Gay marriage - Does it matter?

I certainly have no issue at all with civil partnerships. They are social contracts and not religious ones and Western societies are largely accepting of gay people. But gay marriage involves a religious institution that is not accepting of homosexuals.

If the Bible and religious texts teach that homosexuality is wrong, yet gay people believe that God loves everyone equally and they should therefore have the same right to get married in church just like heterosexual couples do, then I think they're imposing their perception of what God should be like on the Christian God.

If they feel that the Christian anti-gay stance is wrong, then wouldn't it be more logical to move away from a church that you disagree with? Why push to get married in front of a God that rejects you? Because you believe that God should love and accept you?

To me, it almost sounds like telling God what to do, despite what that God supposedly said in the bible.

Looking at the current push for diversity, equality and inclusion, I won't be very surprised if leftists will soon start insisting that the number of gay and straight couples getting married is equal, just like feminists want equal number of men and women in male dominated professions - against all logic.
 
If they feel that the Christian anti-gay stance is wrong, then wouldn't it be more logical to move away from a church that you disagree with? Why push to get married in front of a God that rejects you? Because you believe that God should love and accept you?

For many/most Christians I think your observation would be fair and logical. They view gay marriage as being a forced acceptance by their traditional faith.

I suppose it is possible that some gay couples may be longing for a god/God who loves and accepts them unconditionally as the Christian concept of Agape love is presented.

Finding no "religion" to support this concept has probably left many with few choices to fall back on other than their own childhood religions.

I think Christianity may be one of the more tolerant religions compared to to say Islam otherwise there would be no churches consenting to allow gay marriages or even gay clergy.

It certainly is a confusing time for all of us I think.
 
I've had my head in learning about Constitutional law - predominantly the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Australia. From what I understand, the Constitutions of those countries that have them are based in Common Law. In relation to this thread, I remembered hearing the term 'common law wife' somewhere - maybe in a movie or something. So I looked up Common Law Marriages. Thing about common law is that it basically gives people the freedom to do anything they want. There is no crime unless there is a victim (golden rule - do unto others as you would have others do unto you), and then the law of equity steps in.

So what is a Common Law Marriage?

What is Common Law Marriage: A Definition

A common law marriage is one in which the couple lives together for a period of time and holds themselves out to friends, family and the community as "being married," but without ever going through a formal ceremony or getting a marriage license. Below are three of the common requirements for most states (note that just "living together" isn't enough to validate a common law marriage).

1. You must live together (amount of time varies by state).

2. You both must have the legal right or "capacity to marry".


  • Both must be 18 years old (varies by State).
  • Both must be of sound mind.
  • Both must not be married to someone else.
3. You both must intend to be married.

4. You both must hold yourself out to friends and family as being a married couple.


  • Taking the same last name.
  • Referring to each other in public as "husband," "wife," or "spouse."
  • Holding joint bank accounts / credit cards.
Note in the above, there is no requirement that any official ceremony or registration takes place. Two adults can of sound mind can just decide that they wish to be married.

And from FAQ's about Common Law Marriages

A common myth is that if you live with someone for seven years, then you automatically create a common law marriage. This is not true -- a marriage occurs when a couple lives together for a certain number of years (one year in most states), holds themselves out as a married couple, and intends to be married. Same-sex couples have the same rights to claim a common law marriage as any other couple.
Once a common law marriage is formed, that couple is treated legally the same way that traditional married couples are treated. This means that if the couple intends to no longer be married, they must file for divorce.

So, I wondered about the history of Civil Marriages, since apparently Common Law is much older than Civil Law, are where does the Religious tradition of Marriage come from?

I know wikipedia isn't a reliable source, but it can give some clues as to where to go looking - terms to search etc.

