Heavy Relationship Woes
- Thread starter mocachapeau
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mocachapeau
Dagobah Resident
Hi Luthien,
After discussing the aforementioned ideas, my wife and I have decided to put off my moving out to concentrate on creating a situation at home that might be more agreeable for us. We are getting a more complete idea of what elements are the source of our tension, so if we can eliminate them, or at least some of them, we may have something. Although, the one subject that seems to be the greatest source of frustration for us is the way she deals with the kids. And I am not sure how I can help her with that, other than by being patient and supportive, because it is something she needs to work on, herself. The thing is, when I am at home and the kids won't listen to her she just gets angry at them and then turns that anger towards me when I don't come to her rescue. And when I'm not there she often makes decisions that go against rules that have already been established, simply to avoid their reactions when they don't get what they want from her. But after all of this, she is beginning to see the importance of confronting that problem, so my confidence in a positive outcome is rising.
The kids have reacted pretty well to it, as well. Obviously the initial shock was hard on them, but they are dealing very well with it. They don't seem to have let it get them down or let it affect how they function on a daily basis, but that may be because I haven't moved out yet. Regardless, they are doing just fine for the moment.
My wife and I have decided not to tell them right away about our decision to keep trying. It was only a little more than a week ago that we dropped a bomb on them, so I don't think it would be a great idea to put them on an emotional roller-coaster. I was never in any hurry to leave because I wanted to find a place that was close by, so they may not ask questions for a while. And we should see how well our ideas bear fruit before we tell them I'm staying. The idea of taking things slowly in order to keep people from getting hurt looks like the best approach, even if we did not apply it originally.
By the way, while talking to my wife this evening about the ways in which you fine forum members have helped me, she asked me to thank you all, from her. She said she was really convinced we had made the right choice to separate and was determined to go through with it. But the things you all pointed to helped her to see that, although she thinks it will take a lot of effort, we still have something special that is worth any effort to try and save.
So a big thank you from A****, and another from me. We don't know how this will end but we aren't giving up until we are thoroughly convinced that we have really tried everything. Onwards and upwards!
After discussing the aforementioned ideas, my wife and I have decided to put off my moving out to concentrate on creating a situation at home that might be more agreeable for us. We are getting a more complete idea of what elements are the source of our tension, so if we can eliminate them, or at least some of them, we may have something. Although, the one subject that seems to be the greatest source of frustration for us is the way she deals with the kids. And I am not sure how I can help her with that, other than by being patient and supportive, because it is something she needs to work on, herself. The thing is, when I am at home and the kids won't listen to her she just gets angry at them and then turns that anger towards me when I don't come to her rescue. And when I'm not there she often makes decisions that go against rules that have already been established, simply to avoid their reactions when they don't get what they want from her. But after all of this, she is beginning to see the importance of confronting that problem, so my confidence in a positive outcome is rising.
The kids have reacted pretty well to it, as well. Obviously the initial shock was hard on them, but they are dealing very well with it. They don't seem to have let it get them down or let it affect how they function on a daily basis, but that may be because I haven't moved out yet. Regardless, they are doing just fine for the moment.
My wife and I have decided not to tell them right away about our decision to keep trying. It was only a little more than a week ago that we dropped a bomb on them, so I don't think it would be a great idea to put them on an emotional roller-coaster. I was never in any hurry to leave because I wanted to find a place that was close by, so they may not ask questions for a while. And we should see how well our ideas bear fruit before we tell them I'm staying. The idea of taking things slowly in order to keep people from getting hurt looks like the best approach, even if we did not apply it originally.
By the way, while talking to my wife this evening about the ways in which you fine forum members have helped me, she asked me to thank you all, from her. She said she was really convinced we had made the right choice to separate and was determined to go through with it. But the things you all pointed to helped her to see that, although she thinks it will take a lot of effort, we still have something special that is worth any effort to try and save.
