Imitation Fourth Way Groups Started by Gurdjieff Rejects

Rhino said:
Everytime dissent is oppressed - be it passively or actively - something is seriously amiss.

The dictionary definition of "dissent" is "to differ in opinion". Therefore, you seem to be suggesting that this forum should be more tolerant of "differences of opinion". If that's the case, then you are seriously misunderstanding the aim and purpose of this forum. That aim and purpose is not, like most public forums, to provide an environment for people to trade "opinions", with the assumption that all "opinions" are equally valid. The aim is to achieve OBJECTIVE information, knowledge, and understanding via a group network, to maximize the signal-to-noise ratio.

"Opinions" are subjective in nature. As explained in the Forum Guidelines,

Subjective is the story about the blind men and the elephant - they all think that the elephant is the part of it that they are feeling and that is all there is. Objective is when they begin to share their observations and come to the realization that the elephant is more than what each of them experiences independently. Someone who can see would experience more of the elephant than the blind men, though this seeing would still be limited. Objective is the elephant as it experiences itself added to the observations of the blind men added together with view of the one who can see. It takes a group to achieve such objectivity. But once each of them has shared their perceptions and experience, and all of the group have assimilated this information, they can all then achieve an objective understanding of the elephant - or very close.

You may find it helpful to review the Forum Guidelines and to read the forum thread titled Opinions.

Rhino said:
I think that any type of significant bias, even if it is a "good bias" will risk distorting the discussion climate and ultimately make some people, who should have every right to post, feel uncomfortable about posting things which go against that bias.

The dictionary definition of "bias" is "an inclination of temperament or outlook; especially : a personal and sometimes unreasoned judgment : prejudice : an instance of such prejudice". To echo anart, you seem to be saying that this forum's perspective is "skewed" in some way; it would be more useful if you were to explicitly state what you think that "bias" or "prejudice" is -- so that we can look at it objectively -- than to make such a vague and a generalized statement.

Also, no one on this forum has a "right" to post anything. We are all here as guests of its founders, who have established very specific parameters of discussion and enquiry:

Forum Guidelines said:
Our Vision for this forum: To create an environment for the stimulation, development and then the alignment of objective consciousnesses as defined and described by the Cassiopaeans with the able help of Georges Gurdjieff, Mouravieff, Castaneda, and many other sources available to us. The foundation of this forum is The Cassiopaean Experiment, the layout of the rooms is generally modelled after the work of Gurdjieff and Mouravieff, the decor and details are filled in by Castaneda and many modern psychological studies.

Given the above description of the aim and purpose of this forum, as established by its founders, don't you think it is both reasonable and appropriate that someone who explicitly rejects and refuses to even consider the "foundation of this forum" -- i.e. The Cassiopaean Experiment -- would be removed by the moderators, in order to cut down on noise and distraction and maintain the forum's focus?
 
Rhino said:
Could someone spell this out for me...


Those of us who believe ourselves to be sincere in the Work, approach it with the understanding that our personal metaphysics - our particular 'reality construction' has been severely ponerized. Every perception, thought, impression, belief and concept is suspect and has to be questioned. We even have to think about the methods we use to analyze our thinking.

G. teaches us that the struggle between yes and no (self-discipline) is a useful friction. It is one way by which an individual can sense that there is something within him/her that may eventually crystallize into something that may survive death of the physical body, but it has to have time and proper training to develop into something immortal.
A great deal of work is needed as well as the sacrifice involved in paying all in advance.

All that implies the existence of a certain humility and self-restraint when interacting with other individuals, so when you take a look at the post that contains the following:

Amir said:
I'm not sure who you are or how long you have been involved here but I was...
You're right about my self-importance...
That this community panders to a medium (the C-transcripts) ...
And yes, I have an agenda...it's called a topic
Laura took her position...I took my corresponding position...
Your psychological posture towards me is...
you bark like a dog or wolf marking its territory...

Laura, your tendency is to reference copious amounts of material and make statements which have the air of final verdicts. It is clear to me that you are seeing things from one hell of a warped pair of glasses. How do you think you are going to pass through the eye of a needle when you carry so much luggage? The sheer level of complication you and your group create and maintain is the opposite of what it is to develop in the Work.

...what do you see? I see what appears to be a resentful, vindictive 'I' in charge of that Work, where the only thing required to develop a magnetic center is to simply soak up 'B' influences like pac-man until saturation.


Rhino said:
Everytime dissent is oppressed - be it passively or actively - something is seriously amiss.

The way we are "supposed" to think and act in certain circumstances is a large part of the coerced social conditioning most of us have been exposed to while growing up.

Because there is a strong tendency to self-deception, it is also useful to take the time to critically analyze information given in the posts - especially when one's emotions are stimulated - not just blindly accept the 'fact' that just because one's personal 'rules' seem to be violated that the fault must lie with 'the other'.


