Gurdjieff and the octave

[ana]

I have just start Fragments of an unknown teaching after reading The fourth way, really Gurdjieff was able to explain in a practical way the internal processes of a man,
that just beginning to be aware understands the need of work.

As I was reading the fourth way I could establish direct links between the processes Gurdjieff speak of and my own experience, and also with some of other teachings like the concept of the mental aggregates in the Buddhist middle path, the weed Jesus talk about ( Several unnecessary selves of Gurdjieff), the Buddhist concept of attachment, Do not lay up stores of wealth for yourselves on earth, where the moth and wear-and-tear destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. Jesus parable (the Gurdjieff non-identification)...But there are still many things I failed to find parallels in other types of lessons and also to find in myself the related inherent truth.


Take the Ray of Creation as a succession of events, can be considered
as eighth. It is eighth in the downward direction of growth and differentiation.

I do not understand what has to do the eighth and how it works, Could someone explain it other way to see if I can understand? I'll be gratefull



Also reading Fragments of an unknown teaching there is something very interesting, In the chapter XII in order to give the others a clear example of what the essence is He undertake an experiment on the separation of the personality and the essence, the results make clear its teaching but Ouspensky does not explain the method used, Does anyone know if it has something to do with Hypnosis?

 

[Beau]

Re: Gurdjieff and the eighth

Also reading Fragments of an unknown teaching there is something very interesting, In the chapter XII in order to give the others a clear example of what the essence is He undertake an experiment on the separation of the personality and the essence, the results make clear its teaching but Ouspensky does not explain the method used, Does anyone know if it has something to do with Hypnosis?

Yes, I believe G used hypnosis to bring out the two pupil's essence.

 

[painter]

Re: Gurdjieff and the eighth

...But there are still many things I failed to find parallels in other types of lessons and also to find in myself the related inherent truth.

Take the Ray of Creation as a succession of events, can be considered
as eighth. It is eighth in the downward direction of growth and differentiation.

I do not understand what has to do the eighth and how it works, Could someone explain it other way to see if I can understand? I'll be gratefull

First I am new here and it may not be appropriate for me to even attempt to address your question. Moreover, it has been almost thirty years since I read "The Fourth Way." However, perhaps I can offer something to contemplate:

octave
(scale of 8 [infinite] inner and outer)
vibration
(energy/time/matter :: density\duration\frequency)
(descending [involution >> fragmentation] :: [remembrance << evolution] ascending)
denying /\ affirming
reconciling

"The higher blends with the lower to actualize the middle"​

It is not enough to seek answers or meaning in what we believe is the world outside our skin. The greatest and most wise words ever spoken or written can not help us if they are not met with something from within ourselves. Attention is the key to everything.

 

[painter]

Re: Gurdjieff and the eighth

Also reading Fragments of an unknown teaching there is something very interesting, In the chapter XII in order to give the others a clear example of what the essence is He undertake an experiment on the separation of the personality and the essence, the results make clear its teaching but Ouspensky does not explain the method used, Does anyone know if it has something to do with Hypnosis?

Yes, I believe G used hypnosis to bring out the two pupil's essence.

Pinkerton is correct but this begs the question, "what is hypnosis?" One can only proceed superficially without asking that question. Substances are an important consideration: Alcohol is one gross and obvious example often employed by Gurdjieff but it is the more subtle substances that are of significant interest.

 

[ana]

Re: Gurdjieff and the eighth

Now matter you are new here ( me too) I appreciate your dedication and your response,
about the octave, still not clear for me although I understand the process of rise and fall in different vibrations of the consciousness but I cannot see the reason of each differentiation you have done in each state,
I guess I am very familiar with the way that cassiopaeans try to explain it to us, and I can not really understand Gurdjieff when he moves to our reality other levels of consciousness.

I am really impressed that He used alcohol or other substances in their work, I do not understand He came to the need to use these methods

Thank you Painter, also thanks to Pinkerton :)

 

[anart]

Re: Gurdjieff and the eighth

I am really impressed that He used alcohol or other substances in their work, I do not understand He came to the need to use these methods.

Gurdjieff was rather well known for giving copious amounts of alcohol to his guests/students in order to see what aspects of their personalities emerged - what was behind any number of masks, as it were. If you've ever been in a situation with people who are attempting to present themselves in the best light, it is a very interesting experiment indeed, since the truth tends to 'slip out'.

I think, in the case of "I think I would like some raspberry jam", the situation which you appear to be referring, that some sort of post-hypnotic suggestion was used to put the personality 'to sleep' so the essence would come forward. At least this is my current understanding.

