Humorless

Dorothy Minder said:
I choose not to laugh at certain kinds of jokes. Those choices make some people uncomfortable -- like certain old friends who still enjoy TV, booze, and off-color jokes. I don't push my choices on others, but neither will I bend over backwards to accommodate vulgarity. If that sometimes means being "intense" or a spoilsport, so be it.

I think I know what you mean. I know people who try to be funny all the time, as if they were begging for love or acceptance because they think they cheer up people with their jokes. They are sometimes plainly rude, which I don't find funny at all, thus I don't laugh. Some amount of polite laughter is demanded, and if you don't laugh even when you don't find a particular "joke" funny, it can be considered as being rude.
I "choose" to laugh to what makes me laugh (mostly surreal humour I think) and not being fake about what doesn't make me laugh. I keep a polite silence while hoping that nobody asks why I didn't laugh, because most people wouldn't like a honest answer like "sorry, I didn't find that funny".
 
Hi, …in my case is more dense instead of “intense” … so in certain situations or moods, I am finding ways to laugh as a kind of medical prescription, this beginning of the year, it was unconsciously?... I mean I had realized recently that I was being disperse? … I choose to read lighter readings, but not knowing why. Well, it seems I needed it. Two stressful situations make their debuts this year, although I know that I am capable in dealing with them, still It will take time to readjust.

I choose also not to laugh basically from jokes from ether's people suffering. I had found myself that sometimes I do laugh in automatic and had been trying to change that. If I do not like people laughing at me, I should not do it either.

Courtesy smiles, I do it daily … I had seen changes in people's mood just with that simple action if it is for better, the merrier. Being silly with myself had helped me to lighter moods.

Double meaning jokes are plentiful in this country (mx), although I do not use tell them, I hear them and do laugh, in most cases, in other cases they (friends mostly) do laugh at me because I do not understand them (the jokes).

mabar
:D
 
Acaja said:
Hi Dorothy, I don't really understand when you say " I choose not to laugh [at] certain of jokes ". Could you clarify please? How can you choose not to laugh ? I mean, do you feel like laughing when [h]earing at some jokes, as stupid as they may sound, and then say "no way" ? And sorry if i misunderstood the concept.


Very good question. In answer to your example, no. It's not that I want to laugh, and then control myself. Rather, I would say my "choice" is to be conscious of the uses and meanings of humor, and then to laugh at whatever I consciously find funny. Here are a couple of examples to show what I mean.

1) People tend to laugh whenever someone of high status (like a boss or rich acquaintance) makes a joke, whether that joke was funny or not. Many people do this unconsciously. Part of them wants the high status person to like them, and laughing together is a natural way to ease the tensions that arise in any relationship based on power or status. For me, being conscious of this use of humor has changed my relationship to it. So now, whether I laugh or not depends more on the specific situation, and the actual joke. If I find the joke funny, I will probably laugh or crack a smile. If I consciously decide to help ease the tension, then I might smile even if the joke isn't very funny. But other times, I maintain the tension because it represents an important point of disagreement. My next example relates.

2) Say someone makes a joke about all women being illogical and needing men to think for them. Even if I know the joker very well, and even if I know that he is a loving husband, I will not laugh or smile. I cannot consciously reward someone for suggesting that women can't think for themselves. In this case, my silence represents conscious disagreement. Like Skycsil described.

So, in one sense, I choose not to laugh at certain kinds of jokes. In another sense, I don't choose at all -- I just don't find certain jokes or situations funny any more. I cannot consciously laugh at mean jokes about the suffering, embarrassment, or abuse of others. When I catch myself laughing unconsciously, I reflect and ask myself: "Was that really funny? Why?"

Is that clear?

Jerry, I like that one!
 
Dorothy Minder said:
Acaja said:
Hi Dorothy, I don't really understand when you say " I choose not to laugh [at] certain of jokes ". Could you clarify please? How can you choose not to laugh ? I mean, do you feel like laughing when [h]hearing at some jokes, as stupid as they may sound, and then say "no way" ? And sorry if i misunderstood the concept.


Very good question. In answer to your example, no. It's not that I want to laugh, and then control myself. Rather, I would say my "choice" is to be conscious of the uses and meanings of humor, and then to laugh at whatever I consciously find funny. Here are a couple of examples to show what I mean.

