Free Energy from freezing water (ice expansion) - Am I nuts? What am I missing?

[Cosmos]

Generally speaking (not having looked into it very deeply) I would say that there is a good chance that you are missing something which could explain "the mystery". On another note: I was dabbling with a number of "free energy" ideas quite some time ago too and soon realized that much if not all of it is a big waste of time, that I personally can't effort any further. Every time I thought I might have found it or something interesting, I realized that it is either a scam or that I wasn't thinking things trough properly myself. So personally speaking, I came to the conclusion that my time and energy is much better spend elsewhere.

 

[Woodsman]

Sigh. You are forgetting that the nuclear fuel in a nuclear reactor did not just spring into existence. All elements heavier than iron were created in a supernova. That process stored the energy of the explosion in the creation of the element.

Again, you have to read the three laws. This requires a closed system. A nuclear reactor is not a closed system. It has uranium as an input. When you explained the closed system to include the uranium, you discover that, sure enough, the three laws still apply.

Now is it conceivable that Einstein's constant represents the vacuum energy and that it is possible to engineer this energy and therefore extract what seems to be "free" energy? possibly. This has been a holy grail for some time, but we do not have sufficient understanding to determine if the vacuum energy exists, let alone how to engineer its use.

I'd encourage you to re-read my last post. You'll see that I agree with you. -With the qualification that I was trying to point out that one needs to recognize that in too quickly applying the assumptions of energy conservation one can overlook energy input from secondary unexpected exotic sources, such as nuclear fission.

The question, to repeat myself a third or fourth time, is this...

Is the pipe-bursting energy witnessed with ice expansion derived from standard ambient heat sources, or somewhere more exotic?

The amount of energy observed would, from what I can see, suggest that the latter is a possibility.

 

[Woodsman]

Generally speaking (not having looked into it very deeply) I would say that there is a good chance that you are missing something which could explain "the mystery". On another note: I was dabbling with a number of "free energy" ideas quite some time ago too and soon realized that much if not all of it is a big waste of time, that I personally can't effort any further. Every time I thought I might have found it or something interesting, I realized that it is either a scam or that I wasn't thinking things trough properly myself. So personally speaking, I came to the conclusion that my time and energy is much better spend elsewhere.

Indeed. You may well be right, but it doesn't appear obvious to me.

Years ago for me, the exercise of working out why magnet wheels and such can't perpetually spin was enlightening. For some reason, it was hard to conceptualize.., until it wasn't. Certain things become clear.

Free Energy enthusiasts are charmed by the tactile appeal of a magnet because the force is very apparent. "Surely something can be done to harness this!"

Simply speaking, the problem comes down to the fact that you can't switch off a magnet.

Force exerted by water freezing, however, does have a switch. It's either frozen or not frozen. The effect starts upon freezing and then stops when fully crystalized.

The power required to drive the switch (heating/cooling) seems unrelated to the power exerted by the expansion effect.

And we're talking about a lot of power.

So exactly how much force is the ice capable of exerting? Well, people have been trying to work this out for a long time. In 1784 and 1785, one Major Edward Williams took advantage of the weather in Quebec and repeatedly tried and failed to find a method of containing ice. Williams at first tried to seal water inside of artillery shells, the cast iron plugs of which were launched 475 feet at an astonishing 20 feet per second when the pressure become too great. Unperturbed, Williams then took to anchoring the plugs in place using hooks, only for the shells to split in two.

In another experiment, an attempt was made to fill cannons made of one inch thick cast iron with water only for them too to split when it was frozen. Academics in Florence later tried to fill a ball made of one inch thick brass with water only for that too to crack when it was frozen. They later worked out that the force required to do so clocked in at around 27,720 pounds.

Link

Can such effects be caused by the energies required to freeze an ice cube?

I don't know.

If you unplugged your freezer and spent the electricity instead on one of those jaws of life units, would it be enough to create the same effect?

Efficiencies notwithstanding, it takes only 11 watts to drop a cubic inch of water from 1 degree Celsius to 0 and thus trigger the effect.

Anyway.., I can understand why this may not seem like a good use of one's time and attention, but I'm currently curious. I like solving problems of this sort; it keeps the brain active.

