How can I write better?

[luke wilson]

Bjorn, thanks! :)

 

[Neil]

But and excuse this stream of consciousness, is it that you are well-read that you speak this way or is it that you read-well because you speak this way i.e. is your style a window into your psychical foundation?

The progression was psychic impressions->reading->writing. Without going into a lot of detail about it and taking the thread off on a tangent... during my preteen and teenage years I kept running into these people who were metaphysically inclined. Alien abduction, astral projection, telepathy and psychic bonding were all things that we talked about when we were 11-12 years old, albeit in a childish way. I kept having these dreams where there was a lot of "4D content" such as traveling to other realms through portals, altering physicality through thought, time that could expand, contract, and loop, technology operated by spiritual energy and so on. I had absolutely no knowledgebase in which to understand these things, and felt the need to explain them somehow, but I could not. That was the foundation.

So about three years went by with all of that going on in the background and I find myself in an AP English Lit course. One of the main goals of the course was to analyze classic literature, most often poetry, by looking at the style, tone, metaphors, allusions, etc to unpack what the author really intended with the passage. My analytical approach to dissecting texts was birthed there. I was also quite taken with how certain poetry also had such a profound effect on my comprehension of the line of force behind it. It was different than merely gaining knowledge by reading words, you could also feel understanding by reading words if you could get deeply enough into it. I thought this ability would be helpful for trying to explain my metaphysical experiences to anyone, so I tried to learn it. It is only a short jump from poetry to philosophy, which you could say has similar goals, but by the time I was getting into philosophy I had encountered the Cassiopaean transcripts. I felt a strange connection with them because they had a similar capacity to speak in this poetic capacity I just described, but with less obscurity. This was another influence.

So at 17, I was a Cassiopaean noob, read the transcripts and the Wave, and I decided to take a Journalism class to round out a few credits I needed to graduate and pass the time with an easy course. So we took some kind of writing test, and those who scored the highest were allowed to choose which section of the school paper they wanted to work on first. Most of the highest scoring chose the editorial section. It turned out that the editorial staff ended up consisting of me, a Cass reader, a kid whose parents were supposedly personal acquaintances of L Ron Hubbard, his theosophist friend, and a pretty hardcore wiccan. It wasn't a particularly collinear forum, but the discussions we had got pretty heavy. We would complete our classwork on Monday, and basically spend the rest of the week debating metaphysics. The scientologist and the theosophist were a good ways ahead of me in their studies and I actually "lost" most of the debates, which caused me to go on a bit of a reading binge my last year of high school. Thus the forum personality that you are familiar with was born.

After high school, I had no more contact with most of my real physical "buddies" to discuss the subjects that fascinated me. The forum had me on edge because I wasn't quite sure what to make of anart. I continued to read, but I withdrew and became, and essentially still am, a loner. As I got older and my social life got ever more compartmentalized, I felt the truth of Gurdjieff's words that life is a prison. I became desperate to escape. There is a song that my dad played during my teen years which haunted me. _https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54gNizQj3HY

This person definitely saw the General Law at some level and it is becoming my life. This led to my existential crash a little over a year ago. So I write, because it is about all I can do...but I'm getting way off topic.

For me, when I talk, I have no idea what words will come out of my mouth. Sometimes I'm wonderfully surprised, other times, it's a car crash in slow motion. It appears to me that peoples minds somehow map out what they will say/how they will say it, before they say it. That's the only way I can explain people not running into constant problems mid-sentences i.e. not flowing/not being disjointed. However, this is not in accordance with an article I read on SOTT a while back, that essentially said people hear themselves talk to know if what they are saying makes sense or not.

