Free will and Children

[trendsetter37]

How far do we go in letting children discover for themselves that sometimes diet affects them very negatively. Especially when the school systems (of america) pumps them full of the unmentionables on a weekly basis, mostly in the forms of ice cream and pizza parties. At home our daughter eats very well...to a certain extent. Sometimes she "craves things that she eats at school or at her father's house such as fried apple pies and processed sugars, to which I might add that she notices discomfort, but doesn't like to associate those stomach pains to the food eaten prior.

What do we do in the spirit of being as sto as possible in this situation?

If this needs to be in the diet thread fill free mods, but I would also like to know in general how much is too much in interfering with a child's lessons.

 

[domwatts23]

From where I'm sitting, you should try to find some kind of happy medium. Of course, you cannot try to force her to eat a Paleo diet - which you obviously know, but neither should you pretend that you find that which is filling the rest of their diet palatable of acceptable. You certainly have no obligation to buy your daughter pizzas and chicken nuggets just because she eats them at school and at her father's house.

As I see it, maybe all you can do is hope that she starts to actually prefer the healthy food she is eating with you rather than the food she is given at school. There is nothing wrong with educating her properly and teaching her that the school food is packed full of junk and is genuinely unhealthy. You could perhaps make efforts to show her how fresh and healthy 'real food' is and how to cook properly, using healthy ingredients and hope that this rubs off on the rest of her life. You never know, she may start hating the food at school and at her father's house because she recognises how artificial it tastes and how bad it feels compared to the healthy food; although that might be a bit optimistic given the addiction factor when it comes to all these horrible foods.

Undoubtedly it's a difficult situation, but you can only do what you can do!

 

[Diane]

I'll never forget the days of sitting at the dinner table long after everyone was finished. I'd be staring at those purple beets, asparagus, Brussels sprouts, whatever horror was left on my plate all the while hoping for another glass of milk so I could swallow them whole and run out to play.

When it came time to raising my own children I already learned to hate what they hated so it was never an issue. We had green beans and carrots, salads with hidden goodies in them, healthy fruits etc. We had pizza, hotdogs etc at least once a week. The other nights we had balanced cooked meals. We also had cookies, cake and candy. Those were given only at snack time and limited. Like soda too....one can a day, and then you can have juice. But nothing was ever on the list of "no you can't eat that", nor was it on the list of "you have to eat that". When I was concerned that they weren't getting enough of certain healthy foods and vitamins I found creative ways of making it fun to eat them. Usually just having fresh fruit available for in between meals whenever they wanted it worked out well. They loved raw carrots from the garden too! The fun was digging them out themselves. Spinach-they loved it! Popeye was on the can!

My one son is engaged to a girl who's a vegan. She has a little girl who was in 1st grade at the time. They packed her lunch everyday with healthy food. She was not allowed to have any sugar, sugar drinks, or food that is not considered healthy. Well, she's a very bright little girl who knows how to get what she wants. She was throwing her lunch in the garbage pail at school for months and getting in the lunch line. Things caught up with her the first time when the school lunch bill came due, and the school figured out she wasn't eligible for the free lunch.

Second time she was thrown off the bus for a few days. She was taking her allowance and buying cookie and candy treats from other kids bag lunches on the bus. She would even trade her own little toys to get them. My son and future daughter in law were at their wits end with little C.

When I was asked what they could do...I told them to stop trying to control her. Encourage good habits of course, but the more you try to control this little sprite she's going to run the other direction. Everything in moderation. It's working! She's no longer a sweet treat addict, and she eats a well balanced diet. Of course she looks forward to the sweet treat, and the "Buy School Lunch on Friday's", but it's not such a big deal now that she feels she has to beg, borrow and steal to get it.

Just an example, you have to do what's best in your own situation.

 

[Alana]

How old is your daughter?

