How can I write better?

[luke wilson]

How can I write posts that convey maturity & good communication? Language has always been a weak point for me since forever. I was raised bilingual but I think a major part of my problem with language is that when I was growing up, I mixed both languages into a form of hybrid. So essentially, say I'm talking English then I come across something I don't know what word to use, I would substitute with a swahili word and vice versa. This was ok whilst communicating informally e.g. at home or with peers but sadly it also meant that I didn't take the time to know (and be able to follow the rules of) either language.

Furthermore, it sort of messed my thinking patterns up because usually you think following the patterning of a language, osit. In addition, you communicate following the pattern of your thinking and these 2 things basically act like a self enclosed loop (thinking following language and language following thinking).

I'm definitely not unique on this front as I know other people who pretty much had the same sort of experience with the mish mash of language but who have really good command of the individual languages. Maybe it could be a predisposition? Languages were always my weakest point and I dropped them all at 16 in terms of formal study.

When I reread my posts, I notice that sentence structure, vocabulary, grammar, spelling etc are horrendous (tbh). On top of that, I notice that taking it in all as a whole, my posts purely on a communication front portray immaturity. On this point, it's a contrast to my actual character. My character is molded around discipline and respect for authority (cultural upbringing). Contrast to my posts which portray lack of discipline e.g. to maintain grammar, to spell correctly, to not shift between lines of thinking. As a result I also think they portray lack of attention to detail. On this last point, it's a true portrayal of my mental structure, that is, I can more easily deal with wider patterns than smaller details.

So, to conclude, how can I go about making better posts? I'm asking because for a long time (forever), communication for me has been exceptionally weak and I need to improve it, starting by communicating on paper better. What I would like to see when I read over something I've written is a sense of maturity and cohesion plus the appropriate use of words. How to make that happen? If I can do that then hopefully I can make my thinking cohesive & mature.

 

[Turgon]

How can I write posts that convey maturity & good communication?

....

So, to conclude, how can I go about making better posts? I'm asking because for a long time (forever), communication for me has been exceptionally weak and I need to improve it, starting by communicating on paper better. What I would like to see when I read over something I've written is a sense of maturity and cohesion plus the appropriate use of words. How to make that happen? If I can do that then hopefully I can make my thinking cohesive & mature.

The first thing that comes to mind is to pause and take time to reflect on what it is you are trying to convey and why before hitting the post button. It's a good exercise in cohesion because you have to consider things beforehand and if your thoughts are disjointed, it will give you a chance to make any adjustments and corrections that you are able to see so that not only you can better understand what you are communicating but it will make it easier for whoever's reading or listening to understand you better.

 

[Keit]

The first thing that comes to mind is to pause and take time to reflect on what it is you are trying to convey and why before hitting the post button. It's a good exercise in cohesion because you have to consider things beforehand and if your thoughts are disjointed, it will give you a chance to make any adjustments and corrections that you are able to see so that not only you can better understand what you are communicating but it will make it easier for whoever's reading or listening to understand you better.

I agree with Turgon. So considering the above, how about trying something creative? You wrote:

As a result I also think they portray lack of attention to detail. On this last point, it's a true portrayal of my mental structure, that is, I can more easily deal with wider patterns than smaller details.

This is of course just an idea, but how about learning how to write Haiku poems? Not exactly how they are explained here, but for example, think over the longer text that you wrote (like your first post in this thread) and try to make a short, three lines Haiku style poem out of it that would convey the essence of what you were trying to say or ask. At the beginning it may seem impossible, especially if you are usually quite verbal in your written communication. But it will not only allow you to pause and think over what you said, but also learn how to construct your written language in a more concise way, and especially if it is easier for you to deal with bigger patterns.

 

[MusicMan]

Luke, for what it's worth, I find your writings articulate and lucid.
So stop worrying and keep networking.
I'm sure we'll ask you if there are any points that need to be clarified.