1) People tend to laugh whenever someone of high status (like a boss or rich acquaintance) makes a joke, whether that joke was funny or not. Many people do this unconsciously. Part of them wants the high status person to like them, and laughing together is a natural way to ease the tensions that arise in any relationship based on power or status. For me, being conscious of this use of humor has changed my relationship to it. So now, whether I laugh or not depends more on the specific situation, and the actual joke. If I find the joke funny, I will probably laugh or crack a smile. If I consciously decide to help ease the tension, then I might smile even if the joke isn't very funny. But other times, I maintain the tension because it represents an important point of disagreement. My next example relates.

2) Say someone makes a joke about all women being illogical and needing men to think for them. Even if I know the joker very well, and even if I know that he is a loving husband, I will not laugh or smile. I cannot consciously reward someone for suggesting that women can't think for themselves. In this case, my silence represents conscious disagreement. Like Skycsil described.

So, in one sense, I choose not to laugh at certain kinds of jokes. In another sense, I don't choose at all -- I just don't find certain jokes or situations funny any more. I cannot consciously laugh at mean jokes about the suffering, embarrassment, or abuse of others. When I catch myself laughing unconsciously, I reflect and ask myself: "Was that really funny? Why?"

Is that clear?

Jerry, I like that one!



Totally clear thank you Dorothy. I too think that laughing at someones misery is not the best thing to do , but I sometimes do it myself. What you've pointed out is very important : accepting the simple fact that a part of yourself is still attracted to this type of judgement and that instead of denying it when it happens, you can work with it so you can learn more about youself , that you are cruel, mean, selfish at a given instant but now that you can see it, you can deal with it properly.

As for the topic, I'd say that I've never lost my inner sense of humor even if like you all i've been realizing what was happenning out there. First because knowledge protects, so I often feel relieved for the few information i have. Second, because when you have humor, you have space. Space to think, space to find a solution, space to get a wider perspective. Nature makes me laugh, babies also a lot, not to tell about animals and my personal mechanic programs. Oh, and the thought of the knowledge I had let's say 5 years ago. yes, all of this makes me smile .
Humor helps me to have faith.
 
[quote author=Acaja] when you have humor, you have space. Space to think, space to find a solution, space to get a wider perspective.[/quote]

Well said.

Also, I want to thank everyone who contributed to this thread. Talking through this subject over the last few days has indeed helped me recognize and embrace a new way of relating to humor.

Best to all!
 
I recall Ouspensky telling Gurdjieff that, since progressing in the work, his friends began to find him boring. And Gurdjieff told him that he had probably ceased to lie like he used to. Myself, I find it easy to laugh when I want to but the ppl around me have said that I am too serious and thoughtful anymore. As Gurdjieff suggested, I play roles around friends and co workers to fit the situation. It makes life easier and helps my strategic enclosure. Ppl have said BE YOURSELF! But how can I do that if I really dont know for sure who I am yet? ;-)
 
mabar said:
Double meaning jokes are plentiful in this country (mx), although I do not use tell them, I hear them and do laugh, in most cases, in other cases they (friends mostly) do laugh at me because I do not understand them (the jokes).

Same here! some people in my family have a lot of fun at me because of that. I often do not react abut sexual jokes and puns, so when everyone around me is giggling I tend to look at them with my "please tell me what I missed" face :D
I know that makes me look as a naive person, but it doesn't really bother, I actually laugh at my own naiveness, perhaps because I find it healthy to not be thinking about sex all the time ;)
 
Keit said:
Dorothy Minder said:
My questions for the group are these:

Have any of you become "humorless"?

What do you do to relax?

What do you find funny? Has that changed? If so, how?

Any advice?

Thanks in advance!