Given my normal patterns, I'll likely grow tired of the subject in another day or two and forget about it until it comes up again, at which point I will be able to move forward with the existing scraps of knowledge obtained now and add to them until I am, one day, perhaps able to offer a definitive answer.

I'm happy to have a visceral, 'crystalized' understanding of why magnetism can't be harnessed in a perpetual motion machine. I can explain it with confidence and clarity -without having to make cryptic appeals to authority. That took time as well, but I'm glad I made the effort, and it was easy effort because it fit my personality. There's value in these sorts of exercises for people who such exercises fit with.

 

[Nathancat7]

So I was watching this video about the power of expanding ice; the "Action Lab" guy sealed water in a metal pipe and froze it. The expanding ice caused the pipe to explode. It was a cool video:

Water to Ice expansion creates MASSIVE pressure, like crush a submarine 100x over sort of pressure.

It set me to thinking; "Well.., geez! That's an awful lot of energy. Where does it come from?"

So I did some novice calculations (which I've written in average-joe English steps below so if you follow along you will understand rather than glaze over as with most scientific papers. I encourage you to do so in order for my thoughts to have meaning)...

-Pounds of pressure per square inch exerted by expanding ice: 43,511 lbs (19,736 Kg)​

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-1 inch = 2.54 cm (Converting to metric)​

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-Energy needed to change 1 kg of water by 1 degree Celsius = 4200 joules (To melt or to freeze, you need to move that much energy.)​

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-Weight of 2.54 cubic cm of water = 0.00254 Kg​

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(runs the math)​

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-2.54 cubic cm requires 10.67 joules to freeze from 1 degree Celcius to 0.​

​

(runs more math)​

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-Force exerted by the expansion of 2.54 cubic cm of water freezing to ice = 19,736.26 Kg pressure​

​

-Distance traveled (You need to know distance and time traveled to make use of work/force calculations.)​

ice grows by about 9 percent from liquid = 2.8 mm (rough estimate)​

​

-Energy required to lift 19736.26 Kg over 2.8 mm = 542 joules​

​

Soooo... While it takes about 11 joules of energy to change water 1 degree C between liquid and frozen, doing so generates 542 joules of energy.

Melting would take another 11 joules of energy, which would drop the weight, releasing the potential energy.

Rinse & repeat.

Now.., engineering complexities aside.., (it takes some work to visualize mechanisms which could aim and capture that energy in a useful form) that seems like an absolutely massive return on energy investment. Completely out of proportion.

Is this an example of Free Energy? Extreme thermodynamic disobeyence?

Why have I never heard about this before? You'd think the magnet wheel people would be all over it.

What am I missing?

Or...

Is this an example of genuine free energy? -Which we have all apparently missed for some reason?

Sorry, not trying to be silly
Highly flexible semi-permiable membranes could expand the press the pressure to steam.
When equilibrium is reached some water is also absorbed back into.

 

[Nathancat7]

I haven't read the whole thread because at work.
Someone mentioned cold doesn't exist necessarily.
So I thought, maybe it's an aspect of non- being, experienced as cold in 3d service TS, keenly in short wave cycle.

 

[rs]

I'd encourage you to re-read my last post. You'll see that I agree with you. -With the qualification that I was trying to point out that one needs to recognize that in too quickly applying the assumptions of energy conservation one can overlook energy input from secondary unexpected exotic sources, such as nuclear fission.

The question, to repeat myself a third or fourth time, is this...

Is the pipe-bursting energy witnessed with ice expansion derived from standard ambient heat sources, or somewhere more exotic?

The amount of energy observed would, from what I can see, suggest that the latter is a possibility.

"Secondary unexpected exotic sources"? WTH? All of the energy stored in long life radioactive elements was created in an instant inside a supernova, storing the energy of a massive and sudden conversion of mass/energy into element creation. Boom. Literally. Therefore it is, by definition, not exotic. Nor secondary.

"Is the pipe-bursting energy witnessed with ice expansion derived from standard ambient heat sources, or somewhere more exotic?"
Huh? Exotic? Three laws. Carnot efficiency limit. There is no exotic. If you have free energy it is because you did not take something being input to the system into account. Boom.

I challenge you to actually find exotic sources of energy in this scenario - because there isn't any. The energy of expansion comes from the energy of solidification. The equation balances exactly.