So a big thank you from A****, and another from me. We don't know how this will end but we aren't giving up until we are thoroughly convinced that we have really tried everything. Onwards and upwards!
ana
The Living Force
mocachapeau said:
Hi mocachapeau,
Thinking in your kids seems to me it would be a good idea to honestly and openly explain them yours decision, please consider that even if it is not evident they are sure emotionally affected and the communication is necessary not only between parents but also with childs.
What realy matters as I see it is that whatever decision you take, you show to them clearness.
mocachapeau
Dagobah Resident
I have to admit that, even if I am trying to avoid a series of emotional ups and downs, I never felt comfortable with the idea of not being totally honest. You're probably right - I'll talk to my wife first and see what she thinks.
Thanks for the advice.
Thanks for the advice.
mocachapeau said:
I think you need to be more externally considerate toward your wife. If you are at home and the kids don't listen to her, remember that she has been through a LOT and needs immediate support and enforcement of what she says to the kids from you.
Did it ever occur to you that she does not have confidence enough to say things and make it stick with the kids because they manipulate her and play on guilt feelings that were inculcated into her from childhood... that "being nice" is such a strong program that she needs help and support to change it?
So, you start being really tuned in and aware of what is going on in the dynamic between her and the children. When you are in another room and you hear her tell them something, get up and go to the door and observe their reaction. If they seem recalcitrant, tell them "You heard what your mother said... do it."
Then, go and stand by your wife, put your arm around her, and SHOW the children that there is a united "parental unit." SHOW respect for her. LISTEN to her! Never criticize her in front of the children. Always build her up in their eyes as the most wise and loving person in your life and theirs. Emphasize that the role of the woman/wife/mother is to be the heart and touchstone of creativity in the family. Praise her efforts to prepare meals and manage the children and their lives. Let her know - and the children - that you appreciate all her efforts.
If there is any disagreement between you about what the rules are for the children, do NOT discuss that in front of them, discuss it between you privately . Come to an agreement and then support each other at all times.
Children are naturally emotionally greedy, self-centered manipulators and must be shown by example and teaching that these behaviors are not acceptable. Of course, children become much less greedy and manipulative when THEY are getting what they need (even if that is firm boundaries and rules).
It's your job to set the example for your children as to how to treat your wife. Your relationship with her is a living, ongoing, teaching drama, so whatever you want your children to learn, you do it yourself!
mocachapeau said:
It is extremely unfair for you to not tell them that the two of you have discussed it further, that you have decided that your family is worth more effort because you both love the children so much, and you are going to be working on yourselves, your interactions, and there are going to be a number of "changes" that will help to make everyone happier.
mocachapeau said:
That is why a network is better than trying to solve life's problems alone. Even with the best of intentions, one person, or two, cannot see all the angles and possibilities that a group can see.
mocachapeau said:
I hope that both of you will make some dietary changes and include the children in these changes so as to give yourselves the best physiological foundation for success.
dant
The Living Force
[Another general observation]
From all the threads I have read so far, what is it about
"getting older", having gone through all of the emotions,
of learning to raise a family, of holding down a (demanding)
job, of losing it and regaining it, of money problems, of having
many forms of sex for the stake of sex/pleasure/kids, of
juggling around parental responsibilities, of having minor/major
health issues of all forms and fully understanding its impacts,
that over time, might lead to changes in one's personalities
and/or attitudes? What is it about knowledge gained by
"life experiences", that one ought to be constantly aware
of such changes, of it's potential impact towards one's
relationships towards their spouse, family, and friends?
Is it the responsibility of both spouses to keep that "spark"
alive, lest the desire to continue may lose it's "lustre"?
Relationships ought to be a "two-way street", nurturing,
caring, aware of each other's feelings, fulfilment, supportive,
and so on. It requires constant awareness, and it is not
always so easy to maintain 24/7, and it requires careful
attention to details.
Perhaps we have heard, many times, when one reaches the
"end of the road", spouses come to the realization that they
have forgotten about each other through all the "hustle and
bustle", or with the "empty house" syndrome, or for other
reasons that can greatly impact their relationships towards
one another?