 

[bjorb]

Hi luke

[quote author=LW]As a result I also think they portray lack of attention to detail. On this last point, it's a true portrayal of my mental structure, that is, I can more easily deal with wider patterns than smaller details.[/quote]

I don't know of what I have written applies. But lack of attention can also be a lack of connection. With that I mean. Maybe it isn't so much about writing or language skills per se. But more about connection and caring for the person(s) you're talking to.

If you speak from the hearth. It comes more natural to find the right words and you will also be more carefully of how the other might read or understand your comment. Examining your post before sending is all about external consideration after all.


[quote author= LW]When I reread my posts, I notice that sentence structure, vocabulary, grammar, spelling etc are horrendous[/quote]

Sound like my life I suppose, but I am blessed that I really wouldn't know if it is correct or not. I can't write or read that great. Of course grammar helps.But whatever, in the end. It’s the content that carries that message. ;) I wouldn't worry about it to much.

 

[Joe]

So, to conclude, how can I go about making better posts?

I suggest you read through your post before submitting it, with an eye for the things you would like to see in your post, including conciseness, clarity and relevance, simple sentence structure etc.

 

[Foxx]

I think it's good that you recognized this, Luke. I personally find your posts to be generally long winded, stream of consciousness, and that it takes a long time for you to make a point--I find them difficult to read. I think it'd help to work on making your posts concise and to the point without as much stream of consciousness text in them. It may help to think about others when you're posting and consider the way you might write to a boss, co-worker, or client, considering that they're busy and you want to make their lives easier by getting your point across quickly and effectively. It may also help to try to fit everything you're writing into one or two paragraphs generally (and not wall of text paragraphs), to force yourself to be succinct.

 

[Joe]

I also think other forum members can help you in this task by responding to your 'stream of consciousness' posts with short concise answers rather than similarly long posts. This way you might be able to learn by example.

 

[Chad]

For myself, i found the following very helpful - bearing in mind the parts by Orwell are relating to politics, but as Data demonstrates, it is very useful, and only polite, when trying to use external consideration:

Good writing style as defined by George Orwell

George Orwell is best known for his novels, but he was also an essayist. One such essay is about writing and it is called Politics and the English Language (follow the link for the raw text of the essay).

He connects poor writing to poor thought:

[It] is clear that the decline of a language must ultimately have political and economic causes: it is not due simply to the bad influence of this or that individual writer. But an effect can become a cause, reinforcing the original cause and producing the same effect in an intensified form, and so on indefinitely. [...] The point is that the process is reversible. Modern English, especially written English, is full of bad habits which spread by imitation and which can be avoided if one is willing to take the necessary trouble. If one gets rid of these habits one can think more clearly, and to think clearly is a necessary first step toward political regeneration: so that the fight against bad English is not frivolous and is not the exclusive concern of professional writers.

Then he gives some examples about bad writing style, analyzes them, and gives some recommendations for good writing style. He continues:

In our time it is broadly true that political writing is bad writing. [...] When one watches some tired hack on the platform mechanically repeating the familiar phrases [...] one often has a curious feeling that one is not watching a live human being but some kind of dummy [...] A speaker who uses that kind of phraseology has gone some distance toward turning himself into a machine. The appropriate noises are coming out of his larynx, but his brain is not involved as it would be if he were choosing his words for himself. If the speech he is making is one that he is accustomed to make over and over again, he may be almost unconscious of what he is saying, as one is when one utters the responses in church. And this reduced state of consciousness, if not indispensable, is at any rate favorable to political conformity. In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible.

Then he presents some rules for application in daily life, because he thinks that the "decadence of our language is probably curable":

(i) Never use a metaphor, simile, or other figure of speech which you are used to seeing in print.

(ii) Never us a long word where a short one will do.

(iii) If it is possible to cut a word out, always cut it out.

(iv) Never use the passive where you can use the active.

(v) Never use a foreign phrase, a scientific word, or a jargon word if you can think of an everyday English equivalent.

(vi) Break any of these rules sooner than say anything outright barbarous.

