How to handle harrassment

nicklebleu

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I have recently been subject to some peculiar form of harassment: Very often leaving a shopping centre I am being asked to open my bags or show dockets of goods purchased. This often happens just after having passed through the cashier, despite CCTV cameras littering the shop, staff having a watchful eye on customers and goods detectors guarding the exit. As this has gone a bit overboard I have become quite angry at that - refusing to open my bags. I sought legal advice about what my rights and duties are in this respect - the bottom line is, that the shop has basically no rights to search my bags or hinder my exit in any way (in Australia). So they rely on the naivety and goodwill of the people to comply to their wishes. I came to a head at a few occasions with the staff involved in the searching.

I have been pondering my feelings and action in this respect for a long time - and haven't reached a conclusion, as to what could be described "appropriate behaviour". I have formed a lot of arguments for opposing and complying to these requests, but haven't been able to balance these. I would like to ask my fellow forum members, what their thoughts are in this respect. Of course, these situations are relatively benign or even unimportant, but are symbolic for a trend in our society. So the answer to this question may hold more than just knowing what to do exiting a shop ...

On one hand I find, that shops, the government, the police etc. is getting more and more confident in violating our private sphere. Even though the legislation on paper protects the customer or citizen, in reality very little can be felt of that protection. As to the situation in the shops, the staff often hasn't got a clue of the rights of the customer and the lack of authority of their part - they wear an uniform, and that puts them on an even keel with law enforcement officials - in their view. These individuals often are not the most pleasant or positive, that opt for this job. So to resist and invoke the rights of the individual is sort of a duty of the citizen, unless we let our rights slip away unopposed.

On the other hand, I am not advocating violence at all, or organizing people to fight these trends - I regard it more as a duty towards myself. But then there is strategic enclosure (SE) and external considering (EC). By defending my rights, do I not leave SE and EC behind? Do I not "violate" the right of the person fulfilling this job? Then also, do I fight on the wrong plane, with the wrong weapons - as the enemy is different, hidden - and as the C's say: knowledge protects from all negativity, and all we need is to have the faith that acquiring knowledge is all we need. So instead of fighting the poor bloke at the exit, should I not externally consider him and further my own development, kind of not wasting energy on a side issue?

or the following quote I read from the SOTT editors:
Perhaps it is true that people have the ability to alter their reality by their actions. However, there is a large caveat. It seems that if one acts on the basis of a subjective belief (and we are all subjective to a greater or lesser degree), then the results of ones actions will produce a different result from that which was intended, and may very likely have the opposite effect. Contrary to the belief of many new agers, one does not "create ones own reality" with 'positive' thinking. One interacts with objective reality in complex ways that are not fully understood because most of it is not visible. This is why at SOTT we do not advocate revolutionary measures such as taking the law into our own hands, or taking to the streets as an angry mob. Violence begets violence. The forceful overthrowing of a government is a situation tailor-made for the psychopath, a master of turning emotional and chaotic situations to his advantage, whilst maintaining a facade of righteous justification.

So now I have given you my thoughts - some pro, some contra resisting - and I would be very grateful for your insight into what has had me preoccupied for the last few months.
 
Are all shops behaving this way, or just specific kinds? If its only one or two kinds of shops, would it be possible to do business elsewhere?
 
Initially I thought it was only a few shops mostly selling electronics, but then I have been queried in hardware shops as well. Doing business in other shops is possible, but often involves considerable inconveniences ... I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I feel, that this is a general trend in our society.
 
Hello nicklebleu, thanks for bringing this subject up.
In last few months I have been doing my own little battle/protest against searches at checkouts.
When asked to show my bag at exit i say: NO. Then, keeping in mind external consideration, I immediately explain to the person asking (usually young lady), that I'm not having a go at her/him personally but 'the system', and I refuse to be treated like potential thief every time I come to the shop - it's new to me, I'm not used to it !
So far I didn't have major problems, they look at me kinda funny and let me go.
On few occasions checkout person insisted. I then turn around (I have backpack) and say: 'OK feel free to check it'. They say: 'we're not allowed to open customers bags'. I say: 'I'm giving you my permission to do so'
I've been doing it for last few months and lately I noticed, that those who recognize me - don't ask me any more...
Whether it is right approach - I'm not really sure. Couple of times person asking was clearly embarrassed (red face), I apologized for the trouble and again pointed, that my action has nothing to do with her/him personally - it's my little protest against 'the system' and loss of the right to personal freedom/privacy.
Ever since I came to Australia (over 25 yrs ago) I noticed more and more restrictive laws/rules/regulations being introduced, as well as increased fines for breaking them.
I think, that by complying we give 'the system' the right and permission to implement even more freedom/privacy restricting laws/rules/regulations.
To make our life harder is part of totalitarian system.
Since I'm not asked to open my bag as often as before - I think that my little protest works...
 
