Gurdjieff and the octave

[Renaissance]

Re: Gurdjieff and the eighth

Gurdjieff was rather well known for giving copious amounts of alcohol to his guests/students in order to see what aspects of their personalities emerged - what was behind any number of masks, as it were. If you've ever been in a situation with people who are attempting to present themselves in the best light, it is a very interesting experiment indeed, since the truth tends to 'slip out'.

This makes me think of addiction in general and how it comes about through arrested development. Addiction seems to want to go back to the state where essence was stunted, perhaps it comes from some sense of the overbearing false personality.

The past weeks I was seeing someone who I recently learned was an alcoholic. When I didn't take on her problems as my own, she became more and more manipulative, which was most noticeable when she was drinking. I was surprised how easy it was to 'untie the knot' when I told her I'd only spend time with her when she's not drinking. It is also interesting how her highly intellectual personality was irritating me (it's mostly interesting to me because I often live 'in my head'). I can only imagine how irritated her essence was from it.

 

[Buddy]

Re: Gurdjieff and the eighth

This makes me think of addiction in general and how it comes about through arrested development.

I tend to think this also. It seems just because we physically mature (grow up), it by no means indicates that any other part of us has developed.

Addiction seems to want to go back to the state where essence was stunted, perhaps it comes from some sense of the overbearing false personality.

Maybe something similar to the idea of addiction beginning life as an 'escape' from an overbearing false personality?
Sort of like when, during my formative years, I caved in to a particular overbearing individual in order to become 'a good boy'. Having accepted the demands on me, I internalized this person as a reference point for my behavior and effectively had my own personal inner petty tyrant - complete with self-imposed guilt for any transgressions.
Then, at some later point in life, when I begin experimenting with alcohol or substances or activities, and discover that I get some temporary relief from the internal barrage on the self, the desire to continue the activity becomes irresistible. A need has been filled.

 

[Buddy]

Re: Gurdjieff and the eighth

I am really impressed that He used alcohol or other substances in their work, I do not understand He came to the need to use these methods.

Gurdjieff was rather well known for giving copious amounts of alcohol to his guests/students in order to see what aspects of their personalities emerged - what was behind any number of masks, as it were.

Considering the incredible amount of responsibility Gurdjieff imposed on himself in order to educate his students, and the fact that the students desired and agreed to be taught by Gurdjieff, I see the alcohol technique to be both desirable and appropriate within this context. Also, and I could be mistaken, but it seems the nature of the technique requires deception (otherwise the students would be 'on guard'), and the right/permission to use the technique is implied in this particular master-student relationship due to the type of lessons involved.

Today, I'm a non-drinker by choice, (although I have no aversion to an occasional glass of wine at dinner or before bed) but, I can think of uses for this technique when deciding who one's friends, acquaintances and associates should be. And this is based just on what I've learned from my own experience regarding alcohol and 'the dropping of the masks'.

 

[Renaissance]

Re: Gurdjieff and the eighth

Maybe something similar to the idea of addiction beginning life as an 'escape' from an overbearing false personality?
Sort of like when, during my formative years, I caved in to a particular overbearing individual in order to become 'a good boy'. Having accepted the demands on me, I internalized this person as a reference point for my behavior and effectively had my own personal inner petty tyrant - complete with self-imposed guilt for any transgressions.

I'm glad you brought this a step further. Elan Golomb's 'Trapped in the Mirror' describes it in terms of the negative introject, i.e. the internalized negative parent, which seems to open the door to accept and internalize a pathological society and our ponerization. It goes to show just how many of our interactions with one another are not our own and lacking the qualities of the human self.

Then, at some later point in life, when I begin experimenting with alcohol or substances or activities, and discover that I get some temporary relief from the internal barrage on the self, the desire to continue the activity becomes irresistible. A need has been filled.

This need seems important. The irresistible need to seek out an escape through addiction appears to come from the same need to escape from the control system ...or maybe vise versa. The latter need seems to have progressed in it's multilevelness.

 

[Buddy]

Re: Gurdjieff and the eighth

Thanks for the comments, Los.

I haven't read Elan Golomb's 'Trapped in the Mirror' yet. At present, I am mining the forum for most everything I need, but I'll be happy when the day comes when I can invest in the books I'd like to have, because I know I'll need to develop my understanding in more directions and with more detail.

 

[Buddy]

Re: Gurdjieff and the eighth

After thinking about this awhile and re-reading the thread:
Negative Introject (from Chapter 18 in "Trapped in the Mirror), I have a very strong sense that the 'caving in' point, or, the point where one gives up the struggle (through apathy or some sense of "what's the use?") may be the exact point where one 'turns around' and begins looking at oneself through the eyes of the tyrant. This, being the mirror analogy.

This seems to be a strong argument for never giving up - not even temporarily - the hope to be able to overcome any challenge. Lessons seem to come when you're ready for them, and a struggle just means "ok, here's the next lesson, it's time to learn...[fill in the blank]"

 

[ana]

Re: Gurdjieff and the eighth

Since the Ray of Creation is a cosmology, you can use (in addition to the Cs words on densities, etc.) math and physics.

Thanks Bluelamp, I will take some time to try to understand what you've post to me

 

[ana]

Re: Gurdjieff and the eighth

You appear to have some very strong opinions about the use of alcohol that might be affecting your ability to grasp how its affects might be utilized in many different ways.

Yes I've noticed it when trying to answer your question

 

[John G]

Re: Gurdjieff and the eighth

Since the Ray of Creation is a cosmology, you can use (in addition to the Cs words on densities, etc.) math and physics.

Thanks Bluelamp, I will take some time to try to understand what you've post to me

One other thing to keep in mind is that there are kind of two paths, biology and physics, where the Cs, Gurdjieff, and science get related. The Cs rather directly related the densities to chakras and centers and the head-heart-gut biology of the chakras and centers shows up in Gurdjieff's Enneagram too which has the octave. On the physics side, Ark and the Cs talk about things like 4 spacelike and two timelike dimensions and this relates to a Clifford Algebra Cl(4,2) and Clifford Algebra seems related to the Ray of Creation which also has an octave.

Even though it's all related to densities and octaves, it's two seperate uses of the octave since the biology of an individual and the physics of the universe are two different (though obviously related) systems. It actually even seems to be two different properties of an octave. An octave is actually quite complicated with the white keys and black keys and the way chords are put together. The octave of the Ray of Creation seems most directly related math-wise to basis vectors and octonionic imaginaries while the octave of the Enneagram seems most directly related math-wise to root vectors and bivectors. I've seen parts of the octave related to both of these things math-wise but the Ray of Creation and Enneagram and centers and chakras and octaves can certainly have been created to say more than what they most directly seem to say. They weren't created to be mathematically precise.