It states in the Common Law Marriages article:

In ancient Greek and Roman civilization, marriages were private agreements between individuals and families. Community recognition of a marriage was largely what qualified it as a marriage. The state had only limited interests in assessing the legitimacy of marriages. Normally civil and religious officials took no part in marriage ceremonies, nor did they keep registries. There were several more or less formal ceremonies to choose from (partly interchangeable, but sometimes with different legal ramifications) as well as informal arrangements. It was relatively common for couples to cohabit with no ceremony; cohabiting for a moderate period of time was sufficient to make it a marriage. Cohabiting for the purpose of marriage carried with it no social stigma.[citation needed]

In medieval Europe, marriage came under the jurisdiction of canon law, which recognized as a valid marriage one where the parties stated that they took one another as wife and husband, even in absence of any witnesses.[citation needed]

So basically, marriage used to be a private decision between two adults of sound mind until -

The Catholic Church forbade clandestine marriage at the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), which required all marriages to be announced in a church by a priest.

Here's a list of subjects covered by the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215


And the part about 'Clandestine Marriage':

51. Clandestine marriages forbidden
Since the prohibition against marriage in the three remotest degrees has been revoked, we wish it to be strictly observed in the other degrees. Following in the footsteps of our predecessors, we altogether forbid clandestine marriages and we forbid any priest to presume to be present at such a marriage. Extending the special custom of certain regions to other regions generally, we decree that when marriages are to be contracted they shall be publicly announced in the churches by priests, with a suitable time being fixed beforehand within which whoever wishes and is able to may adduce a lawful impediment. The priests themselves shall also investigate whether there is any impediment. When there appears a credible reason why the marriage should not be contracted, the contract shall be expressly forbidden until there has been established from clear documents what ought to be done in the matter. If any persons presume to enter into clandestine marriages of this kind, or forbidden marriages within a prohibited degree, even if done in ignorance, the offspring of the union shall be deemed illegitimate and shall have no help from their parents’ ignorance, since the parents in contracting the marriage could be considered as not devoid of knowledge, or even as affecters of ignorance. Likewise the offspring shall be deemed illegitimate if both parents know of a legitimate impediment and yet dare to contract a marriage in the presence of the church, contrary to every prohibition. Moreover the parish priest who refuses to forbid such unions, or even any member of the regular clergy who dares to attend them, shall be suspended from office for three years and shall be punished even more severely if the nature of the fault requires it. Those who presume to be united in this way, even if it is within a permitted degree, are to be given a suitable penance. Anybody who maliciously proposes an impediment, to prevent a legitimate marriage, will not escape the church’s vengeance.

In other words, the Catholic Church was basically forbidding Common Law marriages and decided that they would only recognise marriages that they announced. It's interesting that it was illegal to read the bible until the 1600's and that some Constitutional/Common Law students see the bible as differentiating between Common Law and Civil Law - which is Roman and has it's foundation in commerce - and giving instruction on how to live a life between these two styles of Law and what to do when they conflict. The Civil system registers things that are assets to commerce - in other words - things that money can be made out of or that can be used to secure lending/fractional reserve banking based on projected future values - a registered marriage produces more people who will be registered with a birth certificate. In common law there is no official registration of the marriage.

So technically and historically, Gay's could get married under common law - two adults of sound mind making a private decision. But it wouldn't be a good proposition to allow that in a civil system that likes new asset being produced to register.

Then beginning in 1215 the Catholic Church started to set up conditions that would later result in Civil statues and acts that placed increasing control over who or how anyone could marry.

The rest of the history of Common Law Marriage from wiki:
The Council of Trent (1545–1563) introduced more specific requirements, ruling that in the future a marriage would be valid only if witnessed by the pastor of the parish or the local ordinary (i.e., the bishop of the diocese), or by the delegate of one of said witnesses, the marriage being invalid otherwise, even if witnessed by a Catholic priest. The Tridentine canons did not bind the Protestants or the Eastern Orthodox, but clandestine marriage was impossible for the latter, since marriage required the presence of a priest for validity. England abolished clandestine or common-law marriages in the Marriage Act 1753, requiring marriages to be performed by a priest of the Church of England unless the participants in the marriage were Jews or Quakers. The Act applied to Wales. The Act did not apply to Scotland because by the Acts of Union 1707 Scotland retained its own legal system. To get around the requirements of the Marriage Act, such as minimum age requirements, couples would go to Gretna Green in southern Scotland, or other border villages such as Coldstream, to get married under Scots law.
Marriages per verba de praesenti, sometimes known as common-law marriages, were an agreement to marry, rather than a marriage.[5]