Nicklebleu:

The Walmart in my area started conducting illegal searches a couple of years ago. Like you, I was initially very angry and upset about it, and ended up getting into a heated argument with a store employee. When I analyzed the incident later, I realized that all my anger did was trigger anger/control issues/programs in the person I was dealing with, and nothing was really achieved. So I devised the following "strategy" for dealing with the situation:

Now when I am asked to open my bags, I calmly say to the employee, with a friendly smile: "Look I know you're just doing your job and doing what your employer has told you to do, but Walmart doesn't have the right to search my bags, its a violation of my rights and I'm not going to do it. Now, you can either just let me go my way, or go and get your store manager and I'll deal with him. It's up to you." At no point do I get angry or aggressive. Nine times out of ten, the employee just lets me go my way. On a few occasions the employee has fetched the store manager, who got the same speech from me. When he continued to insist, I calmly told him that if he had reason to believe I had stolen something, then he should detain me and call the police, who are the only people who have the legal right to search my bags. But I warned him that he had better be VERY SURE, because if it turned out he had no basis for detaining me, I would charge him with false arrest and assault.

The store manager has always let me go my way. Over time, the employees and store managers got to know me and my stand, and I am rarely bothered anymore. But it took (1) Overcoming my anger and devising an effective strategy, and (2) A willingness on my part to tolerate a certain amount of inconvenience. Is the inconvenience worth it? For me, yes. Like you, I couldn't live with myself if I simply complied, I would feel that I was contributing to the erosion of rights by doing so. Does it achieve anything? Yes, in time I was no longer harassed. I also like to think that when others see my refusal to cooperate, they might someday be inspired to do the same, and if enough people refuse to cooperate, they will stop doing it. However, I only have control over my own actions.

Seems to me, Nicklebleu, that you need to DECIDE -- whether it is "worth" the inconvenience to take a calm but steadfast stand, or whether it is best to let it go and expend your energy elsewhere. Right now you are "stuck" in your righteous anger, neither carrying out a calm and effective strategy, nor releasing it. Other forum members cannot tell you what you should or should not expend your energy on. We all have different lessons to learn. It may be important for you to learn how to "take a stand" at the cost of personal inconvenience; on the other hand you may need to learn how to how to "pick your battles", when it is important to "fight" and when it is not. Only self-examination and "following the emotion" will lead you to what is "right" for you....

Hope that is helpful.
 
an excellent strategy, PepperFritz! and one that I think many will need to learn how to exercise in the coming times. Refusing to be dominated, oneself, rather than reflecting it back and attempting to dominate others by our reactions. Doesn't this just go to show that the biggest battles are the internal ones. It is ourselves that we need to master, not anyone else. osit.
 
Last year I was in an airport, I was asked to empty my bag at the checking point. While complying because I know it has now became the usual procedure, (it's not like in shops)I looked at the woman doing the search and asked:'Don't you think we are both kind of ridiculous? I, displaying an 'arabic grocery' in front of the crowd, you checking dried fruits and finaly finding a shampoo that is "forbiden"? She answered:"anybody can be a terrorist, their is no way to spot a terrorist."I answered:"Can you name me a terrorist event which had been carried out by a usual citizen not being linked with state terrorism?" She stared at me for a while and then called her superior. The guy came and asked suspiciously what was going on. She told him my request. He came to me respectuously and asked me again my question. I complied and add that to my knowledge no terrorist attack had ever occured without having being carried out by states or elements of intelligence services. He remained thaughtful for a while and said: "Oklaoma sir". So I reminded him that MCVeigh couldn't be considered (to say the least) a usual citizen. The guy finally said:"You are right, I don't know why I pay my tax to the state...sorry". All the checking officers followed the conversation.
I when back to the lobby to put my bag in the plane. When I came back to the checking pont, I was allowed to cross the waiting line, the people in charge of the search told me to go thru with large approval smiles, no search and greetings.
I don't think there is a recipe and the things might get taugher with the actual events, but if we are determinated and calm, we can find ways to deal with the situations.
 