When it comes to children I don't think you are interfering with their free will if you are teaching them a healthy way to live. It's simple really. You can have only the things that you eat at your house and don't allow harmful foods to enter the threshold. That's your right. If the way you eat to you is a way of life towards well-being and health, then you have to live it and honor it everyday of your life. Your daughter will be learning by your example indirectly. If your daughter wants to have pizza at your house or when she is with you, you can explain to her in a simple way, comprehensible for her age, about how sugar, casein and gluten injure our digestive system and make us feel bad, makes us sick and stupid, ages us, etc, and that you love her too much to let that happen to her. So no pizza at your house/when she is out with you, period.

I mean, think of all the people who raise their children vegetarian, by imposing it on them and brainwashing them from birth about the evils of eating animal products! I am not saying that becoming a fascist tyrant is the answer or that it will work, but these parents have spend hours and hours explaining to their children why they eat differently than the rest of the people, and the children took the message home. A message that will bring upon them various diseases and illnesses down the road unfortunately. And here we are talking about a diet that not only is the most natural and healthy for human beings, but can be a life saver if a plague falls upon us from our astral visitors! Isn't that worth it? I think a lot of talking, a lot of explaining, a lot of examples from people whom the child knows, will help her get the message as time goes by. And it is better if things come up on their own instead of a formal "sit down and talk" type of talk. And with subjects like food, there's plenty of opportunities for talking.

For example, she might notice that an uncle is tired. You can make the connection that he is eating too much pizza, donuts, whatever evils he is eating. An aunt is growing older and is not as slim and pretty as she used to be. Another connection with what she is eating. Death in the family, how grandma looks so old, is forgetful etc, but how human beings are not made to become so sickly and fragile, it is what we eat that contributes to it, things like that.

Make the associations every time about something she ate and how she feels. "My Tummy hurts", "well, you said you ate a donut, that's what sugar and gluten do to you". Things along these lines.

Teach her about her brain and what her brain needs to eat to work properly. Same for her heart and her cells and everything. If I was to create a curriculum for educating children, I'd start them to learn about all the various parts of their bodies and all the processes that take place to make us breathe, eat, digest, move, respire, think, everything, before they are even in kindergarten! And there's no need to wait until you learned everything yourself about the diet to teach her, you will be learning along with her, and her questions will help you know where to look for more answers. OSIT.

 

[Voyageur]

[quote author=Alana ]
...

Teach her about her brain and what her brain needs to eat to work properly. Same for her heart and her cells and everything. If I was to create a curriculum for educating children, I'd start them to learn about all the various parts of their bodies and all the processes that take place to make us breathe, eat, digest, move, respire, think, everything, before they are even in kindergarten! And there's no need to wait until you learned everything yourself about the diet to teach her, you will be learning along with her, and her questions will help you know where to look for more answers. OSIT.
[/quote]

Totally agree; as her awareness allows, use science, discuss what has been taught and marketed as food against how it breaks down in our systems - their effects. This is the same for our exposures to toxins in our environment. If my parents and then even i had the knowledge, instead of blind acceptance early on, would have listened and then when older helped my own to grow with better awareness - it is a regret and it is pervasive in modern society, and now there is a good chance to help young and old understand what is, what was, and how our bodies function as a result and then make changes.

Good luck. :)

 

[Kisito]

I worked from 2003 till 2012 in a hotel in Paris. There are groups of teenagers and young adults who come of whole worlds for stays going from week to 3 months.
The Americans remain longer. In the hotel there is a self-service restaurant with the varied French food, but everything the young people eat always take pizza chips (fried). The parents are not there. And this pose the school responsibility where of the establishment who welcome them.

 

[Laura]

When my kids were growing up, they weren't allowed to have certain things for health reasons, sugar and artificial colors and flavors in particular. Now, keep in mind this is when they were really little. Of course, I was pushing the whole grains and vegetables line which I thought was healthy. As the years have passed, I have come to understand that my son's detestation of vegetables was due to the fact that they actually were bad for him. But anyway, I was doing the best I could with what I knew at the time. I made sure to make meals that were cooked from scratch using fresh ingredients and were tasty. I would take note of what they really liked that was "good for them" and prepare it often. There were no snacks or soft drinks in the house and whenever they asked for something like that, I let them know it was not good for them, so they could only have it on a "cheat day" so to say. I wasn't strictly forbidding things, but I was making it clear that its not good for you, so eat it only occasionally.