I always have an outline of what I'm going to say in my mind before I start typing. I try to limit the response to a narrow focus. I know approximately how many paragraphs the response will be. Each paragraph is one subject which I had planned to talk about. In this case, the topic was "why do you write the way you do?" When you add unplanned paragraphs is when you start going off into stream of consciousness writing. In this particular post there were actually two unplanned paragraphs, which I decided to leave in as sort of an example. They are discernible by a slight shift in tone and relevance. It is not necessary to elaborate on what happened after my writing style was "crystalized," by this point I have answered your question and it is really just tangential ancillary information. Some people may find the song and additional background interesting, but if this was another thread, I would probably delete it. So I do it too, I just spend a lot of time on editing so that it is not really visible in the final post.I don't preplan sentences, I write them as the ideas are translated from "thoughtform" to words, and then I go back and refine them after I have completed the paragraph. After I complete the post, I go back through the entire thing and make minor tweaks and evaluate how closely it fits my original intent. On a couple of occasions I have decided to throw an entire post out after writing it.

My speaking is a lot less formal and much more "chatty" than my writing, unless I'm discussing "forum subjects." Even so, there are long pauses and I have to refine my sentences as I speak them, so I don't come across as quite as intellectually suave as I do online.

 

[Buddy]

How can I write posts that convey maturity & good communication?

It appears to me, your questions arise from the answers you already provide in the post. Why not just work on the problems you've mentioned? For example:

1) Do not incorporate words and expressions from any other language.
2) Pay attention to detail related to the issues of sentence structure, vocabulary, grammar, spelling etc, that you see in your own post.
3) Avoid any shifts between lines of thinking.
4) Try to be concise

As for conciseness, I rewrote your OP of 432 words and got it down to 127 in order to show how little info I personally needed in order to get what you were asking and why. Also, after your initial question, I used the timeline progression: present-past-future to link it all together and then ended it with your restatement of the opening question to place the reader back in the present (tense):

How can I write posts that convey maturity & good communication?

Now, when I re-read my posts, I see sentence structure, vocabulary, grammar, and spelling errors that could be improved. Resulting from that, my posts seem to reflect immaturity. This might be related to inattention to detail that is not characteristic of my upbringing.

I feel like the combination of having practiced interpolating words from two different languages and having dropped formal language study at 16 may be working against me.

My goal for my writing is to demonstrate a sense of maturity and cohesion plus the appropriate use of words. If I can do that then hopefully I can make my thinking cohesive & mature.

So, how can I go about making better posts?

Note: I'm not saying you "should" have written like that. I'm just showing how I would most likely have edited it before submitting it if I had written it and taken the time to edit before posting. Even so, members who are notable for their short, concise style in replies usually write a lot more in an opening post anyway.

 

[Turgon]

Hey Neil,

Did you notice that when you wrote that long response to luke wilson he responded with one of his 'stream of consciousness' posts? That's probably why Joe wrote this earlier in the thread.

I also think other forum members can help you in this task by responding to your 'stream of consciousness' posts with short concise answers rather than similarly long posts. This way you might be able to learn by example.

 

[Phill4]

I find your posts good, IMO, as a bilingual myself i get it, i truly go back to my posts sometimes and my face is this

maybe you are trying to convey many thoughts at once? and this rush of ideas doesn't come out straight.

I though about this before and realized that the mind doesn't operate in a line where the mind communicates to itself and its bank of information like WE communicate in books, in a thread of letters and sentences, but rather many like a colorful spiderweb.


I studied basics of english in high school, and though it made a huge difference in how one writes it doesn't necessarily mean the idea we are trying to elaborate will come though to the other person, sometimes these linguistic boundaries block the flow of ideas, remember G. books?


Something to remember in regards to posts is to recognize to/from which center are you communicating the message and create the structural hierarchy in your mind before writing, if two ideas, then two paragraphs or posts.



I went to my home country 2 months ago, and I really, really REALLY had to bite my tongue, and try to make sense to others. it was hard for someone coming from a spanglish area. :P But from speech, to accent to sentence structure, expressions, etc it was totally different yet i knew it, it was weird but fun to force myself to re-adjust. When I came back my english was impacted, i could not formulate sentences as fluently, and again had to readjust.

Create this separation by effort.

maybe it is muscle memory ? sometimes we think in silence and we imagine our own voice speaking and speech habits when we think and when we write, try to make the separation in your head and tongue.