The Marriage Act of 1753 also did not apply to Britain's overseas colonies of the time, so common-law marriages continued to be recognized in the future United States and Canada. All other European jurisdictions have long abolished "marriage by habit and repute",[citation needed] Scotland became the last to do so in 2006.[6]

So I guess that brings the 'traditional' aspect of a Civil Marriage into some question. But it also reveals another reason why there is such support for SSM to be registered into that system now with increasing national debt - registering more assets allows for more borrowing!
 
In addition to the above - in a civil/commercial system where assets are used as security for lending, then the value of those assets have to be protected. When you can't protect the value of assets against all contingencies, you insure them. So registered assets are insured and the civil/commercial system makes a dollar whether you stay married or not. One of the definitions I read for the difference between trade and commerce stated that trade is dependent on supply and demand where as commerce isn't. In commerce, money is made no matter what supply and demand is on commodities.
 
I think you put your finger at the heart of the matter, and I agree. For liberals, "rights" can never be enough

There is perhaps an example of this in a recent article about an event a couple of years ago:


When the home of Nikki Joly burned down in 2017, killing five pets, the FBI investigated it as a hate crime.

After all, the transgender man and gay rights activist had received threats after having a banner year in this conservative town.

In the prior six months, he helped open the city's first gay community center, organized the first gay festival and, after 18 years of failed attempts, helped lead a bruising battle for an ordinance that prohibits discrimination against gays.

For his efforts, a local paper named him Citizen of the Year.

Authorities later determined the fire was intentionally set, but the person they arrested came as a shock to both supporters and opponents of the gay rights movement. It was the citizen of the year - Nikki Joly.

"It's embarrassing," said Travis Trombley, a gay resident who fought for the ordinance. "How do you do it to the community you have put so much effort into helping?"

Why Joly, 54, would allegedly burn down his home remains a mystery. He didn't own the house, which was insured by its owner, police said.

His attorney said the lack of a motive cast doubt on the case.

Meanwhile, a police investigative report suggests a possible reason for the fire.

Two people who worked with Joly at St. Johns United Church of Christ, where the Jackson Pride Center was located, said he had been frustrated the controversy over gay rights had died down with the passage of the nondiscrimination law, according to the report.

The church officials, Barbara Shelton and Bobby James, when asked by police about a possible motive for the fire, said Joly was disappointed the Jackson Pride Parade and Festival, held five days before the blaze, hadn't received more attention or protests.

This person, apparently dissappointed that she (I think) got what she wanted and that the attention had waned, decided to burn down the house she was living in (killing 5 pets in the process) to get more attention by creating the appearance that she (and the 'gay community') were still under attack. :shock:
 
There is perhaps an example of this in a recent article about an event a couple of years ago:




This person, apparently dissappointed that she (I think) got what she wanted and that the attention had waned, decided to burn down the house she was living in (killing 5 pets in the process) to get more attention by creating the appearance that she (and the 'gay community') were still under attack. :shock:

Sort of like radical feminists etc. These people get their sense of identity out of the things that they oppose, so for some feminists, they don't really want to see an end to, for instance, male chauvinism (real or imagined) since then they would have nothing with which to maintain and fuel their ideologies, and if there is no verification for their ideologies, their whole wordview would have to be reconsidered.
 
This person, apparently dissappointed that she (I think) got what she wanted and that the attention had waned, decided to burn down the house she was living in (killing 5 pets in the process) to get more attention by creating the appearance that she (and the 'gay community') were still under attack. :shock:

:scared:

Same thing with so-called gay rights (or queer or whatever) activists: imagine you are part of some such NGO, nicely pampered by our tax payer's money, where all you have to do is write some rants from time to time, organize some events and go clubbing with your queer buddies. Now what happens if the "threat" and "oppression" and whatever just vanishes? Gna, you gotta do some real work! Can't let that happen, so better invent new threats all the time. And if you can't find any, just invent some nonsense such as "unconscious bias" or "verbal abuse" or whatever.

