Great Big Thank You
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Al Today
The Living Force
This thread appears to have gone 
, for which I apologize. Since there have been comments on my “mixed emotions”, I feel obligated to respond. So, here goes…
No. There is no love and light sympathy from me. Lately, I’ve been working on issues of internal anger. Rage actually, at this world I find myself within. Some have helped in pointing out references that have enabled growth of understanding and possible ways in channeling anger as a productive tool. I now attribute those “mixed emotions” to part of this learning experience. And speaking of anger…
Pointed statements, such as above may be based on assumptions, and be an excellent example that I fear a “slip of the tongue”. Perhaps your statements were given without background knowledge of the intended recipient? Would you like to hit me or something like that? That’s the feeling I get from your post. Were my comments from Self Importance or your comments perhaps Self Righteous?
, for which I apologize. Since there have been comments on my “mixed emotions”, I feel obligated to respond. So, here goes…Bear said:
No. There is no love and light sympathy from me. Lately, I’ve been working on issues of internal anger. Rage actually, at this world I find myself within. Some have helped in pointing out references that have enabled growth of understanding and possible ways in channeling anger as a productive tool. I now attribute those “mixed emotions” to part of this learning experience. And speaking of anger…
T.C. said:
Pointed statements, such as above may be based on assumptions, and be an excellent example that I fear a “slip of the tongue”. Perhaps your statements were given without background knowledge of the intended recipient? Would you like to hit me or something like that? That’s the feeling I get from your post. Were my comments from Self Importance or your comments perhaps Self Righteous?
Hi Al Today.
Re-read my post; only this time, read it in the knowledge that it was about guimondaniel and not you ;)
Don't regret your comments though. You're a human and you have the right to feel, and we're all here to learn.
You know, a funny thing; when I first got involved in this work, with this forum, I felt the need to apologise all the time - ALL THE TIME.
Now, after a while, I've come to HATE the word "sorry". It's a useless word; it was always my way of getting out of trouble - "Oh, I did something wrong? You might not like me anymore, and I can't let that happen so, I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry..... Phew, everythings fixed now."
For me, I've come to a new understanding of what constitutes a REAL apology. If I do something that hurts someone, I do everything I can to understand what I did and why I did it, Working, and when I see the truth about myself - I'm insensitive, internally considerate, attention seeking etc. etc. then I can try to change that. I can't think of any better way to truly apologise for my actions.
Of course, if someone ASKS for an apology, then I'll give one - if it'll make them feel better.
Here in this kind of school environment (and this is just my own subjective opinion and I could be completely out of line), I don't think there's any need to apologise for anything we do because:
1) One of the first things we learn is that we're all reaction machines; therefore, on a personal level, if someone says something insulting to me, I know that there was no conscious intention to hurt me. I can see these kinds of behaviour in myself and sympathise with the person.
2) The people here, as a collective, know the above point and so, shouldn't be so easily offended as people "out there".
3) This is a Working environment; a school for people who want to change, to BE - and that is a MUCHO difficult task and a very "hot kitchen". We're working with emotions here, and we don't know much about how to control them so the only way is to let the programmes run, get them out there in the light, and then we have a chance to examine them.
You feel like a child picking a fight in the school playground? Sounds like a good programme to work on - now that it's come out into the light.
T.C.
Re-read my post; only this time, read it in the knowledge that it was about guimondaniel and not you ;)
Don't regret your comments though. You're a human and you have the right to feel, and we're all here to learn.
You know, a funny thing; when I first got involved in this work, with this forum, I felt the need to apologise all the time - ALL THE TIME.
Now, after a while, I've come to HATE the word "sorry". It's a useless word; it was always my way of getting out of trouble - "Oh, I did something wrong? You might not like me anymore, and I can't let that happen so, I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry..... Phew, everythings fixed now."
