Get confused whenever I suffer

Andrey

Jedi
Just to give a backdrop I have a history with drugs and alcohol so I guess you could say that I have had a life of "free lunches." Whenever I feel something bad, I went straight for the drugs or alcohol.

I've dive deeped into the philosophies of this forum and found out that suffering is part of the growth process. Problem is everytime I tried to embrace this idea, I get confused. I feel like maybe I'm doing something wrong or I'm not on the right track or something everytime I suffer. Like I'm suffering like the C's talked about, but its not the "right kind" of suffering. Like I'm supposed to do something better or do more and I'm going through unnecessary suffering. I get anxious about if this is the best life for me being anxious all the time. It makes me want to revert to my old life of being hedonistic.

But I feel like it's true that one needs to suffer in order to learn lessons. How do I internalize this idea? I freak out even when I have to do chores in the house.

My question is: what can one realize about suffering that helps people be able to face it without much worry?

I personally get confused, but if there are some focus points I could think about while enduring it that would be great. Thanks!
 
Firstly: You need to deal with your addictions and build up different coping strategies. Can you get help, where you are living?
I move around a lot between USA and India. I can get help, but because I move around a lot, I'm not getting help from a single medical team. I'm still trying to figure it out.
 
There are a number of sessions describing suffering as necessary for growth. There's a few good quotes here:


But if you want things flesh out in more detail, I think Jordan Peterson puts it really well. Example:

There’s this old idea that you have to rescue your father from the belly of the whale, right? From some monster that’s deep in the abyss. You see that in Pinocchio, for example, but it’s a very common idea. And I figured out why that is, I think.

Imagine that we already know from a clinical perspective that if you set out a path towards a goal - which you want to do because you need a goal and you need a path because that provides you with positive emotion, right? So you set up something as valuable, so that implies a hierarchy.

You set up something as valuable. You decide that you’re going to do that instead of other things. So that’s kind of a sacrifice, because you’re sacrificing everything else to pursue that. And then you experience a fair bit of positive emotion and meaning as you watch yourself move towards the goal.

And so the implication of that is that the better the goal, the more full and rich your experience is going to be when you pursue it, so that’s one of the reasons for developing a vision and for fleshing yourself out philosophically, because you want to aim at the highest goal that you can manage. Okay, so you do that.

Then what you’ll find is that as you move towards the goal, there are certain things that you have to accomplish that frighten you. Maybe you have to learn to be a better speaker, a better writer, a better thinker. You have to better to people around you, you have to learn some new skills and you’re afraid of that, whatever. Because it’s going to stretch you if you pursue a goal. And so that’ll put you up against challenges.

Okay, so all the clinical data indicates the opposite of safe spaces as Jonathan Haidt has been pointing out. What you want to do when you identify something that someone needs to do but is avoiding because they’re afraid - you have them voluntarily confront it, and so you break it down. What you try to do, if you’re a behaviour therapist, is you break down the thing they’re avoiding into smaller and smaller pieces until you find a piece that’s small enough so they’ll do it. And it doesn’t really matter, so long as they start it, and they can put the next piece on, and the next piece.

What happens is that they don’t get less afraid exactly, they get braver. It’s like there’s more of them. And then here’s why. So imagine you do something new, and that’s informative, right? There’s information in the action. And then you can incorporate that information and turn it into a skill and turn it into a transformation of your perceptions. So there’s more to you because you’ve tried something new. So that’s one thing.

But the second thing is, and there’s good biological evidence for this now, if you put yourself in a new situation, then new genes code for new proteins and build new neural structures and new nervous system structures. Same thing happens to some degree when you work out, right? Because your muscles are responding to the load, but your nervous system does that, too. So you imagine that there’s a lot of potential YOU locked in your genetic code. And then if you put yourself in a new situation, then the stress, that’s the situational stress that’s produced by that particular situation unlocks those genes and then builds new parts of you.

