Holocaust denier Irving is jailed

[scollon]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4733820.stm

British historian David Irving has been found guilty in Vienna of denying the Holocaust of European Jewry and sentenced to three years in prison.
He had pleaded guilty to the charge, based on a speech and interview he gave in Austria in 1989.

"I made a mistake when I said there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz," he told the court in the Austrian capital.

Irving appeared stunned by the sentence, and told reporters: "I'm very shocked and I'm going to appeal."

An unidentified onlooker told him: "Stay strong!".

Irving's lawyer said he considered the verdict "a little too stringent".

"I would say it's a bit of a message trial," said Elmar Kresbach.

But Karen Pollock, chief executive of the UK's Holocaust Educational Trust disagreed. "Holocaust denial is anti-Semitism dressed up as intellectual debate. It should be regarded as such and treated as such," Ms Pollock told the BBC News website.

Fears that the court case would provoke right-wing demonstrations and counter-protests did not materialise, the BBC's Ben Brown at the court in Vienna said.


Irving arrived in the court room handcuffed, wearing a blue suit, and carrying a copy of Hitler's War, one of many books he has written on the Nazis, and which challenges the extent of the Holocaust.

Irving was arrested in Austria in November, on a warrant dating back to 1989, when he gave a speech and interview denying the existence of gas chambers at Auschwitz.

He was stopped by police on a motorway in southern Austria, where he was visiting to give a lecture to a far-right student fraternity. He has been held in custody since then.

'I've changed'

During the one-day trial, he was questioned by the prosecutor and chief judge, and answered questions in fluent German.

He admitted that in 1989 he had denied that Nazi Germany had killed millions of Jews. He said this is what he believed, until he later saw the personal files of Adolf Eichmann, the chief organiser of the Holocaust.

"I said that then based on my knowledge at the time, but by 1991 when I came across the Eichmann papers, I wasn't saying that anymore and I wouldn't say that now," Irving told the court.

"The Nazis did murder millions of Jews."

In the past, he had claimed that Adolf Hitler knew little, if anything, about the Holocaust, and that the gas chambers were a hoax.



Timeline: David Irving
Denying the Holocaust

In 2000, a British court threw out a libel action he had brought, and declared him "an active Holocaust denier... anti-Semitic and racist".

On Monday, before the trial began, he told reporters: "I'm not a Holocaust denier. Obviously, I've changed my views.

"History is a constantly growing tree - the more you know, the more documents become available, the more you learn, and I have learned a lot since 1989."

Asked how many Jews were killed by Nazis, he replied: "I don't know the figures. I'm not an expert on the Holocaust."

Of his guilty plea, he told reporters: "I have no choice."

He said it was "ridiculous" that he was being tried for expressing an opinion.

"Of course it's a question of freedom of speech... I think within 12 months this law will have vanished from the Austrian statute book," he said.

 

[scollon]

This is scandalous but Irving only has himself to blame for letting himself be portrayed as a nazi by his own actions.

 

[Laura]

It is sad, too. Irving should know that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

When the issue came up a few years ago, QFG undertook to study the matter. The researchers dug up documents, read books, discussed, did the numbers, and concluded that it was a certainty that Hitler and Co were definitely out to annihilate the Jews and that they DID kill millions of them. Yes, it is true that later "counts" suggest that the numbers might not be as high as initially claimed, but that is somewhat irrelevant. It is the essence of the crime that is important here: the Nazis consciously and deliberately intended to annihilate the Jews just as the Jews want to annihilate the Palestinians today. This is particularly reprehensible since many, if not most, of the Palestinians are descended from Jews that converted to Islam. As I wrote in Vol IV of The Wave:

In recent years the idea has taken hold that the Ashkenazi Jews are really Turkish and not Jews at all. Recent genetic studies place the Ashkenazi as closest in kinship to Roman Jews on one side, who are just a small step away from Lebanese non-Jews, and Syrian non-Jews on the other. The Syrian non-Jews are very close to the Kurdish Jews and the Palestinian non-Jews - i.e. the “Palestinians”

