Finding Faith?

[SoCurious]

Can one have Faith without first having Belief? I trust the C's are honest, I believe the Wave is coming, therefore I can have Faith that what they say is true.

Please understand the above is in relation to what I wrote before it, not a statement of fact.

When it comes to anticipation, it is not a case of trying to anticipate, rather it is a case of trying not to anticipate. When you foresee an event occurring, such as the imminent war in Iran, how do you divorce anticipation from the belief it's going to happen? It is a difficult idea to come to terms with that a predicted event, wished for or not, can be unanticipated.

Faith in a belief system that predicts events surely is always accompanied by anticipation if one feels that such predictions are close to hand?

I understand the C's are saying we should continue with our day to day lives instead of sitting around expecting the wave to strike at any moment as this expectation interferes somehow with the "mechanics" of the process. What I find difficult to comprehend is that it is possible to have faith that an event will occur without having any anticipation that it will.

Yes. In fact, I would say that one can only have faith to the extent that one doesn't have a priori belief.

I understand where you're coming from with this. However, lets take an example. A scientist who follows the scientific method will learn to trust the system if it never lets him down. He will come to believe in it and consequently will have faith in certain outcomes based on his belief. He could never have faith without first having a belief in the method.

Belief is an entirely subjective phenomenon

I'm not entirely sure about this. If I ask you if you believe in UFO's and you say yes, because you've actually seen them, is this subjective? If you asked me and I said yes because there is so much circumstantial evidence, then I agree, it would be subjective even if entirely reasonable.

Belief certainly leads to all sorts of pathological behaviour

Yes! Very often. But perhaps not always?

We understand that an experiment can be influenced by the mere observation of the experimenter. Is it photons from our eyes that strike an object being observed? Do these particles carry a part of your mind with them influencing in a way that is consistent with your mind? If a robot were to "observe" the experiment with nobody observing the robot would the experiment succeed or have the same outcome? Is there anything we can do to not influence things around us, including the future? I don't think so.

We are fortunately not robots in that sense of the word (Gurdjieff just whispered in my ear - "stop talking nonsense - we are"). I cannot imagine us being totally robotic, without residue of belief, faith without anticipation, doubt, in however small a measure. I think this is part of what it means to be human.

What an interesting universe!

 

[Al Today]

[...]
What I find difficult to comprehend is that it is possible to have faith that an event will occur without having any anticipation that it will.
[...]

There are numerous potential futures. When an event occurs within the "now", the "new" direction slides us into one previous potential and open doors to even new possibilities for the future. The Cs say the future is open. Many things can happen and methinks 'tis good to be aware of the possibilities. I believe of possibilities, but have no desire of a specific outcome. Wait & See has been stated.

Anticipation, to me, has roots in a desired outcome. I realize there is much more, and I still think when one anticipates, one desires. And the STS desire is what should be recognized...

[...]
When you foresee an event occurring, such as the imminent war in Iran, how do you divorce anticipation from the belief it's going to happen?
[...]

Because I do not "know" that is going to happen. We may indeed be on that road to war. I think the word foresee may be changed to "being aware of possibilities". To foresee perhaps can be understood to "know" in advance. I for one do not know without a doubt what is going to happen. But... Being aware of possibilities helps one understand how and why things may be.

 

[SoCurious]

Because I do not "know" that is going to happen. We may indeed be on that road to war.

None of us can "know" with 100% certainty but it disingenuous to dismiss the most likely event to occur. It is entirely possible for the Prez to marry the Ayatollah. Not likely but possible. The signs of the times point in one direction. War. War is the plan but "all the best laid plans of mice and men" can turn to naught.

Everything is possible, and almost everything can be anticipated to a degree of likelihood. I anticipate disagreement on this issue but I do not desire it.

 

[Laura]

The point is not to have faith that anything particular will happen, but just that that the Universe knows it's business and will do what is best for the situation if YOU are doing YOUR best for the Universe!

 

[Al Today]

[...]
Everything is possible, and almost everything can be anticipated to a degree of likelihood. I anticipate disagreement on this issue but I do not desire it.

The only definition below I do not see indulgence in wishful thinking is: "prepare for".

Definitions of 'anticipate' [an-tis-uh-peyt]
Dictionary.com - (Showing 1 definitions)
(transitive verb)
1. to expect and prepare for
2. to look forward to
3. to forestall

[...]
disingenuous to dismiss the most likely event to occur.
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I do not think I implied to ignore the current events, nor was I being insincere of the possibilities of war. This was not my intention. I was merely attempting to further define the emotional act of anticipation.