For me, I've come to a new understanding of what constitutes a REAL apology. If I do something that hurts someone, I do everything I can to understand what I did and why I did it, Working, and when I see the truth about myself - I'm insensitive, internally considerate, attention seeking etc. etc. then I can try to change that. I can't think of any better way to truly apologise for my actions.
Of course, if someone ASKS for an apology, then I'll give one - if it'll make them feel better.
Here in this kind of school environment (and this is just my own subjective opinion and I could be completely out of line), I don't think there's any need to apologise for anything we do because:
1) One of the first things we learn is that we're all reaction machines; therefore, on a personal level, if someone says something insulting to me, I know that there was no conscious intention to hurt me. I can see these kinds of behaviour in myself and sympathise with the person.
2) The people here, as a collective, know the above point and so, shouldn't be so easily offended as people "out there".
3) This is a Working environment; a school for people who want to change, to BE - and that is a MUCHO difficult task and a very "hot kitchen". We're working with emotions here, and we don't know much about how to control them so the only way is to let the programmes run, get them out there in the light, and then we have a chance to examine them.
You feel like a child picking a fight in the school playground? Sounds like a good programme to work on - now that it's come out into the light.
T.C.
PepperFritz
The Cosmic Force
Excellent post, T.C., bang-on, IMHO.
"Apologies" really are kind of meaningless in this kind of learning environment. You either get it or you don't, and whether you've said "sorry" is neither here nor there. How many times have we seen a forum new-comer get his emotional reactions/inappropriate behaviour pointed out to him, at which point he immediately reacts to the "shock" by offering grovelling, obsequious apologies -- then immediately turns around and continues to carry on in the same previous fashion? Guimondaniel and this thread is a case in point. The more fawning the apology, the more I distrust the poster's sincerity/motivation, and the more manipulative it seems. The quicker the response, the less thought and consideration has been given to what has been communicated to him.
You've really made me think about the next time I feel compelled to say "Sorry" -- either on this forum or in the "real" world. Am I apologizing in order to (as you say) "get out of trouble", ingratiate myself, get someone off my back, show how "well mannered" or "superior" I am, etc etc? Am I being honest, or simply manipulative? Here on the forum, it seems to me that there are really only two ways to honestly respond: (1) Admit that you do not understand the criticism and ask for clarification; or (2) Demonstrate that you have taken the time and thought to understand and incorporate what has been said, and thank the person for helping you.
"Apologies" really are kind of meaningless in this kind of learning environment. You either get it or you don't, and whether you've said "sorry" is neither here nor there. How many times have we seen a forum new-comer get his emotional reactions/inappropriate behaviour pointed out to him, at which point he immediately reacts to the "shock" by offering grovelling, obsequious apologies -- then immediately turns around and continues to carry on in the same previous fashion? Guimondaniel and this thread is a case in point. The more fawning the apology, the more I distrust the poster's sincerity/motivation, and the more manipulative it seems. The quicker the response, the less thought and consideration has been given to what has been communicated to him.
You've really made me think about the next time I feel compelled to say "Sorry" -- either on this forum or in the "real" world. Am I apologizing in order to (as you say) "get out of trouble", ingratiate myself, get someone off my back, show how "well mannered" or "superior" I am, etc etc? Am I being honest, or simply manipulative? Here on the forum, it seems to me that there are really only two ways to honestly respond: (1) Admit that you do not understand the criticism and ask for clarification; or (2) Demonstrate that you have taken the time and thought to understand and incorporate what has been said, and thank the person for helping you.
Maybe there are different kinds of "sorry".
An internally considerate "sorry". A mechanical reaction allowing to deflect, escape, responsibility, to avoid facing the whole situation to quickly shove the problem under the rug and shitf intot something else.
An externally considerate and conscious "sorry", because you feel you've hurt someone so you aknowledge, respect and try to soothe this suffering by saying "sorry" and being "sorry" : trying to fix the mistake, to learn not do it again, to ease the situation of the other one.