 

[SeekingtheTruth]

Re: Gurdjieff and the eighth

I thought it may be helpful to provide some more contextual information for the case of "I think I would like some raspberry jam". Perhaps a link would be better so as not to seem to diverge from Pryf's original question? It may be found here: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=11199.msg79641#msg79641, but I'm not sure how to properly provide the link such that the quote appears as the focus of the reader's attention when accessed.

Conversations in groups continued as usual. Once Gurdjieff said that he wanted to
carry out an experiment on the separation of personality from essence. We
were all very interested because he had promised "experiments" for a long
time but till then we had seen nothing. I will not describe his methods, I
will merely describe the people whom he chose that first evening for the
experiment.

One was no longer young and was a man who occupied a fairly prominent
position in society. At our meetings he spoke much and often about himself,
his family, about Christianity, and about the events of the moment connected
with the war and with all possible kinds of "scandal" that had very much
disgusted him.

The other was younger. Many of us did not consider him to be a serious
person. Very often he played what is called the fool; or, on the other hand,
entered into endless formal arguments about some or other details of the
system without any relation whatever to the whole. It was very difficult to
understand him. He spoke in a confused and intricate manner even of the most
simple things, mixing up in a most impossible way different points of view
and words belonging to different categories and levels.

I pass over the beginning of the experiment.

We were sitting in the big drawing room.

The conversation went on as usual.

"Now observe," G. whispered to us.

The older of the two who was speaking heatedly about something suddenly
became silent in the middle of a sentence and seemed to sink into his chair
looking straight in front of him. At a sign from G. we continued to talk
without looking at him. The younger one began to listen to the talk and then
spoke himself. All of us looked at one another. His voice had become
different. He told us some observations about himself in a clear, simple,
and intelligible manner without superfluous words, without extravagances,
and without buffoonery. Then he became silent; he smoked a cigarette and was
obviously thinking of something. The first one sat still without moving, as
though shrunken into a ball.

"Ask him what he is thinking about," said G. quietly.

"I?" He lifted his head as though waking up when he was questioned. "About
nothing." He smiled weakly as though apologizing or as though he were
surprised at anyone asking him what he was thinking about.

"Well, you were talking about the war just now," said one of us, "about what
would happen if we made peace with the Germans; do you still think as you
did then?"

"I don't know really," he said in an uncertain voice. "Did I say that?"

"Yes, certainly, you just said that everyone was obliged to think about it,
that no one had the right not to think about it, and that no one had the
right to forget the war; everyone ought to have a definite opinion; yes or
no-for or against the war."

He listened as though he did not grasp what the questioner was saying.
"Yes?" he said. "How odd. I do not remember anything about it."

"But aren't you interested in it?"

"No, it does not interest me at all."

"Are you not thinking of the consequences of all that is now taking place,
of the results for Russia, for the whole of civilization?"

He shook his head as though with regret.

"I do not understand what you are talking about," he said, "it does not
interest me at all and I know nothing about it."

"Well then, you spoke before of your family. Would it not be very much
easier for you if they became interested in our ideas and joined the work?"

"Yes, perhaps," again in an uncertain voice. "But why should I think about
it?"

"Well, you said you were afraid of the gulf, as you expressed it, which was
growing between you and them."

No reply.

"But what do you think about it now?"

"I am not thinking about it at all."

"If you were asked what you would like, what would you say?"

Again a wondering glance-"I do not want anything."

"But think, what would you like?"

On the small table beside him there stood an unfinished glass of tea. He
gazed at it for a long time as though considering something. He glanced
around him twice, then again looked at the glass, and said in such a serious
voice and with such serious intonations that we all looked at one another:
"I think I should like some raspberry jam."

"Why are you questioning him?" said a voice from the corner which we hardly
recognized.

This was the second "experiment."

"Can you not see that he is asleep?"

"And you yourself?" asked one of us.

"I, on the contrary, have woken up."

"Why has he gone to sleep while you have woken up?"

"I do not know."

With this the experiment ended.

Neither of them remembered anything the next day. G. explained to us that
with the first man everything that constituted the subject of his ordinary
conversation, of his alarms and agitation, was in personality. And when his
personality was asleep practically nothing remained. In the personality of
the other there was also a great deal of undue talkativeness but behind the
personality there was an essence which knew as much as the personality and
knew it better, and when personality went to sleep essence took its place to
which it had a much greater right.

"Note that contrary to his custom he spoke very little," said G. "But he was
observing all of you and everything that was taking place, and nothing
escaped him."