 

[Inquorate]

There's no free lunch, but sometimes you can get mother nature to butter your bread for you.

 

[Woodsman]

"Secondary unexpected exotic sources"? WTH? All of the energy stored in long life radioactive elements was created in an instant inside a supernova, storing the energy of a massive and sudden conversion of mass/energy into element creation. Boom. Literally. Therefore it is, by definition, not exotic. Nor secondary.

"Is the pipe-bursting energy witnessed with ice expansion derived from standard ambient heat sources, or somewhere more exotic?"
Huh? Exotic? Three laws. Carnot efficiency limit. There is no exotic. If you have free energy it is because you did not take something being input to the system into account. Boom.

I challenge you to actually find exotic sources of energy in this scenario - because there isn't any. The energy of expansion comes from the energy of solidification. The equation balances exactly.

Oh, stop it.

You know exactly what I mean. Stop trying to 'win'.

There's a reason the world erupted in excitement when Einstein made his massive contribution to particle physics.

Prior to that, the only energy sources we understood as a billions-strong species involved chemical reactions and potential energy in the form of heavy things moving down gradients, and I suppose mechanical energy stored in things like springs.

Learning how to split or fuse atoms was considered extremely exotic.

Get it? Of course you do.

"The energy of expansion comes from the energy of solidification"

Obviously. But that's not actually saying anything new or useful.

I'm asking about the nature of the mechanism itself.

 

[Woodsman]

I think I've solved this (self-imposed) puzzle.

Turns out that warming ice, but not melting it, isn't very energy expensive at all. Just a few joules are needed, like 10 or so, to take an ice cube from -5 degrees to -4 Celsius. I figured this energy curve was constant across the freezing/melting point, which was partly why I thought there was something extraordinary going on. Turns out however...

To cross the line into thawing, (or in direct converse, to freezing), for the same amount of water, well THAT takes four or five hundred joules of energy!

-See, what's going on is that the atomic attraction which pulls molecules into crystal latices and holds them there needs to be overcome when melting so that H20 molecules can release themselves and take on a fluid form.

So, that's where the extra energy was hiding, -which was relatively easy to do given the novice calculations in my original post.

When you scale things up to, say, a big block of ice, many thousands of joules of energy are stored and released by crossing over that freeze/melt point. -Energy, presumably sufficient, to power a "jaws of life" kind of action.

-Now that's also sloppy math; I did some horse power and fuel calculations to try to get a grasp on what a power clamp needs to operate, but from a first look, it all seems to be within the same ball park.

So I'm going to pop this into the "Probably Solved" pile.

I appreciate everybody's indulgence while I worked through this idea. Thanks folks! It's these kinds of explorations which 'crystalize' knowledge and confer a feeling of authority and confidence if one needs to talk about them later. Useful stuff!

Cheers!

 

[Pat]

I think I've solved this (self-imposed) puzzle.

Turns out that warming ice, but not melting it, isn't very energy expensive at all. Just a few joules are needed, like 10 or so, to take an ice cube from -5 degrees to -4 Celsius. I figured this energy curve was constant across the freezing/melting point, which was partly why I thought there was something extraordinary going on. Turns out however...

To cross the line into thawing, (or in direct converse, to freezing), for the same amount of water, well THAT takes four or five hundred joules of energy!

-See, what's going on is that the atomic attraction which pulls molecules into crystal latices and holds them there needs to be overcome when melting so that H20 molecules can release themselves and take on a fluid form.

So, that's where the extra energy was hiding, -which was relatively easy to do given the novice calculations in my original post.

When you scale things up to, say, a big block of ice, many thousands of joules of energy are stored and released by crossing over that freeze/melt point. -Energy, presumably sufficient, to power a "jaws of life" kind of action.

-Now that's also sloppy math; I did some horse power and fuel calculations to try to get a grasp on what a power clamp needs to operate, but from a first look, it all seems to be within the same ball park.

So I'm going to pop this into the "Probably Solved" pile.

I appreciate everybody's indulgence while I worked through this idea. Thanks folks! It's these kinds of explorations which 'crystalize' knowledge and confer a feeling of authority and confidence if one needs to talk about them later. Useful stuff!

Cheers!

Well done, I like the spirit very much!