--edit: punctuation for clarity
 
When meeting new ideas lot of things can be blurry and missrepresented almost cryptic, same with the books, level of knowledge/awareness is dominant factor in real understanding of any material, and will be different with every new reading if subjects knowledge/awareness level changes with the time (if you did not read Wave series for long time, try now, you'll notice difference :D).

I will use name of G.I. Gurdjief last book as a conclusion: Life is only real, then, when "I am", after all learning is fun (C's are right)!!!

Greetings to whole team:)
 
I have try to sent this to supermoderator ,but the message was blocked . so I post here
I am Italian, so i apologize for my rude English.
I want to know why you deleted Amir.
It is not possible here post anything in respect with netiquette that is contrary to some views? I don' know what is That "C" of whom Amir is not a fan... It is a living master with i may have a physical relation? If not, in my belief of what is C influence , is still B influence ( C embodied in some form not human so becoming B)
I have read iust a piece of post opinion:but i asked bluntly: there is a line here of objective truth? There is the elephant that explain it self ?There are some "slices" of elephant that some people here, the founders, take for absolute truth ?
So how may I ,that have just subiective truth and beliefs post here and try to give my piece of slice to be worked ?

So i ask you, that is supermoderator how i may move here without been deleted .
Thank you romano
 
romano said:
So i ask you, that is supermoderator how i may move here without been deleted .
Thank you romano

Just read the forum guidelines

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=9553.0

and respect them. It is as easy as that.
 
Interesting to see the Arica 'Work' mentioned in this thread. I was an Arican for over thirty years and met Oscar Ichazo on a number of occasions. In my opinion Oscar Ichazo matches the "spellbinder" pathological type very well. I think that this was what Naranjo and John Bleibtreu were trying to warn others about when they returned from Chile to Esalen to report on what they found. The Naranjo "retrospect" that can be found in this thread is mostly myth making. I am thankful to Laura for pointing me in the direction of the ponerology work as it has been very useful in putting the last piece of the jigsaw together with respect to Arica.

The Arica movement in my opinion and experience needs to come with a mental health warning.
 
James Burns said:
Interesting to see the Arica 'Work' mentioned in this thread. I was an Arican for over thirty years and met Oscar Ichazo on a number of occasions. In my opinion Oscar Ichazo matches the "spellbinder" pathological type very well. I think that this was what Naranjo and John Bleibtreu were trying to warn others about when they returned from Chile to Esalen to report on what they found. The Naranjo "retrospect" that can be found in this thread is mostly myth making. I am thankful to Laura for pointing me in the direction of the ponerology work as it has been very useful in putting the last piece of the jigsaw together with respect to Arica.

The Arica movement in my opinion and experience needs to come with a mental health warning.

Hi James Burns,

Welcome to this forum. Since you are a new member, i invite you to make a short intro in the Newbies section. Just tell the forum's members how you have discovered this site, if you have read the Wave, if you are familiar with the work of Gurdjieff.
 
From the Herald of Coming Good Page 8

Before venturing to unfold the very substance of my first appeal to contemporary humanity, I count it essential and even in every way my duty, to set forth—even if only approximately—the motives which compelled me to assume the whole burden of such an artificial life.

This protracted and, for me, absolutely unnatural life. absolutely irreconcilable, too, in every way with the traits that had entrenched themselves in my individuality by the time of my maturity, was the direct consequence of my decision, founded upon the results of my previous study of a whole series of historic precedents with a view, first of all,—to preventing, by to a certain degree unnatural outward manifestations of myself, the formation, in relation to me, of that already noted from ancient times " something ", termed by the great Solomon, King of
Juda, " Tzvarnoharno" , which, as was set out by our ancestors, forms itself by a natural process in the communal life of people as an outcome of a conjunction of the evil actions of so-called " common people " and leads to the destruction of both him that tries to achieve something for general human welfare and of all that he has already accomplished to this end. Secondly, with a view,—to counteracting the manifestation in people with whom I came in contact of that inherent trait which, embedded as it is in the psyche of people and acting as an impediment to the realization of my aims, evokes from them, when confronted with other more or less prominent people, the functioning of the feeling of enslavement, paralysing once and for all their capacity for displaying the personal initiative of which I then stood in particular need.

So Gurdjieff here explains two reasons for his taking an artificial role on for 21years of his teaching. One reason : his 'acting' the hard taskmaster who presses everyones corns as an offensive position to prevent slavish hero worship which would have put the focus on him rather than the message. The other; to avoid attracting Tzvarnoharno? How does this operate as a defence against 'Tzvarhoharno'?