But that was then and now I know a lot more about food and my kids systems. Of course, they are all grown now and we have learned many of these things together. Knowing what I know now, I would (and do) still work on making tasty meals with goodies that are healthy.

In our family, we all got onboard the gluten and casein free diet in support of my son who was hospitalized due to the inflammation in his colon thanks to those two evils plus veggies and other "fiber rich" foods. When we all began to feel better it was like a revelation. Sensitivity to gluten in our house is so serious that we simply don't allow it in the house, period. There are lots of ways to make lots of things without those ingredients, it just takes some devotion and creativity.

 

[Maya]

How old is your daughter?

When it comes to children I don't think you are interfering with their free will if you are teaching them a healthy way to live. It's simple really. You can have only the things that you eat at your house and don't allow harmful foods to enter the threshold. That's your right. If the way you eat to you is a way of life towards well-being and health, then you have to live it and honor it everyday of your life. Your daughter will be learning by your example indirectly. If your daughter wants to have pizza at your house or when she is with you, you can explain to her in a simple way, comprehensible for her age, about how sugar, casein and gluten injure our digestive system and make us feel bad, makes us sick and stupid, ages us, etc, and that you love her too much to let that happen to her. So no pizza at your house/when she is out with you, period.

I mean, think of all the people who raise their children vegetarian, by imposing it on them and brainwashing them from birth about the evils of eating animal products! I am not saying that becoming a fascist tyrant is the answer or that it will work, but these parents have spend hours and hours explaining to their children why they eat differently than the rest of the people, and the children took the message home. A message that will bring upon them various diseases and illnesses down the road unfortunately. And here we are talking about a diet that not only is the most natural and healthy for human beings, but can be a life saver if a plague falls upon us from our astral visitors! Isn't that worth it? I think a lot of talking, a lot of explaining, a lot of examples from people whom the child knows, will help her get the message as time goes by. And it is better if things come up on their own instead of a formal "sit down and talk" type of talk. And with subjects like food, there's plenty of opportunities for talking.

For example, she might notice that an uncle is tired. You can make the connection that he is eating too much pizza, donuts, whatever evils he is eating. An aunt is growing older and is not as slim and pretty as she used to be. Another connection with what she is eating. Death in the family, how grandma looks so old, is forgetful etc, but how human beings are not made to become so sickly and fragile, it is what we eat that contributes to it, things like that.

Make the associations every time about something she ate and how she feels. "My Tummy hurts", "well, you said you ate a donut, that's what sugar and gluten do to you". Things along these lines.

Teach her about her brain and what her brain needs to eat to work properly. Same for her heart and her cells and everything. If I was to create a curriculum for educating children, I'd start them to learn about all the various parts of their bodies and all the processes that take place to make us breathe, eat, digest, move, respire, think, everything, before they are even in kindergarten! And there's no need to wait until you learned everything yourself about the diet to teach her, you will be learning along with her, and her questions will help you know where to look for more answers. OSIT.