And i may be wrong, but:

How can I write posts that convey maturity & good communication? Language has always been a weak point for me since forever. I was raised bilingual but I think a major part of my problem with language is that when I was growing up, I mixed both languages into a form of hybrid. So essentially, say I'm talking English then I come across something I don't know what word to use, I would substitute with a swahili word and vice versa. This was ok whilst communicating informally e.g. at home or with peers but sadly it also meant that I didn't take the time to know (and be able to follow the rules of) either language.

[...]
So, to conclude, how can I go about making better posts? I'm asking because for a long time (forever), communication for me has been exceptionally weak and I need to improve it, starting by communicating on paper better. What I would like to see when I read over something I've written is a sense of maturity and cohesion plus the appropriate use of words. How to make that happen? If I can do that then hopefully I can make my thinking cohesive & mature.

Part of what i understood joining the forum was how language reflects our thinking, and so in this instance, is it a matter of 'conveying' maturity and good communication? It seems that although it helps to 'fake it before you make it', neither can come easily before work on the self, and that they go together. Of course there are simple rules with structure that seem to work regardless. Fwiw.

 

[luke wilson]

How can I write posts that convey maturity & good communication?

....

So, to conclude, how can I go about making better posts? I'm asking because for a long time (forever), communication for me has been exceptionally weak and I need to improve it, starting by communicating on paper better. What I would like to see when I read over something I've written is a sense of maturity and cohesion plus the appropriate use of words. How to make that happen? If I can do that then hopefully I can make my thinking cohesive & mature.

The first thing that comes to mind is to pause and take time to reflect on what it is you are trying to convey and why before hitting the post button. It's a good exercise in cohesion because you have to consider things beforehand and if your thoughts are disjointed, it will give you a chance to make any adjustments and corrections that you are able to see so that not only you can better understand what you are communicating but it will make it easier for whoever's reading or listening to understand you better.

Roger that! :)

This is of course just an idea, but how about learning how to write Haiku poems? Not exactly how they are explained here, but for example, think over the longer text that you wrote (like your first post in this thread) and try to make a short, three lines Haiku style poem out of it that would convey the essence of what you were trying to say or ask. At the beginning it may seem impossible, especially if you are usually quite verbal in your written communication. But it will not only allow you to pause and think over what you said, but also learn how to construct your written language in a more concise way, and especially if it is easier for you to deal with bigger patterns.

Thanks Keit. I did some light reading on Haiku last night and it seems kind of hard... I'm planning on doing some more reading later on + maybe watching a couple of youtube videos on it to better understand it. :)

Luke, for what it's worth, I find your writings articulate and lucid.
So stop worrying and keep networking.
I'm sure we'll ask you if there are any points that need to be clarified.

Lucid and articulate is not something I'd have expected to hear. It might be in some instances. My impressions though, over the general pattern of my posts over a period of time is that of messiness/disjointedness/uncontrollable flow of thoughts. But thanks for essentially saying the situation is not irredeemable!

So, to conclude, how can I go about making better posts?

I suggest you read through your post before submitting it, with an eye for the things you would like to see in your post, including conciseness, clarity and relevance, simple sentence structure etc.

Roger. :)

I think it's good that you recognized this, Luke. I personally find your posts to be generally long winded, stream of consciousness, and that it takes a long time for you to make a point--I find them difficult to read. I think it'd help to work on making your posts concise and to the point without as much stream of consciousness text in them. It may help to think about others when you're posting and consider the way you might write to a boss, co-worker, or client, considering that they're busy and you want to make their lives easier by getting your point across quickly and effectively. It may also help to try to fit everything you're writing into one or two paragraphs generally (and not wall of text paragraphs), to force yourself to be succinct.

Thanks for letting me know. The long windedness is through inability to be concise, the stream of consciousness is through inability to control the flow of thoughts, the taking a long time to make a point is through inability to be as straight as an arrow when it comes to writing. OSIT.