My aim at that time was concentrated upon the creation of conditions permitting the comprehensive elucidation of one complicated and with difficulty explicable aspect of the question which had, already long before the beginning of this my artificial life, inhered in my being, and the necessity of whose final solution has, whether by the will of fate or thanks to the inscrutable laws of heredity, become and would, at the moment, appear to be the fundamental aim of my whole life and of the force motivating my activity.
 
It becomes easier to understand what Gurdjieff meant and was about by reading "Life is Real..." He also is quoted talking about this "artificial role" in ISOTM. Can anyone find the passage where he mentions that the teacher can lie to the student for didactic purposes, but the student must always be sincere with the teacher or there is no way the teacher can help him. Also, the passages about barriers and tasks.
 
Laura said:
It becomes easier to understand what Gurdjieff meant and was about by reading "Life is Real..." He also is quoted talking about this "artificial role" in ISOTM. Can anyone find the passage where he mentions that the teacher can lie to the student for didactic purposes, but the student must always be sincere with the teacher or there is no way the teacher can help him. Also, the passages about barriers and tasks.

On barriers, tasks, and honesty/sincerity:

"The struggle against the 'false I,' against one's chief feature or chief fault, is the
most important part of the work, and it must proceed in deeds, not in words. For this
purpose the teacher gives each man definite tasks which require, in order to carry them
out, the conquest of his chief feature. When a man carries out these tasks he struggles
with himself, works on himself. If he avoids the tasks, tries not to carry them out, it
means that either he does not want to or that he cannot work.

"As a rule only very easy tasks are given at the beginning which the teacher does
not even call tasks, and he does not say much about them but gives them in the form of
hints. If he sees that he is understood and that the tasks are carried out he passes on to
more and more difficult ones.

"More difficult tasks, although they are only subjectively difficult, are called
'barriers.' The peculiarity of barriers consists in the fact that, having surmounted a
serious barrier, a man can no longer return to ordinary sleep, to ordinary life. And if,
having passed the first barrier, he feels afraid of those that follow and does not go on,
he stops so to speak between two barriers and is unable to move either backwards or
forwards. This is the worst thing that can happen to a man. Therefore the teacher is
usually very careful in the choice of tasks and barriers, in other words, he takes the
risk of giving definite tasks requiring the conquest of inner barriers only to those
people who have already shown themselves sufficiently strong on small barriers.

"It often happens that, having stopped before some barrier, usually the smallest and
the most simple, people turn against the work, against the teacher, and against other
members of the group, and accuse them of the very thing that is becoming revealed to
them in themselves.

"Sometimes they repent later and blame themselves, then they again blame others,
then they repent once more, and so on. But there is nothing that shows up a man better
than his attitude towards the work and the teacher after he has left it. Sometimes such
tests are arranged intentionally. A man is placed in such a position that he is obliged to
leave and he is fully justified in having a grievance either against the teacher or against
some other person. And then he is watched to see how he will behave. A decent man
will behave decently even if he thinks that he has been
treated unjustly or wrongly. But many people in such circumstances show a side of
their nature which otherwise they would never show. And at times it is a necessary
means for exposing a man's nature. So long as you are good to a man he is good to
you. But what will he be like if you scratch him a little?

"But this is not the chief thing; the chief thing is his own personal attitude, his own
valuation of the ideas which he receives or has received, and his keeping or losing this
valuation. A man may think for a long time and quite sincerely that he wants to work
and even make great efforts, and then he may throw up everything and even definitely
go against the work; justify himself, invent various fabrications, deliberately ascribe a
wrong meaning to what he has heard, and so on."

"What happens to them for this?" asked one of the audience.

"Nothing—what could happen to them?" said G. "They are their own punishment.
And what punishment could be worse?

"It is impossible to describe in full the way work in a group is conducted," continued
G. "One must go through it. All that has been said up to now are only hints, the true
meaning of which will only be revealed to those who go on with the work and learn
from experience what 'barriers' mean and what difficulties they represent.

"Speaking in general the most difficult barrier is the conquest of lying. A man lies so
much and so constantly both to himself and to others that he ceases to notice it.
Nevertheless lying must be conquered. And the first effort required of a man is to
conquer lying in relation to the teacher. A man must either decide at once to tell him
nothing but the truth, or at once give up the whole thing.

"You must realize that the teacher takes a very difficult task upon himself, the
cleaning and the repair of human machines. Of course he accepts only those machines
that are within his power to mend. If something essential is broken or put out of order
in the machine, then he refuses to take it. But even such machines, which by their
nature could still be cleaned, become quite hopeless if they begin to tell lies. A lie to
the teacher, even the most insignificant, concealment of any kind such as the
concealment of something another has asked to be kept secret, or of something the man
himself has said to another, at once puts an end to the work of that man, especially if
he has previously made any efforts.


"Here is something you must bear in mind. Every effort a man makes increases the
demands made upon him. So long as a man has not made any serious efforts the
demands made upon him are very small, but his efforts immediately increase the
demands made upon him. And the greater the efforts that are made, the greater the new
demands.