When it comes right down to it, it really depends on the
commitment of spouses and of their loved ones, to seriously
consider their present situation and to come face to face
with objective reality, and hopefully choose the best course
of action that benefits all parties affected in this relationship?
If one cannot reconcile with one another, perhaps a third party
could be of benefit, such as family/health/psychological counselling?
FWIW,
Dan
From all the threads I have read so far, what is it about
"getting older", having gone through all of the emotions,
of learning to raise a family, of holding down a (demanding)
job, of losing it and regaining it, of money problems, of having
many forms of sex for the stake of sex/pleasure/kids, of
juggling around parental responsibilities, of having minor/major
health issues of all forms and fully understanding its impacts,
that over time, might lead to changes in one's personalities
and/or attitudes? What is it about knowledge gained by
"life experiences", that one ought to be constantly aware
of such changes, of it's potential impact towards one's
relationships towards their spouse, family, and friends?
Is it the responsibility of both spouses to keep that "spark"
alive, lest the desire to continue may lose it's "lustre"?
Relationships ought to be a "two-way street", nurturing,
caring, aware of each other's feelings, fulfilment, supportive,
and so on. It requires constant awareness, and it is not
always so easy to maintain 24/7, and it requires careful
attention to details.
Perhaps we have heard, many times, when one reaches the
"end of the road", spouses come to the realization that they
have forgotten about each other through all the "hustle and
bustle", or with the "empty house" syndrome, or for other
reasons that can greatly impact their relationships towards
one another?
When it comes right down to it, it really depends on the
commitment of spouses and of their loved ones, to seriously
consider their present situation and to come face to face
with objective reality, and hopefully choose the best course
of action that benefits all parties affected in this relationship?
If one cannot reconcile with one another, perhaps a third party
could be of benefit, such as family/health/psychological counselling?
FWIW,
Dan
Buddy
The Living Force
Hi mocachapeau. I'm glad you shared this and got some great feedback. I couldn't think of anything to offer until I noticed dant's signature line.
If we can assume for the sake of discussion, that your kids will someday recapitulate this event or this particular time of their life, it might seem beneficial to be sure you are able to provide accurate facts and circumstances of everything that is done - especially when it involves emotional trauma to children. This will be of help to you and your wife as well, I think.
I personally repressed a great deal surrounding the announcement of my mother and father's split when I was 9 years old. It's very easy for memories such as this to become heavily skewed and distorted over time.
:)
If we can assume for the sake of discussion, that your kids will someday recapitulate this event or this particular time of their life, it might seem beneficial to be sure you are able to provide accurate facts and circumstances of everything that is done - especially when it involves emotional trauma to children. This will be of help to you and your wife as well, I think.
I personally repressed a great deal surrounding the announcement of my mother and father's split when I was 9 years old. It's very easy for memories such as this to become heavily skewed and distorted over time.
:)
mocachapeau
Dagobah Resident
Laura said:
I do understand that I need to be more externally considerate, particularly in light of all she has been through, and I am already making more of an effort with that. But I can assure you that I am extremely tuned in and aware of the dynamic between them, and I've been getting up to go to the door and saying precisely the words you wrote, for years.
But I think you are only partially right about why she does it. My wife had a nine-year-old daughter when I met her, and I began supporting her in this way back in 1994, although in a more secondary role because I am not the father. She asked me for advice on how to deal with it, but was unable to follow it - she found it to be too hard. Yes, I believe you are right that there is a guilt factor involved, and that is what makes it particularly hard for her where the children are concerned, but I think there is more to it.