Last year I was in an airport, I was asked to empty my bag at the checking point. While complying because I know it has now became the usual procedure, (it's not like in shops)I looked at the woman doing the search and asked:'Don't you think we are both kind of ridiculous? I, displaying an 'arabic grocery' in front of the crowd, you checking dried fruits and finaly finding a shampoo that is "forbiden"? She answered:"anybody can be a terrorist, their is no way to spot a terrorist."I answered:"Can you name me a terrorist event which had been carried out by a usual citizen not being linked with state terrorism?" She stared at me for a while and then called her superior. The guy came and asked suspiciously what was going on. She told him my request. He came to me respectuously and asked me again my question. I complied and add that to my knowledge no terrorist attack had ever occured without having being carried out by states or elements of intelligence services. He remained thaughtful for a while and said: "Oklaoma sir". So I reminded him that MCVeigh couldn't be considered (to say the least) a usual citizen. The guy finally said:"You are right, I don't know why I pay my tax to the state...sorry". All the checking officers followed the conversation.
I when back to the lobby to put my bag in the plane. When I came back to the checking pont, I was allowed to cross the waiting line, the people in charge of the search told me to go thru with large approval smiles, no search and greetings.
I don't think there is a recipe and the things might get taugher with the actual events, but if we are determinated and calm, we can find ways to deal with the situations.

Sankara, I'm not sure of the result, but have you thought of reporting such a story to a journalist? Since we are bombarded with the opposing response, maybe such a story would inspire at least one other reader, if not many, to stand up for him/herself? One danger I see is that such a story might provoke the authorities to investigate and punish the very people that allowed you to pass freely through the checkpoint. If so, maybe such an action wouldn't be so "bad" as it may effectively stimulate other journalists interest of the incident and further its publicity? What do the other forum members think? Is reporting such an incident objectively legitimate or is my thinking being skewed by the fog of "good" intentions?
 
I don't think there are any more journalism, at least not where I live.
This happened, happily...
There must be a lot of small acts of resistance everywhere...It won't be reported? So what? 'the revolution won't be televised'

Last week I was on a train without any ticket, so the controler came to check me and I just said 'hello I have no ticket' (I was ready to be fined)she looked at me and said:"And I don't want to give you a fine, goodbye"...

Don't give up
 
sankara said:
"I nswered:"Can you name me a terrorist event which had been carried out by a usual citizen not being linked with state terrorism?" She stared at me for a while and then called her superior. The guy came and asked suspiciously what was going on. She told him my request. He came to me respectuously and asked me again my question. I complied and add that to my knowledge no terrorist attack had ever occured without having being carried out by states or elements of intelligence services. He remained thaughtful for a while and said: "Oklaoma sir". So I reminded him that MCVeigh couldn't be considered (to say the least) a usual citizen. The guy finally said:"You are right, I don't know why I pay my tax to the state...sorry". All the checking officers followed the conversation.

I think it's OK to stand your ground (depending on the situation at this point in time) and letting them know just what your rights are (not only for yourself but also for that other guy who is too afraid to say anything) but, later, this might not be a good idea since the paranoia among these people in the future will most likely become completely psychotic, not to mention the fact that they will already have been programmed to react in a specific way to a given stimulus and then take you down without question. It looks as if all this is just a ruse to program the moving centers of the security personal pending a future time when they will be acting their role in earnest. Now they laugh only because they can but later, when things get worse they will merge with the program and then become deadly serious.

For myself I found that in this kind of situation its best if I choose a course of action and stick to it without getting caught up in the subtle exchanges with the individuals involved. For example if I was delayed in a store because they wanted to check my bags for no reason then I might insist on speaking with the mgr and saying that they have no right to search my stuff since they had no legitimate reason to do so and that if it would happen again then I'm gonna shop at another store and I'm not happy about this at all.

I would make an effort (easier for me to say then do) to transform my anger about it into a dedicated role to act in a certain way and stick to that no matter what and I'd make an effort to not get “pulled in” and caught up with reasoning with them about how wrong it is. I'd try to be firm with my actions and let my actions speak to them. It would pretty much go like this: I might say something like, “I don't like your wanting to search my stuff for no legitimate reason”, then I’d say “where’s the manager of this store”?, then, blah blah blah to the mgr, and then I’d leave without any of the ‘niceties’ with the store personal or the store manager and all the while being conscious of what I'm doing and why I'm doing it (again easier for me to say then do).

I found that, in this kind of situation, the ‘niceties’ will just pull me into a situation that is already mechanical to begin with and that is where, methinks, the General Law of Mouravieff will play its subtle game, not only thru the other people in the situation but thru myself as well. I think that, much like the sirens of Ulysses one can get pulled into a situation like this with all the ‘niceties’ and forget the role that one consciously chose to play. Then it becomes a free for all and then the role player gets played by the role and later this can become dangerous if one cannot (consciously) chose a course of action (a role) and then stick to it no matter what.
 
