I have a dilemma

[bjorb]

[quote author= Pashalis]A quote that fits here:

"There is good, there is evil and the specific situation that determines which is which"[/quote]

I think this quote is also fitting:

[quote author= Life is real only then, when 'I am' p136
]Sincerity with everyone in general is weakness, slavery and even a sign of hysteria.
Although the normal man must be able to be sincere, yet he must also know when, where and for what purpose it is necessary to be sincere.
[/quote]

 

[Kay Kim]

In this world people lies all the time.
But we are passing this worldly things and trying to be better person, because we have the knowledge.
So, when we lies deliberately, then it will cause person's own soul be wounded and the scars will stay forever, no matter how small or white lie.

Imagine, how can we live like that?
I think best way is tells what you believe, or don't need to tell everything.
One thing I believe is we have to stay firmly in our own position until we can safely cross to the higher realm.

 

[Chu]

In this world people lies all the time.
But we are passing this worldly things and trying to be better person, because we have the knowledge.
So, when we lies deliberately, then it will cause person's own soul be wounded and the scars will stay forever, no matter how small or white lie.

Imagine, how can we live like that?
I think best way is tells what you believe, or don't need to tell everything.
One thing I believe is we have to stay firmly in our own position until we can safely cross to the higher realm.

I agree with your point, in general terms, but we have to be careful of each situation and not have general rules that should not always be applied blindly.

In Laurelayn's case here, lying won't accomplish much an could possibly hurt others, or so it seems from the details she has provided. But in other cases, lying is NOT "soul wounding" or anything like that. Say for example, that you are in your house with a good friend of yours, and she goes to the toilet. Suddenly a madman comes looking for her, and he has a gun. He asks you, "Where is your friend???!!!". If you tell the truth, your friend dies. If you lie, the madman might go away or look for her somewhere else, and his "soul" has nothing to do with it. See? Lying in that case is the right thing to do.

This might not be the best example, but I hope you get the idea. Even when there is no "madman" involved, and just people on a different path, the point is to be external considerate, while defending your own path. It all depends on the situation. Sometimes you have to lie to do that, the other person is happy with the lie, and so are you because they let you be.

And I think this is a big part of "crossing to the higher realm", as you put it. If we don't even learn these simple lessons, we are "food", and we haven't learned enough to go anywhere.

 

[bjorb]

Hi Kay Kim


[quote author= Kay Kim]So, when we lies deliberately, then it will cause person's own soul be wounded and the scars will stay forever, no matter how small or white lie.[/quote]

We can lie to others not only for our sake, but also theirs.

The truth will serve no purpose for those who are not ready to receive. And especially when they react hostile to it.

That doesn't say that we shouldn't spread awareness. We should always do that, but the way in which we spread the truth makes all the difference. OSIT.


[quote author= Kay Kim]I think best way is tells what you believe, or don't need to tell everything.[/quote]

I think so to. It's worth a shot, conforming to their ignorance is also not part of practicing true compassion. At least they get a fair chance of siding with the truth by sharing the facts. If they refuse it, you at least tried.


[quote author= Kay Kim]One thing I believe is we have to stay firmly in our own position until we can safely cross to the higher realm.[/quote]

I agree but we can lie for the greater good, sometimes we have to I think. But only when we lie against our own conscience do we forsake ourselves. Staying true to ourselves is staying true to our conscience. That's how we stay firm. OSIT. :)

 

[monotonic]

I don't think you will have to convince them that vaccines are bad, just show them that even based on vaccine information, their child should not be in danger from contact with an unvaccinated person.

I think there is a specific strategy forming in this thread if you read carefully:

First: Refuse to get vaccinated, and see if he changes his position. If so, then there is no need for any further drama or risk!
Second: If he refuses, show him the authorities he is aligned with, who say themselves that a vaccinated person is not in danger from an unvaccinated person. Still no need to challenge his authority figures!
Third: Show him a SOTT article that focuses on the contradictions and nonsense in the MSM narrative on vaccines. Last resort, but at this point rather unlikely to be persuasive!

If at any point he states he states he is uninterested in discussing it, then do not push him any further, he has made his choice and the best thing to do is to let him be.

 

[bjorb]

[quote author= Kay kim]So, when we lies deliberately, then it will cause person's own soul be wounded and the scars will stay forever, no matter how small or white lie.[/quote]

To clarify why it can be helpful to lie in this situation :

Because otherwise they (pro vaccine side) risk tearing the family apart.