And so that’s very cool because who knows how much there is locked inside of you. Okay, so now here’s the idea. So let’s assume that that scales as you take on heavier and heavier loads, that more and more of you – you get more and more informed because you’re doing more and more difficult things, but more and more of you gets unlocked. And so then, what would imply is that if you got to the point where you could look at the darkest thing, so that would be the abyss, right? That would be the deepest abyss. If you could look at the harshest things like the most brutal parts of the suffering of the world and the malevolence of people in society, if you could look at that straight and directly and that would turn you on maximally.

And so that’s the idea of rescuing your father, because imagine that you’re the potential composite of all the ancestral wisdom that’s locked inside of you biologically, but that’s not going to come out at all unless you stress yourself, unless you challenge yourself. And the bigger the challenge you take on, the more that’s going to turn on. And so that as you take on a broader and broader range of challenges, and you push yourself harder, then more and more of what you could BE turns on. And that’s equivalent to transforming yourself into the ancestral father, because you’re like the consequence of all these living beings that have come before you, and that’s all part of your biological potentiality.

And then if you can push yourself, then all of that clicks on and that turns you into who you could BE.

He has lots of videos on the necessity of suffering, and how hedonism doesn't actually provide an antidote to suffering - it only prolongs the suffering and intensifies it. That's because genuine positive emotion is dopaminergic, and is generated by making a goal, and watching yourself following through on that goal. This means intentional suffering. But he's careful to say that it makes sense not to bite off more than you can chew. Start small, and build from there, otherwise, it all just gets overwhelming. Maybe you're pushing too hard right now? You can always tone it down a bit - which is waaay better than backsliding into hedonism.

Go on YouTube and you'll find lots of the 'Jordan Peterson motivation' videos. They're great.

And then there's the cosmological perspective. You are a microcosm, and if you take care of your own little corner of the universe, it has a butterfly effect and contributes to a general positive transformation of the macrocosm, the realm, the universe, all of Creation. In that sense, our own suffering to grow in Knowledge and Being is not just a struggle undertaken on our own behalf, but also on behalf of All and Everything.
 
Just to give a backdrop I have a history with drugs and alcohol so I guess you could say that I have had a life of "free lunches." Whenever I feel something bad, I went straight for the drugs or alcohol.

I've dive deeped into the philosophies of this forum and found out that suffering is part of the growth process. Problem is everytime I tried to embrace this idea, I get confused. I feel like maybe I'm doing something wrong or I'm not on the right track or something everytime I suffer. Like I'm suffering like the C's talked about, but its not the "right kind" of suffering. Like I'm supposed to do something better or do more and I'm going through unnecessary suffering. I get anxious about if this is the best life for me being anxious all the time. It makes me want to revert to my old life of being hedonistic.

But I feel like it's true that one needs to suffer in order to learn lessons. How do I internalize this idea? I freak out even when I have to do chores in the house.

My question is: what can one realize about suffering that helps people be able to face it without much worry?

I personally get confused, but if there are some focus points I could think about while enduring it that would be great. Thanks!

Gabor Mate's work, particularly "In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts" could be a very good resource for you.

Since you mentioned philosophy, some suffering is necessary and some isn't. Some serves to correct your course, and some is just useless and doesn't benefit you or anyone. When we act unconsciously or mechanically (living life according to the pursuit of what feels good in the moment), we invite unnecessary suffering into our lives, which tries to push us to correct course and act more consciously. Some forms of learning, such as gaining knowledge and learning from the experiences and mistakes of others, do not. Part of our goal here is to learn our lessons in ways that allow us to avoid unnecessary suffering.

My question is: what can one realize about suffering that helps people be able to face it without much worry?

Based on what you shared above, it could just be that physiologically you are just over capacity. If that's the case focusing on managing your health and stress levels could also be important.

If doing small tasks like the laundry is a large hurdle for you, then it sounds like there's lots of opportunities to practice intentional suffering, which is when we consciously choose to to difficult things, because it rewires our brains to make that kind of work easier. Of course if our health is poor or we are in a state of overwhelm or physiologically collapse or functional freeze, that kind of suffering doesn't produce the right results and we need to get our physical and mental health in order first. And catch up on sleep. How is your sleep?
 
Just to give a backdrop I have a history with drugs and alcohol so I guess you could say that I have had a life of "free lunches."

I move around a lot between USA and India. I can get help, but because I move around a lot, I'm not getting help from a single medical team. I'm still trying to figure it out.