I should say that I have a very specific deficiency which is that I miss nuances/subtlety not only in written communication but in real life interactions. Somehow my brain rarely registers these finer elements of human interaction especially in real-time and even in written words - like a form of blindness. It's kind of mildly autistic in this regard. As a consequence it definitely affects a lot of things when it comes to interaction in terms of relevance and striking chords of understanding/rapport.

Itellsya, thanks for that post from Data.

 

[Renaissance]

Thanks for letting me know. The long windedness is through inability to be concise, the stream of consciousness is through inability to control the flow of thoughts, the taking a long time to make a point is through inability to be as straight as an arrow when it comes to writing. OSIT.

Abilities like this aren't innate. They take practice. It's more about putting attention into making unclear or excessive thoughts more defined and less excessive through revision.

 

[Keit]

Thanks Keit. I did some light reading on Haiku last night and it seems kind of hard... I'm planning on doing some more reading later on + maybe watching a couple of youtube videos on it to better understand it. :)

Well, it isn't really necessary or required. ;) It is just an idea for an exercise, that may be helpful in learning how to see the essence or main points of every message, and how this essence could be translated into a written word in a most optimal and concise way. Perhaps there are other, similarly effective methods out there.

 

[Renaissance]

Thanks Keit. I did some light reading on Haiku last night and it seems kind of hard... I'm planning on doing some more reading later on + maybe watching a couple of youtube videos on it to better understand it. :)

Well, it isn't really necessary or required. ;) It is just an idea for an exercise, that may be helpful in learning how to see the essence or main points of every message, and how this essence could be translated into a written word in a most optimal and concise way. Perhaps there are other, similarly effective methods out there.

Ben Franklin had an exercise he used to improve his writing skills. He imitated essays from a literary magazine by rewriting the content in his own words. He would also rewrite the content in prose and then back again in the original style. He came back to it later later to examine how well his ideas accurately described those of the original, where his thoughts were lacking or deficient, and where his ideas may have even improved on the content:

About this time, I met with an odd volume of the Spectator. I had never before seen any of [these magazines]. I bought it, read it over and over, and was much delighted with it. I thought the writing excellent, and wished if possible to imitate it. With that view, I took some of the papers, and making short hints of the sentiments in each sentence, laid them by a few days, and then, without looking at the book, tried to complete the papers again, by expressing each hinted sentence at length, and as fully as it had been expressed before, in any suitable words that should occur to me. Then I compared my Spectator with the original, discovered some of my faults, and corrected them. But I found I wanted a stock of words, or a readiness in recollecting and using them, which I thought I should have acquired before that time [. . .] since the continual search for words of the same import, but of different length to suit the measure, or of different sound for the rhyme, would have laid me under a constant necessity of searching for variety, and also have tended to fix that variety in my mind, and make me master of it. Therefore I took some of the tales in the Spectator, and turned them into verse; and, after a time, when I had pretty well forgotten the prose, turned them back again.

[. . .] By comparing my work with the original, I discovered many faults, and corrected them; but I sometimes had the pleasure to fancy, that, in certain particulars of small consequence, I had been fortunate enough to improve the method or the language, and this encouraged me to think that I might in time come to be a tolerable English writer, of which I was extremely ambitious.

--Benjamin Franklin, "Autobiography." The Works of Benjamin Franklin

 

[Neil]

I thought the reference to poetry was interesting.

In my opinion, the most important things relevant to this discussion are tone and having an "emotional dictionary." The English language has many synonyms and different ways to phrase something with similar meaning when read for informational content, however my opinion is that each synonymous word or phrase has a different emotional connotation that will have a specific impact, or convey a certain impression to the audience. This is subtle, and not really taught in school (although debate classes may approach it obliquely) but you can pick it up in literature. This is actually the work of poets, to say something that is "profoundly beautiful," which engages the emotional center while speaking to the intellect. Words and phrases are carefully weighed so that their emotional carry value is as aligned with the author's state of mind and intentions as possible, and parallel sentence structure is employed which gives them a repetitive wavelike effect that increases the penetration of the information; kind of like rhythms in music. I don't consider myself a poet, but I did study some of their techniques and adapted them to my prose writing.