PepperFritz said:
The Walmart in my area started conducting illegal searches a couple of years ago. (snip)
Now when I am asked to open my bags, I calmly say to the employee, with a friendly smile: "Look I know you're just doing your job and doing what your employer has told you to do, but Walmart doesn't have the right to search my bags, its a violation of my rights and I'm not going to do it.

Have they? Then I'm surprised that it hasn't been legally challenged. Especially with such a large company. Usually they are VERY sure of where they stand legally before they do anything. It can be a very expensive exercise if they get it wrong. Mind you, you are challenging them in a legal way, although not formally.

Its only Governments - or their agencies that can basically do what they like (because they make the law). Companies and other citizens have to abide by it or.... they get fined or taken to court.

When you venture into a shop you are (usually) subject to their discretion because you are on 'their turf' and they will normally display their terms and conditions very prominently, perhaps even announcing them. They will have 'disclaimers' everywhere. They can charge what they like and treat you how they like. The fact that you are there in the first place says that you have agree to their... 'terms and conditions'. You are probably even being filmed on security cameras as well. Is this illegal as well?

We have something like this in our country when dealing with call centers. Before you actually get to talk to anyone, they announce that they will be 'recording the conversation for training purposes' and if you have any objections to this to 'let the person you speak to know', presumably so they can turn the recording off. This was something they obviously obliged to do to conform to the law. They have to tell you they are recording you, in case you don't want this to happen and they have to be certain that you are aware of it.

What Walmart does in their store is probably legal because
1. its their store - their 'turf'.
2. you are aware that they do it and have been for some time and
3. you still shop there. ;) Even if you do issue them with a legal challenge when they do something you object to.

I'm actually quite worried about the social conditioning that is going into trying to get people to 'demand' that they go into security 'lock down' for their own 'safety'. That would be just propaganda based on government 'agency' false flag opperations.
 
Ruth said:
Especially with such a large company. Usually they are VERY sure of where they stand legally before they do anything. It can be a very expensive exercise if they get it wrong. Mind you, you are challenging them in a legal way, although not formally.

I just want to disabuse anyone of the notion that Wal-Mart is under much compuntion to follow the law (edit: nor does the government come down on it very hard, if at all when it is caught breaking the law. Must be a big donator ;) ) This corporation has a long history of illegal practices. Here are just a few:

_http://blackwhite.blog-city.com/walmarts_illegal_union_busting.htm

_http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/23/national/main579655.shtml

_http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C06EEDC1639F936A35752C1A9659C8B63

_http://money.cnn.com/2005/03/18/news/fortune500/wal_mart_settlement/

_http://www.mikebloomberg.com/index.cfm?objectid=8F5873B4-1D09-317F-BB76F4B8927F28C8
 
Ruth said:
What Walmart does in their store is probably legal....

No, it is not legal; I have friends in the legal and law-enforcement professions and I know this for a fact. In this country (Canada) absolutely no one except the police are allowed to search someone's person. Even if a store has solid evidence that you have shoplifted (e.g. videotape), they are only allowed to detain you and call the police. When the police arrive, the store must present their evidence to them; if the police are satisfied that there is reasonable evidence, they will conduct a search. And if there is not reasonable evidence, the police are not allowed to search you. If you are detained and searched without reasonable evidence, you can sue for false arrest and search.

In this country (as in most countries, I imagine) private companies/stores are not allowed to do anything they like to anyone who enters their premises, shops in their stores, and/or works for them. They are subject to all kinds of laws that govern how they may or may not conduct their business, and how they may and may not treat their customers and employees.
 
The legal situation in Australia is such, that they may ask you to open your bag INSIDE the store, if they have reasonable suspicion, that you have committed a theft. They are not allowed to detain you, as this presents assault - they can call the police, which is the only agency (legally) allowed to search your belongings and to detain you. "Inside the store" is defined as before you go through the cashier, so most of these searches are conducted OUTSIDE.

I found PF'a approach quite good, and I think I may adopt that strategy, but somehow also agree with Kenlee, that "niceties" are not appropriate in this situation, because then you get into "their game". My biggest problem is to remain calm in such a situation, as I get very angry very quickly - so I guess, that may be MY lesson I have to learn. I may try that in the future, to calmly walk out of the store and reply NO to the answer: "May I have a look into your bag ...?". If the person gets worked up about me (most just let you go unchallenged), then I might explain to him, that I am outside the store and that he or her has no authority to do that -and then walk away.
 
I had a look around and you can refuse to open you bag in Australia. But then they can refuse to sell you the goods.

My method is not taking bags into stores.
 

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