And being isolated from them there is nothing you could do for them.

They sadly buy the vaccine propaganda. But maybe there is hope in other controversial subjects you could inform them about. And besides, if you care about them, you want to keep seeing them, just be careful that the relationship doesn't turn toxic. Because such demands are simply beyond ignorant and heartless.


Family is important. But only when there is truly a caring family to speak of.

And to add, Gurdjieff once said: Common Aim is stronger than blood.

You can only be truly united in spirit :)

 

[Kay Kim]

Thank you Chu and bjorn, I got your points. Its make me somewhat easy for my consciousness.

But Laurelayn's situation is not life threatening.
And what if her son demand to see some kind of proven vaccination.
What if her son found out later she was lied to him. Then it will cause irreparable effects.

If she can act naturally, then no problem, but I noticed that when people lies, they looks somewhat awkward.

 

[Laurelayn]

Everyone lies...it is part of the human condition.
A side story to this situation is that my daughter in laws mother came down with guillian barre syndrome in June, she is now paralyzed and in a wheel chair. I have to wonder if she got immunized in anticipation of the new grandchild and it resulted in her condition.
I called my son and told him I could not conform to his request, It is not worth the risk to myself and there is no proof, anywhere, that the baby is at any heightened risk by coming in contact with me. I also told him that guillian barre is a possible side effect of immunization. He said he would look into it and speak with his wife.
We talked again last night and they decided that they are too paranoid (my words, not his) that I may be infectious and cannot come close to my granddaughter. He said he could not find anything about vaccines being detrimental or that gullian barre is a possible side effect.
I told him he must not have looked very hard.
Then he said they had consulted their precious "baby doctor" and she told them it wasn't worth the risk to expose the baby to unvaccinated grand parents, so, I'm fairly certain he never "looked into" anything, they just asked the authority.
(there is a pediatrician I'd like to slap upside the head in Co. right now)

I've had a good relationship with my son and we are fond of his wife as well.
I am grateful to the person that reminded me of the over protectiveness of new parents, without that reminder I would not be taking this as well as I am.
I am very sad, but, I am also feeling empowered by doing the right thing for myself.
At another time in my life I would have been devastated.
Either way, whether I ran down to wallgreens and got the jab or didn't, I would have been devastated by the rejection of my principles by myself or my son.
I have been doing a LOT of reading from the suggested reading list in the last year, and a lot of difficult work on myself.
I have been practicing EE, mindful presence, approaching my thought processes with gentle kind curiosity and I began therapy 2 months ago. My therapist is using EMDR with me, it is a truly amazing how much more at ease I am with the whole of my life and myself.
Fear of rejection has been a huge thing for me, and when my son told me that this would be a requirement for my visit I felt like I had been punched in the stomach, and I noticed myself go into a dissociative state. I stayed there for 3 days until my therapy session yesterday where I was able to find a place in my history that was a part of the cause as to why I end up in that state. I have a long way to go. Every day my efforts bring me closer to myself, it is slow and painful at times, but so worth it as I begin to find wonderful bits of myself inside this mess.
Thank you everyone for sharing your thoughts with me on this subject, it has been helpful and I appreciate your time and effort.

 

[Chu]

I am very sad, but, I am also feeling empowered by doing the right thing for myself.

It is very sad when a loved one is so authoritarian, and decides what your son decided out of fear, ignorance, etc. But know that you are NOT rejected here at all. And that praraphrazing Laura, going about it differently and saying "yes" when your real self wants to say "no", kills a part of you. So, if you did what was in you, you don't have any regrets to have. Your son may understand one day, or he may not. But I think you did the best you could do.

Fear of rejection has been a huge thing for me, and when my son told me that this would be a requirement for my visit I felt like I had been punched in the stomach, and I noticed myself go into a dissociative state. I stayed there for 3 days until my therapy session yesterday where I was able to find a place in my history that was a part of the cause as to why I end up in that state. I have a long way to go. Every day my efforts bring me closer to myself, it is slow and painful at times, but so worth it as I begin to find wonderful bits of myself inside this mess.

Good! Glad to know that your therapist is helping you with that. And you can always network here if you want. It takes effort, pain and commitment to let that other (truer) part of yourself have a voice, but little by little, it's possible.

 

[casper]

I'm truly sorry that you will not see the first days of your granddaughter, I hope that your son eventually figure out what he did.

