Humans and letting go...

[lilyalic]

I agree that acceptance is an importaint part of it but I believe its important to know what to accept and what one has to work on (transform). If you just accept everything how can you change, be better, be objective?

Yes it's essential that we need to understand what it is that needs that acceptance. But our minds can play so many tricks on us, trying to defer the actual problem.
If you're talking about the past i.e. "if you accept everything how can you change" - then you have no choice but to accept it, yes you may not agree with it, but it cannot be altered in the way it was done. By acceptance I mean, accept that it happened, take what you can from it, no matter how disturbing it may be. By then, you may not see it as disturbing as you perceived, Here's a quote by Sandra Kring "The tiny seed knew that in order to grow, it needed to be dropped in dirt, covered in darkness, and struggle to reach the light."

A quote from Trapped in the Mirror could be seen as relevant here " " Slay me if you meet me on the road" which means not to believe in the image of the man but to reach an understanding of the essence of life through self-exploration"

 

[Nienna]

Hi Menna.

I think the issue of people being incapable of "letting go", as you put it, has everything to do with identification. When one is identified with anything, which is the general rule IMO, associations rule the day. It is just not possible while in that hypnotic-like state (identification) to "escape from the magic circle" (think of the story of the Yezidis), as the magic circle IS the state of identification, in which the "I" of the moment is nothing more than the totality of associations occurring, set into "motion" by chance external triggers/shocks.

In order to be free from "holding on tightly", one needs an I-without-quotation-marks. This can only come through struggling against one's nature, which can only happen with a wish to do so, which depends upon an understanding of the necessity of doing so. Sorry I can't point you to scientific studies, other than G's, dealing with this.

Kris

Something that Gurdjieff has said, which I always find to be true, is the following:

Another thing that people must sacrifice is their suffering. It is very difficult also to sacrifice one's suffering. A man will renounce any pleasures you like but he will not give up his suffering. Man is made in such a way that he is never so much attached to anything as he is to his suffering. And it is necessary to be free from suffering. No one who is not free from suffering, who has not sacrificed his suffering, can work.

I've found this to be true of quite a few people, including me. It was quite the "Aha" moment when I read this. People seem to really like to suffer. It gives us some kind of chemical "fix" and we wallow in it.

Just something to think about.

 

[Kisito]

I agree that acceptance is an importaint part of it but I believe its important to know what to accept and what one has to work on (transform). If you just accept everything how can you change, be better, be objective?

Yes it's essential that we need to understand what it is that needs that acceptance. But our minds can play so many tricks on us, trying to defer the actual problem.
If you're talking about the past i.e. "if you accept everything how can you change" - then you have no choice but to accept it, yes you may not agree with it, but it cannot be altered in the way it was done. By acceptance I mean, accept that it happened, take what you can from it, no matter how disturbing it may be. By then, you may not see it as disturbing as you perceived, Here's a quote by Sandra Kring "The tiny seed knew that in order to grow, it needed to be dropped in dirt, covered in darkness, and struggle to reach the light."

A quote from Trapped in the Mirror could be seen as relevant here " " Slay me if you meet me on the road" which means not to believe in the image of the man but to reach an understanding of the essence of life through self-exploration"

Accept is to understand the universal laws. The more you know the more we know what we have to accept and what we must fight.
We see many single people minds accept everything. And people too proud or too stupid they accept nothing.

 

[Maya]

Hi Menna.

I think the issue of people being incapable of "letting go", as you put it, has everything to do with identification. When one is identified with anything, which is the general rule IMO, associations rule the day. It is just not possible while in that hypnotic-like state (identification) to "escape from the magic circle" (think of the story of the Yezidis), as the magic circle IS the state of identification, in which the "I" of the moment is nothing more than the totality of associations occurring, set into "motion" by chance external triggers/shocks.

In order to be free from "holding on tightly", one needs an I-without-quotation-marks. This can only come through struggling against one's nature, which can only happen with a wish to do so, which depends upon an understanding of the necessity of doing so. Sorry I can't point you to scientific studies, other than G's, dealing with this.