You see, the way my wife has always dealt with pretty much anything is by using the "quick fix" method. So as soon as she finds herself confronted with anything that calls for a solution, she chooses the fastest, easiest way to fix it. And there is absolutely no thought whatsoever about any possible negative repercussions. And I'm not only talking about things with the kids, I mean anything. And it doesn't matter if I point out the possible negative repercussions and suggest a different solution that might avoid them, she will ignore it all and go ahead and do it anyway. She just wants it to "go away" as quickly as possible, no matter what it is. Later, we are forced to deal with the repercussions. So add an acute aversion to any kind of conflict, and a fear of upsetting a child in any way, and this becomes particularly problematic. It was just yesterday, while discussing this very topic, with regards to the children, that she said, "well you know how we tend to just go for the easiest way to fix things". We??
Laura said:
In the past we may have confronted each other in front of the children more than we should have - even once is more than we should have - but we stopped doing that at least five or six years ago. Things are much better, but I realize that our behaviour played a part in creating the existing dynamic in the household. It's the "Come to an agreement and then support each other at all times" part that causes a lot of problems.
You see, it's easy to say, but if my wife won't respect that, what am I supposed to do? I swear to you that there is almost no agreement that she won't break. And I know it's because of her insecurities, but seriously, what am I supposed to do?
I hate doing this, but I feel I have to give an example so you have a better idea of what I'm talking about.
We come home from work one day and my wife flips out because the kids are eating in the living room and leaving crumbs and such all over the couch and the carpet. So I come to her side and together we lay down a rule about no more eating in the living room. Twenty-four hours later, I come home from work to find the kids eating on the couch in the living room. I ask them what the heck they're doing and remind them of the rule we lay down just yesterday, and they throw my favorite sentence at me, "Mommy already said yes." So I go and ask my wife if this is true and she says, "Well we can make exceptions sometimes." But it is hardly an exception the very first day, because the boundary has never been established! I didn't question her in front of the kids, but are the kids not already fully aware of what has just happened? There isn't anything I can do to prevent it, and this has been going on for years. If talking to her about it doesn't change anything, what options do I have?
I really do support her when I am at home, and I never get angry about these things anymore, either at her or the kids. I just end up standing there with a dumb look of incredulity on my face, and then try to talk to my wife after the kids have gone to bed. But after years of this, it doesn't seem to have any effect.
I know that because I have described myself as a product of a narcissistic family that there are a number of assumptions that are made about me and what I am writing here, but the damage being done in these situations is not about how hard it is for me to deal with. It's about the kids and the effect this is having on them. Or am I still just sounding selfish?
truth seeker
The Living Force
mocachapeau said:
I'll preface this by saying that I don't have kids but was a nanny/caretaker for a few years.
You've touched a bit on what may be one of the problems. She may not want the feel like the bad guy by saying no to the kids and therefore gives in on issues hoping that the problem will resolve itself. I think you're correct when you say this does more harm than good. In my experience when children are pushing boundaries, what's really being asked for is discipline/order. It's perfectly natural for them to test - we all want what we want.
You may want to revisit this issue with her by asking why she feels uncomfortable with confronting the kids or better yet what she feels when she finds herself in these situations.
I used to really have problems with confrontation and saying "no". What I ended up doing was telling people that I needed to think about it. This bought me enough time to think about what action I wanted to take so that I lessened the chance of causing confusion as well as appearing flaky to people.
Perhaps you can suggest that she tells the kids that she needs to speak with you about whatever the issue is and that they will have to wait. Yes, it will probably be strange to say this over what seems like non issues, but I think what it will do is create a space for her to become aware of what comes up for her in these situations as well as provide some back up when you get home. It will also further cement the idea for the kids that mom and dad are unified (I'm sure that they unconsciously and consciously wait for her to be alone before asking for many things.).
Eventually with practice, she may become more comfortable making decisions on her own especially as she notices the change in the kids behavior. She may also then start backing you up on decisions!
[quote author=mocachapeau]
But she doesn't believe in aliens, doesn't believe in channeling, and really doesn't understand what any of this is about. At one point, because of something I had said about organized religion, she thought I no longer believed in God. We worked that one out, too. But the fact is, without any real understanding of the importance of what we do here, it is hard for her to attach any great value to it. This tends to make her regard the work as a kind of a pass-time - like reading fiction.[/quote]
The thing is, we don't believe in aliens either, at least not in the way they are presented. And we don't "believe" in channeling. It's just an experiment and no belief is invested a priori in the results. If your wife believes in God, then I presume she believes in "heaven"? The thing is, the reality of aliens is closer to "angels" that live in "heaven" than to martians from space. 4D is "heaven", denziens of it are "aliens" of different types.
