" events. But right from the beginning I noticed how much calmer, and at the same time, more alert I was. Stress was greatly reduced. I had much less obsessive or compulsive thoughts or impulses and behaviors, etc. I haven't had a major, drastic emotional release. Just gentle, slow and steady improvements in many ways and many areas of my life.

I'd be more than satisfied with that :)

I've had pretty much the same experience as ST describes above. Even just reciting the POTS to myself as I was falling asleep was enough to make significant changes in my mental attitude and life, and adding daily pipe breathing and twice-weekly EE sessions (currently without the beatha section) builds on those changes, and the beneficial result is cumulative and ongoing. The results for me have been reduced stress, a calmer mood, an increased interest in life and people, and a greater ability to see people (and that's the short list!).

Can you approach your EE practice with an experimental attitude? Proceed as a scientist – there's no need at all for belief, or even faith, just an open-minded attitude of experiment. And slowly, as you observe beneficial results in yourself, faith can develop. Note that faith and belief are different. Faith is akin to trust, OSIT, and grows out of observations and realisations that it is possible to do things that move in a positive direction. And as we move more in this direction, we can trust ourselves and the universe - have faith in ourselves and the universe – that we are on the right track. But it's best to start with an experimental attitude. No hankering for or anticipating results – just do the program and see what happens. Keeping a diary of results may help you to keep an eye on your progress.

Hope this helps :)

 

[SoCurious]

Re: Faith/Belief

Hope this helps :)

Yes, indeed it does. Many thanks Endymion.

 

[Denis]

Re: Faith/Belief

Hello Richard.

I would also advise you to be gentle with yourself and to go easy, one step at a time. Idk who said this, but this is my understanding as well: He who goes slow goes far. In Ram Dass's words: We're all just walking each other home. I hope this helps. ;)

 

[SeekinTruth]

Re: Faith/Belief

I've been doing the EE from when it was first released -- summer 2009. And I haven't had any "dramatic" events. But right from the beginning I noticed how much calmer, and at the same time, more alert I was. Stress was greatly reduced. I had much less obsessive or compulsive thoughts or impulses and behaviors, etc. I haven't had a major, drastic emotional release. Just gentle, slow and steady improvements in many ways and many areas of my life.

I'd be more than satisfied with that :)

I've had pretty much the same experience as ST describes above. Even just reciting the POTS to myself as I was falling asleep was enough to make significant changes in my mental attitude and life, and adding daily pipe breathing and twice-weekly EE sessions (currently without the beatha section) builds on those changes, and the beneficial result is cumulative and ongoing. The results for me have been reduced stress, a calmer mood, an increased interest in life and people, and a greater ability to see people (and that's the short list!).

Can you approach your EE practice with an experimental attitude? Proceed as a scientist – there's no need at all for belief, or even faith, just an open-minded attitude of experiment. And slowly, as you observe beneficial results in yourself, faith can develop. Note that faith and belief are different. Faith is akin to trust, OSIT, and grows out of observations and realisations that it is possible to do things that move in a positive direction. And as we move more in this direction, we can trust ourselves and the universe - have faith in ourselves and the universe – that we are on the right track. But it's best to start with an experimental attitude. No hankering for or anticipating results – just do the program and see what happens. Keeping a diary of results may help you to keep an eye on your progress.

Hope this helps :)

First, I agree that the beneficial results of EE are cumulative and ongoing. Then, I also agree, and would underline, an experimental approach to deal with anticipation and expectation (and by extension "lack of faith"). That's how many of us, myself included, approached EE (and many other things like diet). Experimenting should be undertaken with an open attitude and no expectations (and, of course, care and caution). And, finally, yes, I think faith IS akin to trust. And the trust in the observations and realizations that things COULD move in a positive direction, that we can learn and grow and overcome many limitations grows: and Voila! Faith.

Laura has written: "Belief is hanging on to a rock. Faith is learning how to swim." :)

 

[mada85]

Re: Faith/Belief

Hello Richard.

I would also advise you to be gentle with yourself and to go easy, one step at a time. Idk who said this, but this is my understanding as well: He who goes slow goes far. In Ram Dass's words: We're all just walking each other home. I hope this helps. ;)

I use it in my forum signature - it's a quote from G I Gurdjieff.:)

 

[Laura]

Re: Faith/Belief

For me, it's the science and I've done everything, always, as an experiment with a skeptical attitude, even meditation.

For you, I would suggest reading Porges' "Polyvagal Theory" and "Strangers to Ourselves" to better understand the science behind the program.

I'm one of those people who, the more and better I understand something, the more and better I enjoy/appreciate it. I know that some people want "magic", but that doesn't work for me; maybe you are the same?

 

[SoCurious]

Is 16 months too long to pick up a conversation?

Perhaps the key to understanding faith and belief is context?

Back when I was a grasshopper, my sensei pointed to a mountain and said "Grasshopper, look at that mountain. It is big is it not?" I nodded, for sure that was a big mountain!

Then he said "With just one gesture you can make it disappear or move to where you will have it. This is your task."

I gulped, the enormity of the task! Yet he made it sound like such a trivial matter. Throughout my life Sensei had never lied to me, had always spoken the full truth, never softening it or avoiding it. I trusted him with my life. I believed in him, I had full Faith that what said was true.