I did a terrible thing with my doughter, all time of my pregnency (and before that, for years) I was vegetarian (ignorant new age idiot, yes)
..and when she was born she was very weak and little, I was breastfeeding her but it wasn't enough for her so she was improving very slow, and when the time came for real food - you can imagine - I made her grains, tofu, veggies with olive oil etc... And you know what - she refuses to eat that ! It was real struggle to make her eat almost anything... Not to mention, she inherited my sick gut microflora (candida) and we had very big problems with inflamattion, IBS, bouth me and her... Then I discovered paleo diet and that made me come back to my sense and put meat again to our diet... To short the story....
Now she is 5, she realy enjoys food that we eat - meat and fat, bone borth, eggs, bacon..with a very little green leafy veggies and pickles.... And like Alana said, she loves 'story behind food' - she is like little scientist , she knows it all... and is finally big, strong, healthy and well... And she doesn't want or ask for any kind of candys, gluten stuff, couse she realizes now it made her sick before...
But when it comes to visiting granny - there the problems begin again... Couse granny is cooking old fashion way - loaded with carbs and sugar, and then she force my doughter to eat that kind of food 'cause bad mommy won't let the poor kid to eat what she wants' ....
Then she eats something 'for the love of granny's' but when she came home and said that her belly hurts and she itches... (she has very strong allergy reaction on sugar, grains and probably milk) and then it takes days again to make the symptoms go away... But my mother in law says that
I'm making things up about that, that she is allergic to dust - that's why she itches... etc...
But she is 85, so who can blame her..? She eat like that all her life and belives only what the doctors say...
Anyway she is great person and I respect her and my doughter adores spending time with her so we are trying to make some compromises when it comes to' food issue'... it's very hard situation but it's very rare so... I explained to my doughter that granny loves her although she is very stuboarn and don't understand things that we know and how we live... We are all the time in 'external consideration mode' with granny and trying to avoid bad food as long as we can those day or two they spend together...
Next step I'm going to make (cause my mother in low loves doctors so very much) is to take my doughter to food intolerance test so I can prove her that she is hurting the child in way she is assuring my doughter 'her mommy is crazy and stupid and there is no such thing as gluten intolerance' and making her eat things she herself knows it's bad for her... I don't kow what else can I do..? :/

 

[Arwenn]

Thank you for starting this thread, as it's something that's been on my mind, not just with diet, but parenting in general. Prior to my first pregnancy I was vegetarian for 2 years- but my body and baby let me know otherwise, as the cravings for steak were not to be ignored! I gave up being vegetarian from then on.

When the kids were really little, I was quite strict with diet & allowed no junk food, which worked very well, until they started pre-school/school. They were the kids standing next to the lollies at kids' birthday parties, bingeing away. I learned a valuable lesson (or so I thought)- that making those decisions for them was not teaching them how to make it for themselves. So I started including some junk in my groceries, & if they felt off or it brought on a histiine/sneezing fit, we could relate it to some foods they'd eaten. I thought we had relatively decent diets, till I started reading up on paleo & keto diets & mtDNA.

So to begin with, I've cut out all gluten. I'm easing myself into it, next step is the dairy, then the sugar. Aiming for keto eventually (need to read up fully on this before jumping in), but to be honest I'm not sure how the kids will go with this.

Although the opening post was specifically diet related, parenting in general raises some interesting issues with regards to free will. Especially with teenagers- what is up with the body piercing, & the girls dressing themselves like sex workers? Is it impinging on their free will to deny them 'the right to body piercing' & to insist on skirt hems going south? I know of 12 yr old girls with belly buttons pierced, begging their mums to be allowed to go to music festivals?! And is it impinging on free will to get them to help around with the house work?

 

[Laura]

Although the opening post was specifically diet related, parenting in general raises some interesting issues with regards to free will. Especially with teenagers- what is up with the body piercing, & the girls dressing themselves like sex workers? Is it impinging on their free will to deny them 'the right to body piercing' & to insist on skirt hems going south? I know of 12 yr old girls with belly buttons pierced, begging their mums to be allowed to go to music festivals?! And is it impinging on free will to get them to help around with the house work?

I just told my kids that if they did anything to their bodies that made me lose my appetite, they would not eat at my table. And they knew I meant it. If the child was not clean and presentable, they were sent from the table. I would usually give them some leftover food that they had to eat alone in the kitchen after everyone else had eaten. I don't think any of them ever pushed this after seeing one or two of them getting the treatment. I also must have spent quite a bit of time opining on such things in their hearing because they understood clearly that I had VERY STRONG views on the matter.

 

[Arwenn]

Although the opening post was specifically diet related, parenting in general raises some interesting issues with regards to free will. Especially with teenagers- what is up with the body piercing, & the girls dressing themselves like sex workers? Is it impinging on their free will to deny them 'the right to body piercing' & to insist on skirt hems going south? I know of 12 yr old girls with belly buttons pierced, begging their mums to be allowed to go to music festivals?! And is it impinging on free will to get them to help around with the house work?