I just came across this article;Mandatory HPV Vaccine For Kids In 7th Grade In Order To Stay In Public School
http://lifestyleinterest.com/mandatory-hpv-vaccine-for-kids-in-7th-grade/

 

[bjorb]

[quote author= Laurelayn]Then he said they had consulted their precious "baby doctor" and she told them it wasn't worth the risk to expose the baby to unvaccinated grand parents, so, I'm fairly certain he never "looked into" anything, they just asked the authority.
(there is a pediatrician I'd like to slap upside the head in Co. right now)[/quote]

This pediatrician gave advice on behalf of the ruling pathocracy. By doing so you aid in and prolong the suffering of others. If truth and justice ever prevails people like that and millions of others should be punished accordingly. You have every right to be mad.

Your son demanded that you should jeopardize your health on behalf of their ignorance. He does not realize it, but it's criminal. OSIT.


[quote author= Chu]Your son may understand one day, or he may not. But I think you did the best you could do.[/quote]

I think so to and by taking this stance he might even start to do his own homework about the vaccine agenda instead of blindly following the authoritarian rule. Not playing along with monstrous lies can work to help other people think more critically. But it's not a guarantee ofcourse.


Take care Laurelayn and be carefull for further possible confrontations. The Vaccine Agenda is only heating up and through that it will continue on to split families apart.

 

[theos]

Take care Laurelayn and be carefull for further possible confrontations. The Vaccine Agenda is only heating up and through that it will continue on to split families apart.

Indeed. Vaccination is a very hot button issue now and it seems it will only get more divisive as time passes. I shudder to think how bad it will get and how many more crazies will come out of the woodwork.

(there is a pediatrician I'd like to slap upside the head in Co. right now)

I'm glad that you're feeling good about your decision to stand up for yourself, Laurelayn.

 

[T.C.]

Even if there were assumptions on both sides, that still doesn't justify your attitude.

I'm sorry I reacted the way I did. I wish I hadn't written my response the way I wrote it. That's not the way I want to give feedback.

Sorry, hlat.

 

[Nienna]

Take care Laurelayn and be carefull for further possible confrontations. The Vaccine Agenda is only heating up and through that it will continue on to split families apart.

Indeed. Vaccination is a very hot button issue now and it seems it will only get more divisive as time passes. I shudder to think how bad it will get and how many more crazies will come out of the woodwork.

(there is a pediatrician I'd like to slap upside the head in Co. right now)

I'm glad that you're feeling good about your decision to stand up for yourself, Laurelayn.

Ditto here, Laurelayn. Kudos to you for sticking to your guns and doing what is right for you!

And, I am so very glad that you have a therapists that is really helping you. How great is that!?! And, as Chu said, you always have us here to "talk" to or to support you. We are your family, too.

 

[neema]

I'm sorry I reacted the way I did. I wish I hadn't written my response the way I wrote it.

Hi TC.
If you hadn’t then how would you learn from it?

That's not the way I want to give feedback.
Sorry, hlat.

Awesome, that’s more important IMO. To make a mistake and to learn from it is only human.

I myself have struggled all my life with perfectionism, so I know the feeling well. Boy if I had a dollar for every time I said I wish I had never done that or the other.

Don’t be too hard on yourself and I think this goes very well with the idea of letting people make mistakes so they can learn from.

Laurelayn I think you approached the situation pretty well.
I have a similar experience I like to share. Maybe not to the same degree.

For years I had hidden the fact that I am a smoker from my parents. Once in a while during this time when I visited them they always asked if I’m a smoker because you can’t always hide the smell. And always I had to come up with some lame excuse.
One day I just decided to admit to them that I do, but that I’m also a grown individual and will make my own decisions. After all I don’t approve of many things they do in their life but I don’t lecture them or give them unwanted advice.

I really didn’t think they would listen but to my surprise they accepted it and now we have a better relationship. In considering their feelings, I make an effort to not smoke around them and they have accepted to not give me unwanted advice about it.

Furthermore, my sister recently had her first son and knowing I’m a smoker told me that when I visit I have to always wash up after and change my shirt before I would have any interaction with her son.

It’s natural for new parents to be hyper fearful in the hysterical society we have today.

Although I felt the request was a little silly, I complied as it is a very small inconvenience but helps ease her fears.

So I agree with the general consensus that if it’s not a life or death situation you don’t need to lie.

FWIW.