Kris

Something that Gurdjieff has said, which I always find to be true, is the following:

Another thing that people must sacrifice is their suffering. It is very difficult also to sacrifice one's suffering. A man will renounce any pleasures you like but he will not give up his suffering. Man is made in such a way that he is never so much attached to anything as he is to his suffering. And it is necessary to be free from suffering. No one who is not free from suffering, who has not sacrificed his suffering, can work.

I've found this to be true of quite a few people, including me. It was quite the "Aha" moment when I read this. People seem to really like to suffer. It gives us some kind of chemical "fix" and we wallow in it.

Just something to think about.

Yes, suffering makes you passive, makes you dead inside, cause you can't act -and if you act the fear of change paralizes you when
you think that your victim role is only possible version of you and that you will dissapear without it.

It is the worst thing ever happened to me. Being identified with the 'victim' role long after I left my
home (narcissistic abusive parents ) and running same old programs over and over... manipulating and feeding on others people pity.. terrible !

Non identifiing and self observing really saved my life, for the first time I found out who am I through the realizing WHO AM I NOT.
And it finaly gave my ability to heal and growe .. so thankfull for that.

 

[lilyalic]

Accept is to understand the universal laws. The more you know the more we know what we have to accept and what we must fight.
We see many single people minds accept everything. And people too proud or too stupid they accept nothing.

That's very true Kisito :) we need to attempt to understand the energy forces from the universe and it's 'laws'.

Another thing that people must sacrifice is their suffering. It is very difficult also to sacrifice one's suffering. A man will renounce any pleasures you like but he will not give up his suffering. Man is made in such a way that he is never so much attached to anything as he is to his suffering. And it is necessary to be free from suffering. No one who is not free from suffering, who has not sacrificed his suffering, can work.

I've found this to be true of quite a few people, including me. It was quite the "Aha" moment when I read this. People seem to really like to suffer. It gives us some kind of chemical "fix" and we wallow in it.

Just something to think about.

That's a really good example. We don't want to accept our suffering/ our emotional pain, because it's hard to know 'what comes after'. And yes we 'wallow' in it, that's very true.

 

[Menna]

Accept is to understand the universal laws. The more you know the more we know what we have to accept and what we must fight.
We see many single people minds accept everything. And people too proud or too stupid they accept nothing.

I may need to brush up on the universal laws. I know part of them but I feel that I don't have the complete picture and the complete picture will help me understand life more.

I've found this to be true of quite a few people, including me.

Yes I found that G's quote is helpful in pointing out our human nature I notice this in myself however I don't want to suffer anymore. Once you have been doing it for years its not something you can just switch on and off. Its like the suffering is a friend that you have known for two decades and now you have to cut it loose but how?...I feel that this is what I need to be vigilant about unnecissary suffering or any suffering I don't believe any of it is necessary in my life anymore like it may have been. I don't need or want it and it just drains energy does more harm then good.

 

[Nawd]

This article is one of the best answers to that question in my opinion. In summary, it explains how emotional bonding is tied in with ones thinking. http://drjoecarver.makeswebsites.com/clients/49355/File/love_and_stockholm_syndrome.html

Good article. I found another one by the same Dr. and it explains how to see if one is dating or involved with a 'loser.' How to break it off etc. Also a good read.

_http://www.drjoecarver.com/clients/49355/File/IdentifyingLosers.html

 

[ajseph 21]

I agree letting go starts with acceptance of the past for what it is because not letting go can lead to a more detrimental condition like a breakdown referenced in Eva's post. This occurred for me and all that happened seemed linked to repressed emotion about abuse in childhood and well childhood in general. It's like a repeat of the same dynamic over and over again until you accept, understand and forgive yourself and others. I don't intend to suggest this is easy though cuz it's not!

 

[SeekinTruth]

I've found this to be true of quite a few people, including me.