What actually seems to have happened is that when the Khazar kingdom “converted” to Judaism, as described above, they invited Jewish rabbis to come and teach them how to be proper Jews. These rabbis, being “proper Jews”, took Khazar wives, mixing with the Khazar population in this way. Additionally, after the fall of the Khazar kingdom, Yiddish-speaking “Jewish” immigrants from the west (especially Germany, Bohemia, and other areas of Central Europe) - which would include Roman Jewish lines, began to flood into Eastern Europe, and it is believed that these newer immigrants intermarried with the Khazars. Thus, Eastern European Jews have a mix of ancestors who came from Central Europe and from the Khazar kingdom. The two groups (eastern and western Jews) intermarried over the centuries.

In this sense, the Ashkenazi Jews are, indeed, descendants of the Israelites through the male line.

“Analysis of the Y chromosome has already yielded interesting results. Dr. Ariella Oppenheim of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem said she had found considerable similarity between Jews and Israeli and Palestinian Arabs, as if the Y chromosomes of both groups had been drawn from a common population that began to expand 7,800 years ago.

About two-thirds of Israeli Arabs and Arabs in the territories and a similar proportion of Israeli Jews are the descendents of at least three common prehistoric ancestors who lived in the Middle East in the Neolithic period, about 8,000 years ago. This is the finding of a new study conducted by an international team of scholars headed by Prof. Ariella Oppenheim, a senior geneticist in the Hebrew University’s hematology department and at Hadassah Hospital in Jerusalem. In the study, soon to be published in the scientific journal ‘Human Genetics’, the researchers probed the history of Jewish and Arab men by analyzing the genetic changes in the Y chromosome.[…]

The results of the study, says Prof. Oppenheim, ‘support the historical documentation according to which the Arabs are descendents of an ancient population of the country and that a large proportion of them were Jews who converted to Islam after Islam reached Eretz Israel in the seventh century CE’. […]

They […] discovered that Jews and Arabs have common prehistoric ancestors who lived here until just the last few thousand years..[…] In view of the small geographical area of Israel and the Palestinian Authority, the researchers were surprised to discover that some Palestinians on the West Bank have a unique genetic trait that is reflected in a relatively high frequency of certain genetic signs. This fact indicates that they are the descendents of people who have lived here for a few hundred years at least. […] Dr. Filon says that the unique genetic trait is characteristic of a population that has lived in the same place for many generations. (Tamara Traubman. “A new study shows that the genetic makeup of Jews and Arabs is almost identical, and that both groups share common prehistoric ancestors.” Ha’aretz (2000))

Data on the Y chromosome indicates that the males originated in the Middle East, while the mothers’ mitochondrial DNA seems to indicate a local Diaspora origin in the female community founders.

We have analyzed the maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA from each of nine geographically separated Jewish groups, eight non-Jewish host populations, and an Israeli Arab/Palestinian population, and we have compared the differences found in Jews and non-Jews with those found using Y-chromosome data that were obtained, in most cases, from the same population samples. The results suggest that most Jewish communities were founded by relatively few women, that the founding process was independent in different geographic areas, and that subsequent genetic input from surrounding populations was limited on the female side. In sharp contrast to this, the paternally inherited Y chromosome shows diversity similar to that of neighboring populations and shows no evidence of founder effects. These sex-specific differences demonstrate an important role for culture in shaping patterns of genetic variation and are likely to have significant epidemiological implications for studies involving these populations. We illustrate this by presenting data from a panel of X-chromosome microsatellites, which indicates that, in the case of the Georgian Jews, the female-specific founder event appears to have resulted in elevated levels of linkage disequilibrium.