OSIT
An internally considerate "sorry". A mechanical reaction allowing to deflect, escape, responsibility, to avoid facing the whole situation to quickly shove the problem under the rug and shitf intot something else.
An externally considerate and conscious "sorry", because you feel you've hurt someone so you aknowledge, respect and try to soothe this suffering by saying "sorry" and being "sorry" : trying to fix the mistake, to learn not do it again, to ease the situation of the other one.
OSIT
Belibaste said:Maybe there are different kinds of "sorry".
An internally considerate "sorry". A mechanical reaction allowing to deflect, escape, responsibility, to avoid facing the whole situation to quickly shove the problem under the rug and shitf intot something else.
An externally considerate and conscious "sorry", because you feel you've hurt someone so you aknowledge, respect and try to soothe this suffering by saying "sorry" and being "sorry" : trying to fix the mistake, to learn not do it again, to ease the situation of the other one.
OSIT
I couldn't agree more. It helps them to validate their own feelings, if they do feel hurt. Saying it can be mechanical and empty, but I don't think one can say for certain that an apology is meaningless. It could definitely matter, depending on the context. If one is aware and conscious, then you'll know when is the right time to say it. OSIT
Also:
T.C. said:
Yes, but what is that really doing for the other person? I understand why you would do that and I think it's a great thing to do. But it shouldn't be used as a reason to not apologize, when a situation may call for it.
Belibaste said:
Pinkerton said:
Good points guys.
I learned that when I do something selfish (for example) and end up hurting someone else, the immediate guilt I feel isn't guilt at all. It's not compassion for the other person, there's no contrition going on.
What it really is, is a deep sense of fear that my predator nature has been revealed - it's out there in the light and people can see me for what I really am.
In this case, saying sorry is like a misdirection for the other person while I usher my predator back under its rock. It's a manipulation to try and change what the other person thinks or feels in regards to me, because I don't want to lose a source of food.
This is how I came to hate the word sorry; because on my part, it was always a selfish and predatorial tactic for keeping a food source within reach.
T.C.
Buddy
The Living Force
Thanks to everyone for these views on "sorry". I just realized I said it twice on the forum, just today!
It occurred to me that there was a time in the past when I realized the general insincerity of "sorry" in any context where genuine sorrow or regret was not present, and I actually tried to stop saying it. That attempt at self-restraint didn't last long, however.
I found that the negative feedback that comes from people who were aware that I wasn't following the "traditional way" was too distracting and made the situation(s) too difficult to resolve, no matter how simple the issue at the time. I gave up and started saying it again without any further thought until today while reading this thread.
I am happy to have a place to express this understanding and will work harder to ensure that I don't have to say it anymore for the same reasons that I used to.
It occurred to me that there was a time in the past when I realized the general insincerity of "sorry" in any context where genuine sorrow or regret was not present, and I actually tried to stop saying it. That attempt at self-restraint didn't last long, however.
I found that the negative feedback that comes from people who were aware that I wasn't following the "traditional way" was too distracting and made the situation(s) too difficult to resolve, no matter how simple the issue at the time. I gave up and started saying it again without any further thought until today while reading this thread.
I am happy to have a place to express this understanding and will work harder to ensure that I don't have to say it anymore for the same reasons that I used to.
spyraal
Jedi Master
Hello everyone. Thank you also for this opportunity to think and discuss.
In my opinion, learning is for the most part a procedure of trial and error. How we deal or "fix" our sometimes unavoidable errors is also an important part of this procedure. And really, words like "sorry" and the lot are just that... words. They only cost half a breath, which is quite cheap for anyone. Our mistakes or misconceptions are only usefull when we are trully willing to see ourselves objectively and thus we use them to adjust and refine our paradigms and point of view. Only then an "error" becomes a "lesson" and we manage to neutralize these otherwise negative feelings and thought-forms into personal power and self-appreciation. And this is quite an achievement, as it is a form of conscious transformation or transmutation of emotional energies.