"But of what use is it to him if he also does not remember?" said one of us.
"Essence remembers," said G., "personality has forgotten. And this was
necessary because otherwise personality would have perverted everything and
would have ascribed all this to itself."

 

[kenlee]

Re: Gurdjieff and the eighth

Now matter you are new here ( me too) I appreciate your dedication and your response,
about the octave, still not clear for me although I understand the process of rise and fall in different vibrations of the consciousness but I cannot see the reason of each differentiation you have done in each state,

It may be that you really don't have to 'understand’ it. When studying it I don't worry if I don't understand it. Also, 'understanding' it does not mean I really understand it. I just may think I understand it.

The discipline of studying these ideas might be the most valuable thing about studying them. I know this helps me to “think like a hammer,” which can be applied to other things as well, which also includes studying the law of octaves and the ray of creation as described by Ouspensky and Mouravieff in their books. I think more important then understanding the law of octaves is the studying the ’how’ of our own thinking/reasoning processes as we study the ideas (such as how our mind breaks down the idea, how we research it, how we question its constituent elements, and how we take it apart in the process of studying it).

Later on perhaps, something about the idea that you studied earlier (but did not understand) might reveal itself when least expected. But even then that must be questioned.

The law of octaves is described as a linear sequence. But then there's nonlinearity. So how is this law to be understood within that context? You may think you ‘understand’ it. But does that really mean you understand it? I think the idea must be examined from all possible angles and the exercise of trying to understand it might be the most valuable thing about studying it.

 

[ana]

Re: Gurdjieff and the eighth

Thank you Kenlee

 

[ana]

Re: Gurdjieff and the eighth

I think, in the case of "I think I would like some raspberry jam", the situation which you appear to be referring, that some sort of post-hypnotic suggestion was used to put the personality 'to sleep' so the essence would come forward. At least this is my current understanding.

Yes that's exactly what I supposed Anart, I am surprised to see someone with the knowledge he had acquired
encouraging an inappropriate method to try to show themes which clearly become manifest when one has the
appropriate awareness.

Seems it was not time for their students and Gurdjieff must felt the loneliness of the one who cannot share

 

[anart]

Re: Gurdjieff and the eighth

Yes that's exactly what I supposed Anart, I am surprised to see someone with the knowledge he had acquired
encouraging an inappropriate method to try to show themes which clearly become manifest when one has the
appropriate awareness.

I'm curious as to why you would assume it was an 'inappropriate method'?

 

[ana]

Re: Gurdjieff and the eighth

I'm curious as to why you would assume it was an 'inappropriate method'?

I find difficult to answer your question, if someone would give me alcohol in order to prove something I will deny it, If someone would give alcohol to others to prove me something I will refuse to be witness of using other as if it were an experiment.

Alcohol hinders me correctly perceiving the body, make that the senses needed to see this reality get reduced, and I greatly appreciate inhabit a healthy body.

I understand that objectively what Gurdjieff look for was manifested, but I think that those of their students who saw what happened already covered this subject before, otherwise the experiment had not changed anything.

 

[anart]

Re: Gurdjieff and the eighth

I find difficult to answer your question, if someone would give me alcohol in order to prove something I will deny it, If someone would give alcohol to others to prove me something I will refuse to be witness of using other as if it were an experiment.

Alcohol hinders me correctly perceiving the body, make that the senses needed to see this reality get reduced, and I greatly appreciate inhabit a healthy body.

I understand that objectively what Gurdjieff look for was manifested, but I think that those of their students who saw what happened already covered this subject before, otherwise the experiment had not changed anything.

I could be mistaken, but I think you might be misunderstanding. It is not my understanding that alcohol was used to 'prove' anything - just that it was used, on occasion, as a bit of an experiment or as a means to perceive facets of personality that might otherwise remain hidden. You appear to have some very strong opinions about the use of alcohol that might be affecting your ability to grasp how its affects might be utilized in many different ways.

Also, as I stated previously, it appears that the 'raspberry jam' incident utilized some form of post-hypnotic suggestion, though I have no proof of this.

 

[John G]

Re: Gurdjieff and the eighth

Take the Ray of Creation as a succession of events, can be considered
as eighth. It is eighth in the downward direction of growth and differentiation.

I do not understand what has to do the eighth and how it works, Could someone explain it other way to see if I can understand? I'll be gratefull

Since the Ray of Creation is a cosmology, you can use (in addition to the Cs words on densities, etc.) math and physics.