I would focus mainly on one thing if you still should have problems with drug and/or alcohol abuse (which isn’t clear from what you have said, if that is still the case): And that is, stopping the abuse and be clean for at least a couple of years before even attempting to think or muse about esoteric stuff.
 
Andrey said:
I move around a lot between USA and India. I can get help, but because I move around a lot, I'm not getting help from a single medical team. I'm still trying to figure it out.

from my own experience the expression "first things first'' comes to mind
I would think the best approach is to ascertain in which area can you avail of treatment options for your addictions- clearly your addiction issues need to be adressed with the help of a support group - residential prob best move- Any good rehab will have a support structure in place (after care etc when you complete treatment. That would require staying put in one place where you can build and avail of support and get properly grounded .
active addicts have a default setting of not being accountable and will do anything that avoids taking reponsibilty -at least thats from my own lived experience-

when i was in active addiction I did many 'geographicals' (moving from one place to another,usually with the grass is greener narrative!

whilst in a treatment some of the dust will settle and you will get help in that process and by doing that you will begin to get a grasp of you addiction issues ,

Thats what I would suggest -be aware that your addiction will find a million reasons not to address your core issues and that running away from things whether they are household chores and moving around all the time are very much tied up with your addiction issues.

First things first .

Every good wish
 
Hi Andrey, are you dependent on your family because of financial reasons or because of your condition or both? If I understand you correctly, you don't drink alcohol or use drugs anymore, is that right? I'd advise against returning to your old habits as it'll very likely make your symptoms worse.

I understand it's difficult to clean up your diet when you're on the move, but perhaps you can make preparations and plan ahead. For example, when you go to the US you could see where you can get quality meat and food and do the same for India, make sure you get some once you arrive and when you leave again you could prepare meals for the flight. It's going to require a lot of discipline, and this discipline could feel like suffering, but eventually you'll hopefully feel much better and decrease unneccesary suffering by healing your body and giving it the right fuel.

However, it's also important to make sure you do what you can, and to do it in small steps if your energy is too low. Maybe you can start out with eating only homemade meals cooked in animal fat (no seed oils), then eliminating gluten from your diet and once that's going well, you start eliminating dairy and so on. Maybe there are family members who could help?
 
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My question is: what can one realize about suffering that helps people be able to face it without much worry?
Added to what others have said: life comes with an element of suffering, as well as joy.
So it’s useful to decide what you are going to do with that suffering.
Avoiding suffering now will only put off the suffering to later. Better to grab that bull by the horns.
Voluntary suffering to achieve a goal is important. In your case the goal could be cleaning up your diet, putting things in place so you don’t revert to drugs and alcohol (for example joining an AA group), and perhaps getting some regular exercise. Maybe even cold showers if you want to practice voluntary suffering.
The point of voluntary suffering is knowing why it’s important to you. That comes from knowledge and understanding.
For example, cold showers (done correctly) may lower inflammation and help you think more clearly. There is a long thread on it.
Lifting weights and getting physically stronger may have similar results, research this to find the why, so there is no confusion in your voluntary suffering. You don’t need a gym, using your own body weight would be a good starting point.

The shirt explanation is this: set simple goals (health, stability, less confusion), then work to achieve those goals. Achieving goals will come with some level of suffering. With correct knowledge about why the goals would be good for you, and voluntarily accepting the suffering that comes from reaching those goals, there should be no confusion.
However that may require you achieving some of those goals first.

So maybe just accept that suffering and confusion will be part of reaching your goals. Suffering is part of effort, confusion means needing to learn more about your goals, or whatever issues you are struggling with (so you can set clearer goals).
 
Hi Andrey,
It's going to require a lot of discipline, and this discipline could feel like suffering
This is a very good point, because you could "exercise" your discipline where ever you go (India, USA, etc.) through your routines, and as Oxajil said, this could feel like suffering. You could practice this by imposing certain routines on yourself, such a trying to go to bed, and wake up at the same time, exercising at certain moment of the day, having meal plans in advance. Perhaps the above may be a part of the answer to your questions about (un)necessary suffering.
 
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