[quote author=mochachapeau]
One thing that has improved while being faced with this mess is our communication. We are being more open and honest with each other about more things than we ever have been before. I think that is a result of finding ourselves in a position with nothing to lose.[/quote]
I think this is singularly THE most important thing in a relationship, and in finding out if it is the right relationship. I mean, how can you do that if you don't tell each other what you like, feel, think, want, need, including all the little petty or silly thoughts that infest our minds and can turn into big scary beliefs if we don't diffuse them by telling someone? An intimate relationship is one of the VERY few means available to people to purify themselves of the many destructive programs installed in us in childhood, but so few people are able to this because of the programs themselves! It takes a LOT of courage to open up to another person and tell them all the little petty things that we deny and repress and feel guilty about, but how can we expect to really know and therefore love another (and ourselves) if we don't bring them out into the light of day?
But she doesn't believe in aliens, doesn't believe in channeling, and really doesn't understand what any of this is about. At one point, because of something I had said about organized religion, she thought I no longer believed in God. We worked that one out, too. But the fact is, without any real understanding of the importance of what we do here, it is hard for her to attach any great value to it. This tends to make her regard the work as a kind of a pass-time - like reading fiction.[/quote]
The thing is, we don't believe in aliens either, at least not in the way they are presented. And we don't "believe" in channeling. It's just an experiment and no belief is invested a priori in the results. If your wife believes in God, then I presume she believes in "heaven"? The thing is, the reality of aliens is closer to "angels" that live in "heaven" than to martians from space. 4D is "heaven", denziens of it are "aliens" of different types.
[quote author=mochachapeau]
One thing that has improved while being faced with this mess is our communication. We are being more open and honest with each other about more things than we ever have been before. I think that is a result of finding ourselves in a position with nothing to lose.[/quote]
I think this is singularly THE most important thing in a relationship, and in finding out if it is the right relationship. I mean, how can you do that if you don't tell each other what you like, feel, think, want, need, including all the little petty or silly thoughts that infest our minds and can turn into big scary beliefs if we don't diffuse them by telling someone? An intimate relationship is one of the VERY few means available to people to purify themselves of the many destructive programs installed in us in childhood, but so few people are able to this because of the programs themselves! It takes a LOT of courage to open up to another person and tell them all the little petty things that we deny and repress and feel guilty about, but how can we expect to really know and therefore love another (and ourselves) if we don't bring them out into the light of day?
mocachapeau
Dagobah Resident
First I would like to tell everyone that we have informed the children that we have decided not to separate and have told them, as Laura put it, "that you have decided that your family is worth more effort because you both love the children so much, and you are going to be working on yourselves, your interactions, and there are going to be a number of "changes" that will help to make everyone happier." They are extremely happy and most visibly relieved.
Speaking for myself, I understand that what I need to concentrate on is more external consideration of my wife, and a renewed effort in giving her the support she needs in all areas. I think that what I've been feeling is a certain amount of frustration building up over the years due to the things I've mentioned in previous posts, and I have let that become the focus of my attention. Those things are real and ever present, but so are my children, my wife and the love I have for them. I've become pretty darned good at my relationships with my children, but I think I have done so at the expense of my relationship with my wife. So I am going to put all my efforts toward giving myself to them all, and stop thinking that I can only give so much.
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. They can't learn the right things from the experience if they don't have a clear understanding of what happened, and why.
That has always been my take on it, as well. Unfortunately that has always left me to be the bad guy, and after a while I began to resent that. But I need to stop focusing on resentment and thinking more about understanding, and just continue leading by example.