This is the "internal" part of the procedure. But as it concerns other people and the physical world, it is so much better for us to spare the "sorries" and the rivers of words and instead , take some initiative by acting and doing at least a gesture that reflects our ability to correct ourselves and our new, wider and more objective awareness. No words can substitute possitive actions in showing our ability to self-observe and self-correct. In the case of an internet forum like this one, "fixing" our errors -in my opinion- is more about taking time to think and having the patience and will to slowly recover from an "ego crisis" in a possitive way, to "transmute" the experience so to say. And sometimes this may require a period of internal concentration, but also silence. At the end, our errors are nothing but our personal challenges to grow further, and we should be happy to take on any such challenge after all! :)
In my opinion, learning is for the most part a procedure of trial and error. How we deal or "fix" our sometimes unavoidable errors is also an important part of this procedure. And really, words like "sorry" and the lot are just that... words. They only cost half a breath, which is quite cheap for anyone. Our mistakes or misconceptions are only usefull when we are trully willing to see ourselves objectively and thus we use them to adjust and refine our paradigms and point of view. Only then an "error" becomes a "lesson" and we manage to neutralize these otherwise negative feelings and thought-forms into personal power and self-appreciation. And this is quite an achievement, as it is a form of conscious transformation or transmutation of emotional energies.
This is the "internal" part of the procedure. But as it concerns other people and the physical world, it is so much better for us to spare the "sorries" and the rivers of words and instead , take some initiative by acting and doing at least a gesture that reflects our ability to correct ourselves and our new, wider and more objective awareness. No words can substitute possitive actions in showing our ability to self-observe and self-correct. In the case of an internet forum like this one, "fixing" our errors -in my opinion- is more about taking time to think and having the patience and will to slowly recover from an "ego crisis" in a possitive way, to "transmute" the experience so to say. And sometimes this may require a period of internal concentration, but also silence. At the end, our errors are nothing but our personal challenges to grow further, and we should be happy to take on any such challenge after all! :)
T.C. said:
Yes, this can be the case. My feeling is that your experience and learning in regards to this subject has caused you to project how you ran a certain program (apologizing as a feeding behavior) onto a whole 'nother world of scenarios. What then happens is that you start to internally consider. The above could be construed as that because nowhere do you consider how apologizing might affect the other person(s). Even if it is selfish and predatory, the act could be beneficial to other person. This is not to say that you shouldn't be analyzing your behavior and understanding when you are feeding. But it seems that to apply a blanket statement like "sorry is a useless word" is a form of internal consideration in and of itself. OSIT.
Johnno
The Living Force
Belibaste said:
This is more a conditioned "sorry" learnt from childhood. "Say sorry to your aunt." for examples when one of those "From the mouth of babes" moments occur. It is more based on morality ie societies expectations. And yes, it is mechanical.
Other examples have been given when it pays lip service to get out of a situation. Another "learned" behaviour I would say.
An externally considerate and conscious "sorry", because you feel you've hurt someone so you acknowledge, respect and try to soothe this suffering by saying "sorry" and being "sorry" : trying to fix the mistake, to learn not do it again, to ease the situation of the other one.
OSIT
This one as well as being conscious, comes from the remorse ofconscience.
Al Today
The Living Force
T.C. said:
BULLS EYE.!.!.! I do not like what is seen in the mirror and it does hurt. Yep, this is something I am currently working on. It’s a big ole bad program deeply embedded within the driving mainline program. I see this, but changing a lifetime of behavior is a huge task.
T.C. said:
Yes. And this also hurts.
Perhaps a main program here can be named The Predator. A few subroutines are manipulation, deceit, paranoia and anger.
Thank you all for pointing these things out. Talk is cheap and easy. Walking the talk is hard and takes practice, practice, and more practice. But ya gotta want to DO it and start somewhere.