The above written in 200 BC using Mt Meru as a symbol represents the dimensions of Clifford Algebra which is very very useful in physics. If you add all the numbers on a row you see that this sum goes up by a power of 2 as you go down the mountain. Clifford algebra also has an 8-fold periodicity so the Ray of Creation idea of going up in size by a power of 2 as you go down and also having a periodicity as you go down makes sense. The introduction in the Ray of Creation of 3 could be related to the property of Triality that gets picked up when you go from D to E in the A-D-E series (it's related to Clifford algebra). The idea of these bigger at the bottom, pointlike at the top structures with mortal/gods/worlds attached is somewhat popular:

From http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/TeildCh.html#SacreCoeur

Here I have somewhat modified an illustration of a Tibetan Stupa
(from The Mandala, by Martin Brauen (Shambhala 1997))
to compare it with a picture of Sacre Coeur
(from All Paris, by Giovanna Magi (Bonechi 1995).

The comparison is all the more vivid when
you realize that Sacre Coeur is atop Montmartre,
the Mountain of Martyrs
(named for St. Dionysius who was beheaded there around 258 AD),
the place where in 1871 hundreds of Communard Rebels
hid in the chalk mines, and were entombed there
when the Versailles troops blew up the exits.
1871 was also the year France lost the Franco-Prussian War,
and also about the time that Sacre Coeur was planned.
The previous year, 1870, French troops abandoned Rome,
and the Papal States of Pius IX were succeeded by Italian
patriots including Giuseppi Garibaldi.

Not only do the entombed Communards
correspond to the Underworld Realms,
but if you look below Sacre Coeur,
you see that its surrounding neighborhood,
at the base of Montmartre, is an area that today
has much Underworld activity, crime, and prostitution.


The Tibetan Stupa does not represent the plane of Original God,
but, if you interpret
the Human Realm of the Church, where the people worship,
to correspond to the Spiritual Nature of Humans,
and
the Underworld Realms, below the Church,
to correspond to the Material World of Humans,
then you have these correspondences:

[Clifford algebra and its 8-fold periodicity]

Cl(0) 1 R Abstract Beings
Cl(1) 1 1 C Light Beings
Cl(2) 1 2 1 Q Gods
Cl(3) 1 3 3 1 O Guardians

Cl(4) 1 4 6 4 1 S Spiritual Humans

Cl(5), Cl(6), Cl(7), and Cl(8) combine to form
Cl(8N) = Cl(8) (x)...(N times)...(x) Cl(8) Material Human World


The Material Human World stretches out below the Church,
not only as Montmartre, but as the City of Paris,
the Nation of France, and the Whole Earth.

...the central dome is surrounded by four other domes,
corresponding to the 4 directions, and with the central dome,
to the 5 elements of Taoism.
The highest point of Sacre Coeur,
the Bell Tower contains a 19-ton bell, the Savoyarde.
As you can see from the first photo,
the highest point, the Bell Tower, cannot be seen
by humans entering Sacre Coeur from the front,
much as humans cannot know the highest Tao.
Further, Sacre Coeur faces South, as would a Chinese palace.


The site of Sacre Coeur was not only named Montmartre
in honor of St. Dionysius, but was also the site
of a Benedictine abby founded in 1133 by Queen Adelaine of Savoy
and was visited by Saint Joan of Arc and Saint Ignatius Loyola.
The Montmartre neighborhood was frequented by artists,
including Marcel Duchamp, in the years leading up to World War I.
During World War I Teilhard refused a commission
and served as stretcher-bearer for Moroccans and Algerian Zouaves,
service for which he was awarded the Legion of Honor.
In 1919, after the end of the War, Sacre Coeur was completed.

There are other things like the 7-patterns (white keys) and 5-patterns (black keys) associated with an octave that may have some interesting math too. Gurdjieff's octave for the Ray of Creation is actually the 7-pattern.

http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/musPhys.html

 

[Johnno]

Re: Gurdjieff and the eighth

I am really impressed that He used alcohol or other substances in their work, I do not understand He came to the need to use these methods.

Gurdjieff was rather well known for giving copious amounts of alcohol to his guests/students in order to see what aspects of their personalities emerged - what was behind any number of masks, as it were. If you've ever been in a situation with people who are attempting to present themselves in the best light, it is a very interesting experiment indeed, since the truth tends to 'slip out'.

I think, in the case of "I think I would like some raspberry jam", the situation which you appear to be referring, that some sort of post-hypnotic suggestion was used to put the personality 'to sleep' so the essence would come forward. At least this is my current understanding.

I remember Laura mentioning that this was to show a person's true state with a loss of degree of shame and fear. I suppose in short a loss of inhibition.

It's not usually a pretty picture.