Yes I found that G's quote is helpful in pointing out our human nature I notice this in myself however I don't want to suffer anymore. Once you have been doing it for years its not something you can just switch on and off. Its like the suffering is a friend that you have known for two decades and now you have to cut it loose but how?...I feel that this is what I need to be vigilant about unnecissary suffering or any suffering I don't believe any of it is necessary in my life anymore like it may have been. I don't need or want it and it just drains energy does more harm then good.

There is an important aspect in G's teaching about suffering. There are two kinds: mechanical suffering (our habits/routines, programs, imprinting, etc.) and intentional suffering/conscious work (related to doing what "it" doesn't like). Usually, it's not possible to stop suffering entirely at this level. But replacing mechanical suffering with intentional suffering gets one on the road to a different life and slowly gaining the ability to DO, as opposed to everything just happening, as Being grows with knowledge leading to understanding. MUCH easier said than done, but intentional suffering is a very important tool to free oneself from mechanical suffering.

 

[Menna]

I believe this is where I am. Realizing that I mechanically suffer more then I should and coming to this realization on the one hand is a good thing because now I can work to correct it however the sadness that comes from realizing how I have mistreated myself and not knowing how to treat myself properly is something to also process and move past. I have to do what it doesn't like to do more often it will be a long road to undo I would say 15 years of mechanical suffering as that is how I related to myself and the world for so many years however I want and know I deserve better for myself and I want to get to know this other part of me this part that knows/wants me to treat myself better.

 

[happyliza]

Thank you for such an in-depth and helpful thread. Years ago I studied many books on letting go. They helped to a certain extend in understanding the why and how to let go but I still struggle with some things - like Menna has mentioned. I have also studied the cognitive science books with my 'stuck letting go' emotions, incidents, recapitulation in mind.

Two of these events I feel I hold onto as I feel I have not reached into the depths of them enough to learn honestly the part I played. I feel I still have to get through the barrier, denial that I think is still there to reach the lessons of self that are still to be learned from it. Another thing that it problematic is not knowing the big picture, the possible karmic part that was played out, and was the lesson just for me, if so which ones, or for my childrend/family too - and which ones? I still have much confusion, lackof insight on this as my subconscious still denies me transparent access to how the events really unfolded due to my internal narrative/coping mechanism at the time - which I believe was not the whole truth.

For this reason, for the learning part, I still consciously refure to let go of these episodes and when the thought reoccurs I try to dig and delve a bit deeper into the recesses - but I still feel I have a long way to go on this. The hurt is not so bad now but the guilt of my part certainly is, therefore I need to 'identify' my role, as well as the external factors involved, and what alternative ways I could have handled the situations and why. As the process involved many years in the making (I feel it came about from extracting a 'confession' from my husband at the time), that subconsciously I brought things to a head, but through ignorance and lack of the right support and guidance at the time, caused much more hurt than had it happened later. IOW not just run to quit the problem as I was not aware I was going through breakdown/bi-polar reaction to the 'confession' which I lived with for a long time trying to play happy family while inside I was traumatic and 'dying' inside thus did not plan things properly (now seen in retrospect for the last 20 years). The consequences still live with me how the children suffered from me - the second cause - in reaction to the first cause (confession).

This is very combobulated but in essence it is how it is still messy in my mind. The two 'events' were a very traumatic and mesy divorce and later the death of my son. I am trying to be realistic about it from a helicopter point of view and my role (undeniable as it takes two to tango so to speak) but also my reactions, my self blame / guilt which gets worse the deeper I go, and the trigger - my ex. I feel this event is too important a lesson to let go of, and needs to be revisited until I truly 'get it'. If that is at all possible?

Once in a while a bit more of the 'veil' is opened and I discover another small aspect that I think was of my unconscious doing. Then more self blame occurs even though I feel I acted the only way I knew how at the time with the very limited information and help that was available then. Yet had I been able to pull myself out of the emotional turmoil that was taking me down very quickly together with a feeling of 'get out of this situation for your personal mental survival' playing continually in the back of my head, I could have rationalised more, planned better taking everyone's 'hurt from the consequences of MY actions which were knee-jerk - had I been able to see the future/potential damage all this would cause down the line. But I couldn't 'see' it let alone imagine it at the time.