This idea is closely related to tone. Since this forum has always identified itself as a research forum, the tone should be scholarly. On the other hand, since much of the material is of an esoteric nature that is oftentimes highly abstract and can only be understood in stages, the tone should be modified to be scholarly but not authoritative, if we wish to remain honest with ourselves. There are some parts of the forum that are more "chatty" or "grounded," but maintaining a "humble scholar" tone suits me for the vast majority of the discussions I participate in here. Also, most of the people who are sincerely interested in the material have delved extensively into the recommended reading, which gives your audience (the forum) a relatively homogenous emotional dictionary to write for once you have become "grooved" to it.

As for Orwell's rules, I generally agree, but I do bend 2&3 quite a bit. Long words should not be used to frivolously over intellectualize a discussion, but sometimes they have subtle differences or nuance that more accurately communicate the impressions that I am trying to get across. Also, shortening sentences too much interrupts the flow of my writing and makes the concepts seem disjointed. I have modified it; sentences should have the highest possible overall signal to noise ratio at whatever level of eloquence is appropriate for the situation, but content should not be sacrificed to satisfy a smaller word count, even if the sacrifice is tiny.

As for my overall posting style, I try to go into the maximum level of detail without going off topic or repeating myself. When combined with my scholarly tone, this tends to makes sentences very long, often averaging over 30 words each. Commas and semicolons are your friends, although it requires you plan sentence structure quite a bit in order to follow an idea through to its conclusion without getting the reader lost in your words. It is not uncommon for me to spend an hour rereading and editing a relatively meager 500 word post in order to get the "feel" precisely the way I want it.

Lastly, this style of writing is only appropriate for what I consider to be academic, philosophical, or nuanced technical types of discussions. It is way overkill for most situations in everyday exterior life, where formulaic and "sound byte" responses are the norm, but it will come in handy from time to time.

So I think the short and simple answer to your question is adopting Orwell's rules while maintaining a scholarly tone unless you're on one of the "chatty" boards will go a long way to improving how you present yourself and how you're understood here.

 

[luke wilson]

I admire the way you write Neil. As you say, it comes across quite refined and intellectual to! Most of all, you are able to deal with intricacies of the subject you are writing about which is something I can only dare dream about. You are quite nimble, whereas in comparison I feel like an 18 wheeler. I've always wondered how you came to be like this. I reached the conclusion that you are naturally gifted. Other people in the forum that I think write similarly to you are Obyvatel and Approaching Infinity. There writing style is of a high intellectual order and sometimes it might as well be Greek when they engage in conversation between themselves. One thing you all have in common is that you are all well-read.. But and excuse this stream of consciousness, is it that you are well-read that you speak this way or is it that you read-well because you speak this way i.e. is your style a window into your psychical foundation?

Then there are people who just flow. It's like there is no incongruency between their thoughts and their words. They speak normally but with such fluency/flow - in realtime. I'm usually left thinking, how? Tbh, the majority of the population falls into this category.

For me, when I talk, I have no idea what words will come out of my mouth. Sometimes I'm wonderfully surprised, other times, it's a car crash in slow motion. It appears to me that peoples minds somehow map out what they will say/how they will say it, before they say it. That's the only way I can explain people not running into constant problems mid-sentences i.e. not flowing/not being disjointed. However, this is not in accordance with an article I read on SOTT a while back, that essentially said people hear themselves talk to know if what they are saying makes sense or not.

Usually for me, when it comes to talking, in my mind I'd know what kind of response is required e.g. to a question, but the formation of that response into cohesive non-disjointed sentences is something I can't map as efficiently/effectively as others. For the life of me, I can't see the end of what I will say, before I say it. I know the general direction (e.g. in this case, respond to Neil, he said some interesting things, he's interesting in how he communicates), so I set off in that direction, but the chances of landing on the bullseye is remote!

Oh wait, what the hell did I want to tell you? Darn... :/