For 60 years I travelled the world, always searching, looking for clues, chasing hints, putting ideas together, discarding most as I gained new knowledge, constantly distilling for purity. And at last I stood before the mountain in full understanding of what needed to be done.

I gathered myself, believing all I knew to be true and accurate and in full faith negligently waved the mountain away. I wasn't surprised. And no, I can't tell you the gesture.



In this story Faith is the actualizing principle based upon the mechanics of belief.

Can one have Faith without first having Belief? I trust the C's are honest, I believe the Wave is coming, therefore I can have Faith that what they say is true.

As I don't know what form it will take or when exactly it will arrive I cannot anticipate exactly the effect. But I still anticipate its arrival, I can't do otherwise. Perhaps there is some semantic obviousness I'm missing? I certainly hope so.



ps. sup as in super/supra - "over/above"
sub as in subway, submission - "under/below"

 

[SoCurious]

Re: Faith/Belief

I'm one of those people who, the more and better I understand something, the more and better I enjoy/appreciate it. I know that some people want "magic", but that doesn't work for me; maybe you are the same?

Ya Betcha!

I can't fix a clock unless I understand its mechanism fully (although I could luck out). I've always understood that every action, every word, every breath has a consequence. We can say something that is innocuous to us but that leads to devastation of self-image or self-worth by the recipient. We can say things in jest that hurt the person we say it to.

I think we have a huge responsibility to understand everything about whatever we profess to offer advice on. Unqualified opinion can have disastrous results.

And yes, understanding leads to appreciation/enjoyment and the ability to move in the right direction from the solid base you've established. As a schoolboy I really only attended school to play sport, although I loved reading and couldn't put down anything that had some print on it. It was only in my 20's that the love of learning caught hold of me. I rue the wasted time! Actually, I was curious about things other than school knowledge. Lobsang Rampa was my friend at age 12 as was the Colliers Encyclopedia. I suppose esoteric subjects grabbed me hardest.

I'm not normally a waffler......what's going on? hahahaha.

Thank you so much for the book recommendations. I'll be looking into them immediately, but not sooner.

 

[mada85]

Can one have Faith without first having Belief? I trust the C's are honest, I believe the Wave is coming, therefore I can have Faith that what they say is true.

Yes. In fact, I would say that one can only have faith to the extent that one doesn't have a priori belief.

Belief is a condition where one assumes that something is true, simply and usually because one feels good about it. That is to say, that the thing that one believes activates 'feel good' chemicals in the brain and body, often because this thing resonates in some way with childhood programs about what is 'good'. Belief is an entirely subjective phenomenon. In fact one could say that belief is a pathological condition. Belief certainly leads to all sorts of pathological behaviour.

Feeling good about something then reinforces the mental patterns which affirm the belief that the thing is true, which releases more 'feel good' chemicals – it's really a vicious circle, and getting out of it takes hard and prolonged work. We see every day how challenges to peoples' beliefs can evoke all sorts of self-justified rage and violence. We can also see from the history of wars and religions that psychopathic leaders have always manipulated people to believe certain things. People are then ruthlessly manipulated by these same so-called leaders, who exploit for their own benefit the very belief systems they have inculcated in the population.

Why do you believe the Wave is coming? In an infinite universe, it's certainly a possibility that something like the hypothesised Wave exists, but basing your faith in the Cs on your subjective belief about what they say, does not necessarily mean that what they say is true. Laura has tested and tested and retested everything the Cs said to her – to the extent that what they say is testable - and that is how faith grows.

Faith grows out of the working and activation of System 2 in our minds, whereas subjective belief is a function of System 1. System 2, unfortunately, is lazy, and so belief becomes a default option for the mental machine. Using System 2 to check on the assumptions of System 1, and to make testable hypotheses – as in experimenting with EE, for example – can lead to faith. But this faith grows out of careful observation of the results of experimentation.

I think also that faith is only granted to persons of a certain genetic/soul composition. Can a psychopath or other psychologically deviant types have faith? I don't think they can. What they have is a kind of robotic execution of predatory activities. They don't have a choice, and they can never be free enough to grow faith.

As I don't know what form it will take or when exactly it will arrive I cannot anticipate exactly the effect. But I still anticipate its arrival, I can't do otherwise. Perhaps there is some semantic obviousness I'm missing? I certainly hope so.

Why try to anticipate? We have no firm scientific proof that the Wave is coming, although we can see that things are 'heating up' on planet Earth – but that could have many causes, the electromagnetic interaction of the Earth with cosmic bodies entering the solar system being one such possible cause.

 

[Denis]

Re: Faith/Belief

Hello Richard.

I would also advise you to be gentle with yourself and to go easy, one step at a time. Idk who said this, but this is my understanding as well: He who goes slow goes far. In Ram Dass's words: We're all just walking each other home. I hope this helps. ;)

I use it in my forum signature - it's a quote from G I Gurdjieff.:)

Hey Endymion, thanks for letting me know the origin of the quote. Maybe I've noticed it on your forum signature, but I missed to read who's the author (this quote sooo reminds me of Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching teachings). Anyhow, it really does apply to one's personal growth.

Long live the school! ;D