My two cents

 

[luke wilson]

Neil, I really enjoyed reading your post. I know we got slightly off-topic but for what you wrote, it was worth the price! In your story, it appears the inevitability of real life and its mechanics descended upon your shoulders slowly but surely. A bit like in that song.

In 20 years time, I would very much not like to read a post of yours and see this as applying to you:

I felt the truth of Gurdjieff's words that life is a prison

You should construct in your mind an image of what it would have to look like for it not to feel like a prison and probably start working towards actualising that image into reality. Rome wasn't built in one day.

Just to be annoying :)

So I write, because it is about all I can do...

My mum would say, why are you applying limits to yourself Neil? Who/what said it's about all you can do and what authority do they have over you? I know... she can be annoying sometimes! ;D

I went to my home country 2 months ago, and I really, really REALLY had to bite my tongue, and try to make sense to others. it was hard for someone coming from a spanglish area. :P But from speech, to accent to sentence structure, expressions, etc it was totally different yet i knew it, it was weird but fun to force myself to re-adjust. When I came back my english was impacted, i could not formulate sentences as fluently, and again had to readjust.

I can relate to the above! :)

maybe it is muscle memory ? sometimes we think in silence and we imagine our own voice speaking and speech habits when we think and when we write, try to make the separation in your head and tongue.

I currently write as I think so their is that need to develop that separation.

1) Do not incorporate words and expressions from any other language.
2) Pay attention to detail related to the issues of sentence structure, vocabulary, grammar, spelling etc, that you see in your own post.
3) Avoid any shifts between lines of thinking.
4) Try to be concise

Roger! :)

 

[sitting]

Oh wait, what the hell did I want to tell you? Darn... :/

Yes. I was wondering.

If you truly wish to learn, then read Laura's words -- carefully. Both her style and her content.

But I could be wrong.

FWIW.

 

[Renaissance]

Neil, I really enjoyed reading your post. I know we got slightly off-topic but for what you wrote, it was worth the price!

I have to wonder if you are serious about the issue for which you are asking help. People have made sincere responses to try and help, but with the above it comes across as though you're not interested. Perhaps there is a part of you that enjoys going off on tangents and meandering?

 

[luke wilson]

Neil, I really enjoyed reading your post. I know we got slightly off-topic but for what you wrote, it was worth the price!

I have to wonder if you are serious about the issue for which you are asking help. People have made sincere responses to try and help, but with the above it comes across as though you're not interested. Perhaps there is a part of you that enjoys going off on tangents and meandering?

Apologies, I'm serious! But not regimented! Neil shared vulnerable and personal aspects of himself, which was technically off-topic and I had to go off-topic to share in what he said - out of choice. Analysing the cost-benefit of it beforehand....

- Cost: Off topic. Potential for responses like the above. Potential to be seen as not serious.

- Benefit: Sharing with Neil.

- Result: Benefit is worth more than the cost.

- Risk going forward for action taken: entrenchment of perception of insincerity leading to negative blow-back in interactions.

- Mitigating actions: Fall back in-line.

 

[Turgon]

Neil, I really enjoyed reading your post. I know we got slightly off-topic but for what you wrote, it was worth the price!

I have to wonder if you are serious about the issue for which you are asking help. People have made sincere responses to try and help, but with the above it comes across as though you're not interested. Perhaps there is a part of you that enjoys going off on tangents and meandering?

Apologies, I'm serious! But not regimented! Neil shared vulnerable and personal aspects of himself, which was technically off-topic and I had to go off-topic to share in what he said - out of choice. Analysing the cost-benefit of it beforehand....

- Cost: Off topic. Potential for responses like the above. Potential to be seen as not serious.

- Benefit: Sharing with Neil.

- Result: Benefit is worth more than the cost.

- Risk going forward for action taken: entrenchment of perception of insincerity leading to negative blow-back in interactions.

- Mitigating actions: Fall back in-line.

Is that how you see it? Because you're the one who asked for help with your style of communication in the first place. And help was given to you in how to improve things, but you ignored it. It was pointed out to you, but you ended up defending your use of your original style of communication that you said you wanted to change to begin with. The end result is that you're not seen as serious.