The emerging genetic picture is based largely on two studies, […] that together show that the men and women who founded the Jewish communities had surprisingly different genetic histories.[…]

A new study now shows that the women in nine Jewish communities from Georgia, the former Soviet republic, to Morocco have vastly different genetic histories from the men. […] The women’s identities, however, are a mystery, because, unlike the case with the men, their genetic signatures are not related to one another or to those of present-day Middle Eastern populations.[…]

The new study, by Dr. David Goldstein, Dr. Mark Thomas and Dr. Neil Bradman of University College in London and other colleagues, appears in The American Journal of Human Genetics this month.... His [Goldstein’s] own speculation, he said, is that most Jewish communities were formed by unions between Jewish men and local women, though he notes that the women’s origins cannot be genetically determined.[…]

Like the other Jewish communities in the study, the Ashkenazic community of Northern and Central Europe, from which most American Jews are descended, shows less diversity than expected in its mitochondrial DNA, perhaps reflecting the maternal definition of Jewishness. But unlike the other Jewish populations, it does not show signs of having had very few female founders. It is possible, Dr. Goldstein said, that the Ashkenazic community is a mosaic of separate populations formed the same way as the others.[…]

‘The authors are correct in saying the historical origins of most Jewish communities are unknown’, Dr. [Shaye] Cohen [of Harvard University] said. ‘Not only the little ones like in India, but even the mainstream Ashkenazic culture from which most American Jews descend.’[…] If the founding mothers of most Jewish communities were local, that could explain why Jews in each country tend to resemble their host community physically while the origins of their Jewish founding fathers may explain the aspects the communities have in common, Dr. Cohen said.[…]

The Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA’s in today’s Jewish communities reflect the ancestry of their male and female founders but say little about the rest of the genome... Noting that the Y chromosome points to a Middle Eastern origin of Jewish communities and the mitochondrial DNA to a possibly local origin, Dr. Goldstein said that the composition of ordinary chromosomes, which carry most of the genes, was impossible to assess.” (Nicholas Wade. “DNA, New Clues to Jewish Roots.” The New York Times (May 14, 2002): F1 (col. 1))

These studies suggests the idea that some of the early ancestors of the ancient Levant and Mesopotamian civilizations originated in the region of Armenia and moved southwards - that they were “Semitic” the same way Sargon was. Further, the Tanach records extensive evidence of intermarriage between Jews and ancient peoples who originated in eastern Anatolia, such as the Hittites and Hurrians (including the Jebusites of Jerusalem). The Edomites who were of mixed Hebrew and Hurrian ancestry were also absorbed into the Jewish people. The Armenians and Kurds are the descendants of people who remained in Eastern Anatolia, Armenia and Kurdistan, subsequently intermarrying with the Turks and neighboring peoples. So, we see the idea of the “Ten Lost Tribes”, or even the “Thirteenth Tribe” to be myths exploded by the science of genetics.

Another important point from Oppenheim’s work is that the Arabs are descendents of an ancient population of the country and that a large proportion of them were Jews who converted to Islam. In other words, the Palestinians are closer in kinship to the original “Jews” that inhabited “Israel” than the current day Jews that are primarily of Ashkenazi stock.

In short, if one is to take seriously (as the Zionists declare we must) that Israel was given to the Jews by God, then the Jews that it was given to are the ancestors of the Palestinians. That, of course, raises all kinds of interesting problems, not the least of which is the genocide of the real, ancient line of Jews being completed by Ashkenazi Jews.

I should also note that the Nazis also intended to exterminate the Poles - those that weren't "germanic." That is probably because there were so many mixed marriages in Poland for a long time that this was seen as a way to also get at the Jews "in disguise" not to mention the fact that the Germans wanted their country much as the Jews today want the country of those other, ancient Semites, the Palestinians.