THAT is good advice. If I can encourage her to do a little self-observation we may be able to isolate the specific source of the fear. Maybe then she will see that there is no reason to feel like a bad guy because of saying no to the kids, that there really isn't anything to be afraid of. Of course, if she makes this change she's REALLY going to need my support because the kids' immediate reaction is going to be to push even harder until they see that she won't budge.
Oddly enough, that is the same advice I gave my wife fifteen years ago with respect to her daughter. They were frequently getting into screaming matches whenever her daughter would ask for something and my wife would say no. What I observed at the time was that my wife tended to say no awfully quickly, without giving any thought to the matter. After they fought and her daughter shut herself in her room, my wife would then ask herself if she really needed to say no in the first place. Then she would change her mind and give her what she wanted. Obviously this was teaching her daughter that all she had to do was have a screaming fit and she would get what she wanted - and it worked every time.
I suggested she not say no immediately, take the time to think about it and then give her answer. This way she would at least feel confident in her decision and could then ignore the reaction. Unfortunately it didn't work so well because, not being her father, I wasn't in a very good position to back my wife up in the necessary way when the screaming fit came on. But in this case they are my kids, and as you say, I can provide the back up she needs.
Speaking for myself, I understand that what I need to concentrate on is more external consideration of my wife, and a renewed effort in giving her the support she needs in all areas. I think that what I've been feeling is a certain amount of frustration building up over the years due to the things I've mentioned in previous posts, and I have let that become the focus of my attention. Those things are real and ever present, but so are my children, my wife and the love I have for them. I've become pretty darned good at my relationships with my children, but I think I have done so at the expense of my relationship with my wife. So I am going to put all my efforts toward giving myself to them all, and stop thinking that I can only give so much.
Buddy said:
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. They can't learn the right things from the experience if they don't have a clear understanding of what happened, and why.
truth seeker said:
That has always been my take on it, as well. Unfortunately that has always left me to be the bad guy, and after a while I began to resent that. But I need to stop focusing on resentment and thinking more about understanding, and just continue leading by example.
truth seeker said:
THAT is good advice. If I can encourage her to do a little self-observation we may be able to isolate the specific source of the fear. Maybe then she will see that there is no reason to feel like a bad guy because of saying no to the kids, that there really isn't anything to be afraid of. Of course, if she makes this change she's REALLY going to need my support because the kids' immediate reaction is going to be to push even harder until they see that she won't budge.
truth seeker said:
Oddly enough, that is the same advice I gave my wife fifteen years ago with respect to her daughter. They were frequently getting into screaming matches whenever her daughter would ask for something and my wife would say no. What I observed at the time was that my wife tended to say no awfully quickly, without giving any thought to the matter. After they fought and her daughter shut herself in her room, my wife would then ask herself if she really needed to say no in the first place. Then she would change her mind and give her what she wanted. Obviously this was teaching her daughter that all she had to do was have a screaming fit and she would get what she wanted - and it worked every time.
I suggested she not say no immediately, take the time to think about it and then give her answer. This way she would at least feel confident in her decision and could then ignore the reaction. Unfortunately it didn't work so well because, not being her father, I wasn't in a very good position to back my wife up in the necessary way when the screaming fit came on. But in this case they are my kids, and as you say, I can provide the back up she needs.
Perceval said:
Buddy
The Living Force
mocachapeau said:
This is good to hear. If you are really that sensitive to 'B' influences, or 'signs', then perhaps there might come some 'comfirmation' of this choice?
My overall subjective impression of your posts was that you have a lot of patience and forebearance to work with, and these 'signs to wait' were cautions against 'pushing' a solution into existence. Perhaps a challenge to expand your limits? There is still much to learn about your wife, children and yourself, and if you will trust the Work, I believe you will see the solution unfold naturally as you continue to learn about "you and yours".
That might not help with immediate problems of discipline and "who's gonna clean up those crumbs?" :), but even when a genius doctor faces a mystery case he has a plan...1st, do no (more) harm, right?
Way to go, moca!