How can I write posts that convey maturity & good communication?
...

When I reread my posts, I notice that sentence structure, vocabulary, grammar, spelling etc are horrendous (tbh). On top of that, I notice that taking it in all as a whole, my posts purely on a communication front portray immaturity. On this point, it's a contrast to my actual character. My character is molded around discipline and respect for authority (cultural upbringing).

Those are your words and what you were initially asking help with.

Oh wait, what the hell did I want to tell you? Darn... :/

...

Rome wasn't built in one day. Just to be annoying :)

And then it devolved into this. How is anyone supposed to think your sincere if you make remarks like that to the people that you were originally asking for help from?

 

[luke wilson]

Ok, can I apologise and say I'm sorry? I know I messed up. I didn't want to admit it but instead found ways to justify. I know I did the opposite of what I wanted to do! Things just got out of hand and I was back to old-patterns. It's a struggle.

 

[Neil]

Did you notice that when you wrote that long response to luke wilson he responded with one of his 'stream of consciousness' posts?

I debated whether or not I wanted to get involved in this discussion because I thought that Keit and Renaissance had already basically answered the question. I did not speak directly to the topic of the thread in my first post, but wrote a commentary on how the poetic approach that was suggested related to my own writing style. I knew that there was some risk of perturbing the original intent by talking about me, which is exactly what has happened, but I thought that rounding out the answers with some personal details and explanations would add to the discussion and be interesting Luke. It is really not surprising that he followed up with personal questions. Since we are rigidly sticking to the subject at hand, which is "Provide pointers so I can write better," I will reiterate my position that all that needs to be said was said in the first 15 posts or so. I personally do not enjoy such rigidly linear discussions, but since the whole point of the thread was to find ways to keep Luke on track by example, and Joe explicitly reiterated this directive early in the thread, I violated the directive by posting. Therefore, I will bow out because there is nothing more I can say which fits within the scope of the original topic.

I did try to bring the thread back after taking a slight detour into my personal history in the second post. Luke should've come back to topic after that and did readopt his childish tone after you called him on it, but really, I started it.

 

[Renaissance]

Struggling against the false personality can feel regimented, but that is usually from the perspective of the false personality. It can be difficult to win such a struggle when we fall back into maintaining these perspectives. I think you grok this but have trouble putting it into practice. One thing that can help shift us outside of this type of thinking is conscious suffering. In this instance it might help to look at the possibility that immaturity isn't just something accidentally conveyed through a misuse of language, but that it actually is a part of your character that affects both yourself and others. Facing this kind of stuff with a sincere and serious attitude is uncomfortable! But it's also a mature and responsible behavior that can be pretty valuable in making real changes toward who we want to be.

 

[Turgon]

Neil,

Bringing up Joe's post wasn't intended to make it seem like a directive that shouldn't be violated. His original post was a suggestion to forum members who want to help with what luke had originally asked in the thread. I didn't intend to stifle organic conversation and act authoritatively, I just wanted to note to you that the original suggestion wasn't made without a good reason.

 

[Buddy]

Ok, can I apologise and say I'm sorry? I know I messed up. I didn't want to admit it but instead found ways to justify. I know I did the opposite of what I wanted to do! Things just got out of hand and I was back to old-patterns. It's a struggle.

Should you choose to engage the struggle, it needs to drop out of the intellectual realm and actively involve your neurology/physiology. That's the physical part of the Work and the physical part of 'doing' and that is what will get you somewhere. Laura has given me similar advice on the same topic in her own words, and the essence of the message is this: change comes from consciously re-wiring the brain and re-wiring happens while actually writing the way you want to write.

Using an analogy of your computer's hard drive: let's say your body is the storage media, your brain(mind) holds the current instructions for what you're about to do, and, in this case, your writing hand is the write head. If you want to remove old patterns on the storage media, you simply overwrite them in real time by consciously performing the new motions that you want instead.

I know it's hard, but I'm sure you have enough life experience to validate that general principle of the more you actually do something, the easier it gets. There's your joy!