It seems that there is a difference between humor and laughter as social/community/bonding experience that can also be a great opportunity to be externally considered, and personal or inner sense of humor or joy. And sometimes it is too easy to confuse the two and fall into the deadly seriousness of self importance. For example, Dabrowski's levels of laughter that correspond to his five levels of development could describe the progression of personal or inner sense of humor, from crude jokes or jokes that laugh at suffering of others, and to the deep feeling of joy and empathy. Below is a a quote that talks about it. But I think that when you find yourself in company of people that need cheering up or who are not ready for heavy conversations or spiritual humor and just want to have a small talk, it is still possible to keep your personal level of humor and still be engaging and humorous. True wit is creative and adaptable. And regardless of Dabrowski's description and his theory on how laughter or humor should express itself in high level individuals, I am sure that even most dedicated warriors dance a silly chicken dance from time to time! At least they should. :)

The category of multilevelness is the main description pivot for the development depiction of the psychic world36 and is used to capture its hierarchical disposition. While reading Iliad and Odyssey 'a is easy to notice, that the world of feelings is described by the poet in the vertical, hierarchical and multilevel perspective.

An example for this may be laughter and smile. Alas I searched the overall interpretation of laughter and smile in Homer's eposes to no avail, so I cannot refer to it at the moment37. Here is my personal attempt to apply distinction upon levels of laughter, carried out by K. Dąbrowski to the texts of Iliad and Odyssey.

Laughter changes depending on the level it is referring to. And so the laughter of Tersytes' army at its leader, who had been beaten by Odysseus (II, 270: hedu gelassan, Chapman: laught delightsomely, Pope: -, Lang - Leaf - Myers: laughed lightly) I would put on the first level, which is described by Dąbrowski as follows: (...) Laughter is primitive, loud, brutal, physiological. It is frequently evoked by watching someone's misfortune or humiliation (...) Laughter has the character of a collective release of primitive emotions38.

Sardonic laughter of Odysseus after Ctesippus had tried to hit him with a calf leg (ct above) (20, 301-302: medeise de thumo39 / sardanion mala toion, Chapman: A laughter raising most Sardaman, Pope: The chief indignant grins a ghastly smile, Butcher - Lang: smiled right grimly in his heart) may be situated on the second level: Laughter becomes calmer and less coarse. It is more psychological and often subdued.40 (...)41.

Laughter of Hector and Andromache evoked by their son's fright (cf. above) (VI, 471: ek d' egelasse, Chapman: Laughter affected, Pope: With secret pleasure each fond parent smiled, Lang-Leaf-Myers: Then his dear father laughed aloud, and his lady mother) would suit the third level by Dąbrowski: Laughter becomes more differentiated, quiet and subtle. There is a distinct kind of smile which begins to predominate over loud laughter. The smile reveals a history of grave experience and an increasing introvertization. (...) experiences of shame and guilt, concern for responsibility, and desire for reparation in relation to someone who was, or could have been, harmed and hurt (...)42.

Laughter of Hector looking in silence for the last time at his son (VI, 404: meidesen idon es paida siope. Chapman: Hector, though griefe bereft his speech, yet smil'd upon his joy., Pope: Silent the warrior smiled, Lang - Leaf- Myers: So now he smiled and gazed at his boy silently) may again be compared to the fourth level in Dąbrowskian model: Collective laughter disappears; it is replaced by subtle individual laughter and most often by an individual smile which is moral, esthetic, a smile toward the ideal, a smile of mutual understanding in the most subtle things. The past history of suffering and agony can be clearly discerned in such empathic smile.43

Finally the laughter through tears of Andromache (VI, 484: dakruoen gelasasa, Chapman: his mother, whose faire eyes fresh streames of love's salt fire, Pope: She mingled with a smile a tender tear, Lang - Leaf- Myers: smiling tearfully) refers to the highest level: Smile is autonomous and authentic (...) It is a smile of the highest empathy in recognizing and appreciating the existential unrepeatibility of „I" and the unrepeatibility of „Thou". (...) a smile (...) is both existential and transcendental. (...) But it can also be a smile that radiates joy, yet not without the awareness of and compassion for human sorrow.44

Thank you for that succinct summary Keit.

Laughter seems to be such an integral part of life, whatever the situation, and i've always wondered about its levels and, perhaps, its purpose. Dabrowski, though i have a long way to go in grokking his work, for me, can so clearly explicate and categorise topics.. The sixth category also goes some way to explaining that expression: 'a smile that radiates joy yet not without the awareness of and compassion for human sorrow' commonly found on the face of those rare individuals - like Dabrowski himself in those 2 videos; i've mentioned before he just exudes patience and understanding. And having a an idea of the gradation/multilevelness helps alot.

I think it's an interesting exercise to ponder the humour in your life, and the varied forms it takes, in relation to the above.
 

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