As for gay marriage, one thing many brainwashed people today don't realize is that you can't expand rights and concepts such as marriage without losing something. They always think "oh, it doesn't hurt anybody if we get ever-more 'inclusive'". But that's wrong. If we think of marriage, for example, as a powerful symbol, then it derives its power from the specific shape and form of that symbol - just as in a Reiki symbol. If you change that form (for example by changing it from "spiritual union between a man and a woman" to "union between whoever"), then it loses its power. You destroy the symbol by deforming it.

Something else people often forget: just a few years ago, nobody except some extremist LGBT activists even suggested something like "gay marriage"! Even for left-wingers, traditional marriage was a no-brainer. Think about the 90ies - "gay marriage" was nowhere in the programs of democrats or socialist or left-wing parties in the Western world, safe a few extremist exceptions perhaps. It certainly wasn't mainstream in the least. But suddenly, it appeared out of nowhere, to the point that even many conservatives were forced to agree. Something to think about! And from this observation, we can easily extrapolate where we're headed: "marriage" between non-binaries, perhaps between minors and adults, or even polygamy... Talk about the utter destruction and perversion of something deeply sacred!!
 
I have nothing against gays or queers, however I don’t understand all the fuss over gay marriage to be honest. In Australia a year or so ago, vast sums of public funds were spent on a plebiscite to vote on this issue, before they passed the laws allowing it. I know it was a big deal in Ireland a couple of years ago when gay marriage laws were passed there. With less people having religious affiliations and attending church, why the need to be recognised as being joined in holy matrimony by religion then? There was an article on SoTT recently, stating that in France the number of traditional marriages are decreasing, but gay marriages are on the increase.

So many rights have been afforded to genuinely disenfranchised groups, and thank goodness for that. Yes ethnic, gay, transgender & women’s rights did need to be addressed, and compared to a few decades ago they certainly have been (in Western society at least). As the article posted above points out, maybe the LGBTQ+ crowd are never satisfied unless they constantly have something to rail against. If these activists are really concerned about social justice, they perhaps need to turn to societies & religions where being gay is still a crime, and where you can totally forget about gay marriage.
 
If these activists are really concerned about social justice, they perhaps need to turn to societies & religions where being gay is still a crime, and where you can totally forget about gay marriage.

I think that is a good observation Arwenn. It seems an easier religion to approach for gay marriage acceptance was Christianity. If the LGBTQ community was really serious about the fighting for tolerance and acceptance they could always approach the more difficult arena of Islam perhaps? It is not that I am for or against gay marriage but I think most of us can relate to fighting a good fight for what we see as the "truth".

Also, as far as the meaning of marriage for me it requires the concept of deep commitment and sacrifice. It is not just some right or privilege to be received but a way to unite with someone who has the same aims and goals. This whole process of course for our species seems to be highly charged by body-centric hormones in our early mating phase. Whether this was the original plan or a plan that we agreed to accept before birth I am not sure.

This is a deep subject I think that affects all aspects of "life" in this density.
 
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Sort of like radical feminists etc. These people get their sense of identity out of the things that they oppose, so for some feminists, they don't really want to see an end to, for instance, male chauvinism (real or imagined) since then they would have nothing with which to maintain and fuel their ideologies, and if there is no verification for their ideologies, their whole wordview would have to be reconsidered.

We can say the same about MGTOW and MRA and those who go 'Full Tomassi', so to speak.

It's all quite sad, actually. As far as I can see, yes, adjustments needed to be made, and still need to be made.

But I don't think anyone needs more rights. That's what they say they are seeking, but what they are really seeking is justice (as they define it) for misdeeds, slights, and wrongs - both real and imagined.