I just told my kids that if they did anything to their bodies that made me lose my appetite, they would not eat at my table. And they knew I meant it. If the child was not clean and presentable, they were sent from the table. I would usually give them some leftover food that they had to eat alone in the kitchen after everyone else had eaten. I don't think any of them ever pushed this after seeing one or two of them getting the treatment. I also must have spent quite a bit of time opining on such things in their hearing because they understood clearly that I had VERY STRONG views on the matter.

Hi Laura,

I remember reading your thoughts on that in the Wave series, & I totally agree with you. I know the lack of respect, morals, values, etc is all part of the descent into chaos, a sign of the present times... But, the question remains, is it impinging on our kids' free will? Is there an age where we allow them to choose for themselves... And is they do choose something that pushes our buttons, do we still love them? Is it possible to love them 'unconditionally' when we set parameters within which our love is 'more freely' given?

 

[Nienna]

Although the opening post was specifically diet related, parenting in general raises some interesting issues with regards to free will. Especially with teenagers- what is up with the body piercing, & the girls dressing themselves like sex workers? Is it impinging on their free will to deny them 'the right to body piercing' & to insist on skirt hems going south? I know of 12 yr old girls with belly buttons pierced, begging their mums to be allowed to go to music festivals?! And is it impinging on free will to get them to help around with the house work?

You, being their parent, are supposed to be the one who is teaching and caring for them because as a child, they just do not know right from wrong. They cannot freely choose something when they know nothing about it. So as long as they are under 18, I think that you have the right to teach them right from wrong as you see it.

And there is nothing wrong with advising them after they are 18. You just can't push things then.

That's how I see it anyway.

 

[trendsetter37]

Wow thanks everyone for your views and experiences with this matter. Based on the responses I think we are going in the right direction.

As for her age, she is 9 and super precocious. Sometimes I forget that she is just kid. With that being said that fact lends me certain opportunities to explain the chemistry behind why she feels the way she does after eating food. I tend to get really excited because I'm a chemist by training and many of these topics and dietary mechanisms were skipped or avoided in college, EVEN in actual biochemistry classes! So she definitely notices my enthusiasm when I discover new things that she assumes I would already know.

I guess an example of a recent occurrence is with tobacco. I was never a smoker growing up and my parents made it evil for me. And she tends to despise her father for smoking and uses subjectivity to back her claims. These claims take the form of he stinks or he is going to kill their newborn with his cigarettes. All the while I just sit there and listen to this (in what i'm hoping was external consideration). Well a few weeks ago I began researching nicotine and tobacco; and specifically how it relates to brain chemistry. I decided to try it and note the effects that I experience. Keep in mind that the tobacco I chose to use was supposedly "organic loose tobacco" that didn't contain any of the chemical additives that are rampant in commercial cigarettes (in the U.S. anyways). I was nervous about this because she holds me in high esteem because i usually include her in little home experiments of mine. I didn't want to ruin that aspect of our relationship but I decided to do it and roll them in the open. She slowly walks over and asks what I was doing. The look on her face said it all. "I know you are not doing what I'm witnessing with my own two eyes". I slowly tell her that i'm rolling my own cigarettes and that I was doing so because I recently came across some research that suggested that it was beneficial to our brain chemistry. Furthermore, I explained that it has come to my attention that the whole cancer stick prognosis seemed to be suspiciously pervasive and might only be connected with the additives of commercial cigarettes. I also told her that other cultures (native american comes to mind) used tobacco heavily and to my knowledge weren't plagued by the diseases/cancers that governments and other institutions connect with cigarettes. I continued to tell her that diet seemed to be the link to a lot of what is being experienced as a consequence not tobacco. Of course I was using laymen's terms for that last bit.

She new that I was reading and on the computer ALL the time so she couldn't argue with my reasoning and slowly walked away. The next day she comes to me and asks if I could teach her dad (biological father) about rolling his own cigs because he asked about it after she mentioned my experiment. I was pretty blown away but am also cautious because I totally wasn't expecting her to tell her dad and/or sway his decisions.