When do you realistically draw a line under such events? Accept it happened, take what you can from it knowing it is not nearly as much as you could learn (although I cannot change the past, though you can try and heal the damage to the victims/children as best you can, again not handled well due to the emotionality still embroiled in the memory). Yes it is a continual drain on my energy, still keep visiting the 'past'. I know all decisions at the time were fear based and that I was not 'functioning' normally. I would class these as PTSD - shortly after I was signed off from work immediately by my empathietic doctor who was also a psychiatrist (who sadly died himself from severe depression), tried to prescribe prozac, but this was the start of the huge dark night of the soul for me - the tarot tower falling down all around me.

The studies here have definitely stabilised me, prevented my via knowledge from being catpulted from one trauma to another, especially pathelogicals too.

But my question is WHEN do you sincerely let go? When is it not in your best interests to pursue learning from an event any more? Is it just self serving following it still instead of moving on? Is such just identification? I am able to look at the death of my son from many angles now objectively, except the role I played in starting his psychological damage via the divorce - lack of maternal security - despite his choice to go to his father as he felt sorry for him not knowing the full picture, and me counteracting the court's decision of my custody, to let him go to his father in the first place (even though I did not want to I respected his choice even though he was only 10).

So a whole can of worms, involving so many diverse issues. This thread has prompted me to try to be as objective as I can to 'deal with it' once and for all. In whatever way is most constructive to all concerned. I know that past is past and it is the present that matters and who we are now that really counts. However there are still unresolved issues for my daughters in all this. They are independent and successsful but they seem to be reapeating this cycle in their own relationships (both had relationships of 5 years, one was married, and last year both failed, though from both of them being deceived by their partners - like I was on a continual basis).

How can I let go while they still hurt and I know their 'stuff' is still not properly resolved? Also complicated further by the fact that economics forced me to a different city, then a strong internal pull/reasons to a different country! The bond/connection that was mutually strong also got weaker from their side, thanks to manipulative disinformation from my ex, though naturally mine never died nor never will.

Yes, this has definitely touched a nerve!

 

[Menna]

I feel I hold onto as I feel I have not reached into the depths of them enough to learn honestly the part I played.

accept it happened, take what you can from it knowing it is not nearly as much as you could learn

But my question is WHEN do you sincerely let go?

Exactly.... and I believe this is a part of why I hold on maybe too long because how can I know all the angles of the lesson. If I wasnt smart enough to avoid the lesson then how am I smart enough to understand the lesson in its entirety. I feel I can still learn from past lessons that why I think about them in the now so that I can be better but this thinking about them in the now depresses and drains energy from them and I don't want this but at the same time I want to learn all that I can from it so I don't make the same mistakes?

Its like you have to learn all you can from the lesson by thinking about it and analyzing it but at the same time not let this process effect your emotions and Psyche.

Then there is this part of it

How can I let go while they still hurt and I know their 'stuff' is still not properly resolved?

If you had your part in their hurt and you no longer see or comuinicate with them this is a very hard thing to let go of because at the end of the day you had a negative impact on anothers life in some way

 

[Eva]

Could you describe what it is that you wish to let go of?

Something you did to someone/s years ago and you still have regret about it but then seeing that this person has moved on and you are still holding on. That I make a bigger deal of my past mistakes then necessary. That I can learn my lesson without being so hard on myself but at times I don't know how to do that.

Maybe a practical way to let go in this case would be through interracting with that person IE. offering a sincere apology.

About being too hard on yourself, I can relate to that, and it's crippling. I still can't really understand it because it's a trait of mine so my view will always be hindered by subjectivity but I think it's a very efficient way for the predator to keep us passive and closed off.
And even what I just said is so negatively charged that it may be part of the same loop.

Maybe we each have our own favourite wall against which we keep bumping our head until either the wall or the head cracks open. In the first case we go off and find another wall, in the second we either go mad or become what we were meant to be.