 

[scollon]

Well I read the Lipstadt team's (in the Irving trial) book and came to the conclusion that their argument was paper thin and that Irving was correct in saying there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz. Even the BBC recently said that the gas chambers had been destroyed by the nazis and a Jewish film maker filmed the Auschwitz curator admitting the chamber there today was built after the war. Also there isn't a single dcument that refers to a delberate extermination policy, the Lipstast lawyers said the Nazis used code. I'd prefer to believe Irving.

Yes, some Jews were deliberately killed but the idea of moving them hundreds of miles to a foreign country when it could have been done in Germany makes no sense at all. Further, the Americans admitted they were lying and there were no gas chambers in Germany, that is extremely suspicious. The fact it is punishable by 10 years in prison in Austria and Germany to be a revisionist is a bit of an obvious clue there is something massive to hide. You can be a nazi and promote fascism but not question the holocaust, do me a favour !


Now Irving has been stupid enough to lie to get himself off the hook and they still put him in jail. What a victory for the rulers this has been.

 

[Yossarian]

Ahhhh, so now I see, said the blind man! Laura, your post was a piece of the puzzle that put the whole Middle East picture into much clearer perspective when cross referenced with the C material re: Hitler and the Holocaust and why Hitler was trying to exterminate the Jews! WoW

Of course, WWII appears to only have been a "dress rehearsal," (or perhaps a snack!) not really intended to succeed, just lay the groundwork for the extermination that is in the works now for Palestine and the Middle East--which looks like it is intended to succeed! (IMHO)

 

[Guest]

It's interesting that Irving was not a denier, but a revisionist who lowered the numbers of the slain by a few million. That is what does not make sense (regarding the fascist reactions of Holocaustists). "Yes, Jews died, but not as many as you say". One would think such an assertion would provoke scientific debate at worst. Instead the H-Inquisition starts coming out of the woodwork and arresting people!

What the pro-Z's are afraid of is that THEIR holocaust will cease being THE Holocaust, and that people will start paying attention that there are many holocausts past and present. That will lower the guilt-tripping effectiveness of the Z's and reveal that those currently allied to them including the Z's themselves were and are holocaust perpetuators at a level that makes Nazis look like schoolyard bullies.

It seems that there are far more factions than just the Zionists in whose best interest it is to keep the sham going. In any case, any excuse to terrorize, repress and control is embraced by the powers that be these days.

As for Irving's "Galileo Maneuver", he who fights and runs away lives to fight another day. Apparently, however, his accusers don't buy his "conversion" and want to make an example out of him. Like it or not, this man may have been already chosen for martyrdom, which is interesting in itself because the last thing the Z's want is a martyr.

 

[Laura]

I think that we may not know what kinds of pressures were put on Irving to make him recant. In any event, I think it is pretty hypocritical of Austria to complain about Arnie executing people while they are killing people's souls.

 

[scollon]

It is spectacularly hypocritical of Austria to prosecute Irving when sanctions were threatened to be taken against them by the EU for electing a partly Neo Nazi government . They had to remove Hitler apologist Heider.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/630028.stm

 

[baklavatsky]

You're in France: you shouldn't even be having this discussion!

you could be jailed for that!

I believe that there is a plan of the Zs to let some info be known to the public, gradually, that there were not 4 millions but 1.1 millions dead in Auschwitz, that there were no GasChambers, etc. David Cole went coldly through all the official soviet version of Auschwitz atrocities, interviewed Frank Piper Head of the Aschwitz archive and museum, and found out it all was a big lie.

I believe the Zs want their minions to expose the scam, but this new version they are revealing is also a lie: that nazis had no plan to exterminate certain groups, that this is slanderous baseless accusation (this is Faurisson's thesis).

Many holocaust deniers are linked to white supremacist or downright neonazi groups or authors, or promote David Duke. Even Michael Collins Piper praises David Duke! (I am suspicious of Michael Collins Piper since I learned that he praises David Duke...).

Many peple wake up to the Z conspiracy, so Cointelpro is out there ready to lead them from antizionism to revisionism, then to neonazi groups, white supremacists groups, etc. Where will it leads?