The systems of laws in place are supposed to be inadequate, so therefore we need more laws to have more justice. That often means that we need laws against a majority in support of a minority. At the very least, it means we needs laws boosting one side of the population while minimizing the other side.

But how on earth can that work? Justice for homosexuals at the expense of heterosexuals? Justice for men at the expense of women? Justice for women at the expense of men?

In every case, the end result would lead to complete nothingness if taken to its full conclusion. Take radical anti-male feminists. Let's say they get their way. Okay, down with men! Everyone's a lesbian now. Congratulations, you got what you wanted. Now just wait 1 generation, and the human race will cease to exist. This would no doubt be a great relief to such feminists, because without the evils of the Patriarchy to rant against, what would be their purpose in life?

How about less radical feminists who just want men to stop being men (at least Dr. JP won't be out of a job)? That also leads to nothingness, because men stop being men. While outwardly, these women will be 'happy' with the situation, divorce rates start going up because inwardly, women are unhappy - both because they no longer have anything to work for since all men are now feminized, and also because who wants to be with a girly-man? Obviously, men are also unhappy. The only solutions would be: let men be men again, or go Full Radical Feminist and get rid of 'em. See previous paragraph for the conclusion. Or, men go their own way...

Well, okay, how about MGTOW? Yup, you don't need women! Forget about real love and intimacy! Just have sex with your computer or a robo-babe with impossibly large synthetic jumblies. You'll show them, alright! One generation later, no more human race.

What about Full Tomassi? Well, according to the theory and if taken to its extreme: A small number of men would have a lot of boinking to do. Many would soon die of exhaustion. The rest of the men would be seriously unhappy. A huge majority of women would be seriously unhappy since they would quickly tire of having their hopes dashed after repeated encounters with charming-yet-psychopathic Energizer Man-Bunnies. Sooner rather than later, everything collapses since even the ideas of rearing children or love or genuine connection all get tossed by the wayside. The larger group of unhappy men would probably go MGTOW in revenge, women would become rabid feminists, and see above.

Now, maybe that's all a bit extreme, but it seems to me that this is exactly what these groups are promoting. They haven't actually attempted to take their ideas to their logical conclusions. They just want to "feel better". So, they push an agenda that doesn't take all the variables into account. They don't realize that their Only Solution to what they see as the world's problems is actually perfectly designed (by them!) to result in full and total and even worse unhappiness - not only for them, but for everyone else as well.

It's all rather nihilistic. I suppose that shouldn't be terribly surprising since the Western world has been "all about me" for quite some time now. Like the C's say, I guess there's a program for everyone...

On the plus side, it does give a lot of food for thought. It's easy to get riled up about this or that, but it's not so easy to look at it, think about it, deal with one's own feelings about life, love, and so on, and then make informed and considerate modifications that take all the variables into account.

As in: What does it really mean - or what should it mean - to be a man, woman, gay, straight, or whatever in our so-called modern world?
 
I have nothing against gays or queers, however I don’t understand all the fuss over gay marriage to be honest. In Australia a year or so ago, vast sums of public funds were spent on a plebiscite to vote on this issue, before they passed the laws allowing it. I know it was a big deal in Ireland a couple of years ago when gay marriage laws were passed there. With less people having religious affiliations and attending church, why the need to be recognised as being joined in holy matrimony by religion then?

Exactly. Being accepted, not discriminated against and even having the possibility to have a Civil marriage, is quite a thing. Why ask for more, if not to normalize things, out of an ego trip, brain-washing and "pride"? The same with any minority that goes extreme.

When asking for more and more equates to normalizing something that isn't quite in the normal order of things and when it is to the detriment of others, then you've got a problem. The big majority is never against equal rights, but that's already the case in the Western world. Asking for more is abusing that, and it can backfire.

For me it's not just about "gay marriage", but what that implies as a symptom of how marriage in general has been corrupted. Easily achieved, easily broken, no more real meaning behind it. And it's not just limited to Christianity. It's values in general that are degrading.
 
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