I felt like I got off topic but I wanted to share. I hope someone can relate or glean insight from my experience.

 

[Maya]

oh, yes 'the tabacco issue' ...
My doughter asked long time ago why are we smoking when they said on TV it is not healthy
and Granny said so too... then after we explained her the diference betwen organic, pure tabacco and industrial one
and all the health benefits - she asks if she could smoke too when she grows a little bit
Again - what to say to a 5 year old kid ? I said that she could, but only in the way her father and I do..
Toxic industrial crap - no way... and that she could not do it infront of everyone else until she is 18 because people
do not understand and we could have problems cause of it...
Although she is so small, she has her 'attitude' towards many things beacause in our house we talk very openly about everything..
Yes, she also asked about tattoos & piercings, slutty dressing, fake nails, hair colouring and stuff and we said that we think it looks cheep, that it's stupid and dangerous and the main thing - it's really unneccesery cause real natural beauty and kindness is what counts.
We find appropriate background story with scientific facts for every question she made... But always make accent that she always think twice
about anything and to try put herself in 'others shoes' and get the bigger picture.. and that herself only will bear the consequences for her actions.
I'm so happy cause she is like that.. remindes me of myself when I was a child, I also had so many questions but unfortunatly
nowone could give me truthfull and honest answers like that back then...and I hated feeling that everyone was telling lies to me..
She also asked about abductions, radiation, psychopaths, asteroids, human trafficking etc, drugs, alcoholism -
I'm shocked how she finds that topic and
what about her little brain is thinking... but it's good that way... knowlegde protects, right ?
I can only imagine how it would be when she heads to school ...?
Hope it's not very much off topic

 

[Diane]

Gluten Intolerance is tricky business. I'm sharing this only for others who battle with this, and if it's of some help to one person then it was worth it.

I went through all the tests for Celiac disease, (coeliac). Seems I had a severe intolerance for Gluten. This intolerance sprang up out of no where and lasted for 2 years. They found a funky cell in my intestines that they cannot identify. I did not have celiac. I also have a pectin allergy that rules out a lot of fresh fruit and vegetables, that's getting better as I get older.

My celiac symptoms, (gluten intolerance), were caused by Lyme Disease. I have no memory of a tick bite. Lyme is the great imposter. I spent years running to doctors for all my crazy symptoms. At one time they thought I had MS, Carpal tunnel, Gallbladder problems, fibromyalgia, depression....the list goes on and on. The standard Lyme test at your local doctors office is not recommended. I was treated once in 1995 with IV antibiotics. My symptoms returned in full force a few years later. It wasn't until I lost my short term memory, (talk about a walking zombie), that I paid out of pocket for a good Lyme and co-infection test at IGENEX Inc.-located in USA CA. I was diagnosed then with high levels of Lyme (even after 6 weeks of IV antibiotics), and Babesia, (co-infection of Lyme).

I'm not saying in any way that all gluten intolerance is caused by Lyme. Just if crazy symptoms persist after you've changed your diet and done all that you could, you may want to consider a good Lyme test. Standard Lyme tests only show if you have a recent infection, and they do not test for co-infections that the little buggers carry. Pays off to get a good Lyme test from a lab that specializes in this type of testing.

Smoking

I slowly tell her that i'm rolling my own cigarettes and that I was doing so because I recently came across some research that suggested that it was beneficial to our brain chemistry. Furthermore, I explained that it has come to my attention that the whole cancer stick prognosis seemed to be suspiciously pervasive and might only be connected with the additives of commercial cigarettes. I also told her that other cultures (native american comes to mind) used tobacco heavily and to my knowledge weren't plagued by the diseases/cancers that governments and other institutions connect with cigarettes. I continued to tell her that diet seemed to be the link to a lot of what is being experienced as a consequence not tobacco.

I've rolled my own cigarettes for years. I've even graduated to an electric rolling machine. If you check in the tobacco store you'll find that some very inexpensive pipe tobacco's have no additives. I'm liking the idea that it may be beneficial to my brain chemistry. ;) I can say that once I stopped smoking the commercial brand cigs I felt a whole lot better.