"At this stage people very often make a mistake that is constantly made. They think
that the efforts they have previously made, their former merits, so to speak, give them
some kind of rights or advantages, diminish the
demands to be made upon them, and constitute as it were an excuse should they not
work or should they afterwards do something wrong. This, of course, is most
profoundly false. Nothing that a man did yesterday excuses him today. Quite the
reverse, if a man did nothing yesterday, no demands are made upon him today; if he
did anything yesterday, it means that he must do more today. This certainly does not
mean that it is better to do nothing. Whoever does nothing receives nothing.

"As I have said already, one of the first demands is sincerity. But there are different
kinds of sincerity. There is clever sincerity and there is stupid sincerity, just as there is
clever insincerity and stupid insincerity. Both stupid sincerity and stupid insincerity
are equally mechanical. But if a man wishes to learn to be cleverly sincere, he must be
sincere first of all with his teacher and with people who are senior to him in the work.
This will be 'clever sincerity.' But here it is necessary to note that sincerity must not
become 'lack of considering.' Lack of considering in relation to the teacher or in
relation to those whom the teacher has appointed, as I have said already, destroys all
possibility of any work. If he wishes to learn to be cleverly insincere he must be
insincere about the work and he must learn to be silent when he ought to be silent with
people outside it, who can neither understand nor appreciate it. But sincerity in the
group is an absolute demand, because, if a man continues to lie in the group in the
same way as he lies to himself and to others in life, he will never learn to distinguish
the truth from a lie.


"The second barrier is very often the conquest of fear. A man usually has many
unnecessary, imaginary fears. Lies and fears—this is the atmosphere in which an
ordinary man lives. Just as the conquest of lying is individual, so also is the conquest
of fear. Every man has fears of his own which are peculiar to him alone. These fears
must first be found and then destroyed. The fears of which I speak are usually
connected with the lies among which a man lives. You must realize that they have
nothing in common with the fear of spiders or of mice or of a dark room, or with
unaccountable nervous fears.

"The struggle against lying in oneself and the struggle against fears is the first
positive work which a man begins to do.

"One must realize in general that positive efforts and even sacrifices in the work do
not justify or excuse mistakes which may follow. On the contrary, things that could be
forgiven in a man who has made no efforts and who has sacrificed nothing will not be
forgiven in another who has already made great sacrifices.

"This seems to be unjust, but one must understand the law. There is, as it were, a
separate account kept for every man. His efforts and sacrifices are written down on
one side of the book and his mistakes and misdeeds on the other side. What is written
down on the positive side can never atone for what is written down on the negative
side. What is recorded on the negative side can only be wiped out by the truth, that
is to say, by an instant and complete confession to himself and to others and above all
to the teacher. If a man sees his fault but continues to justify himself, a small offense
may destroy the result of whole years of work and effort. In the work, therefore, it is
often better to admit one's guilt even when one is not guilty. But this again is a
delicate matter and it must not be exaggerated. Otherwise the result will again be
lying, and lying prompted by fear."

On the teacher lying:

Only two people dropped off who, exactly as though through some kind of magic as
it seemed to us, suddenly ceased to understand anything and saw in everything that G.
said misunderstanding on his part, and, on the part of the rest, a lack of, sympathy and
feeling.

This attitude, at first mistrustful and suspicious and then openly hostile to almost all
of us, coming from nobody knew where and full of strange and quite unexpected
accusations, astonished us very much.

"We made everything a secret"; we failed to tell them what G. had spoken of in
their absence. We told tales about them to G., trying to make him distrust them. We
recounted to him all talks with them, leading him constantly into error by distorting all
the facts and striving to present everything in a false light. We had given G. wrong
impressions about them, making him see everything far from as it was.

At the same time G. himself had "completely changed," had become altogether
different from what he used to be before, had become harsh, requiring, had lost all
feeling and all interest for individual people, had ceased to demand the truth from
people; that he preferred to have round him people such as were afraid to tell him the
truth, who were hypocrites, who threw flowers at one another and at the same time
spied on the others.

We were amazed at all these and similar talks. They brought with them immediately
a kind of entirely new atmosphere which up to this time we had not had. And it was
particularly strange because precisely at this time most of us were in a very emotional
state and were particularly well disposed towards these two protesting members of our
group.

We tried many times to talk to G. about them. He laughed very much when we told
him that in their opinion we always gave him "wrong impressions" of them.

"How they value the work," he said, "and what a miserable idiot I am from their
point of view; how easily I am deceived! You see that they have ceased to understand
the most important thing. In the work the teacher of the work cannot be deceived. This
is a law which proceeds from what has been said about knowledge and being. I may
deceive you if I want to. But you cannot deceive me. If it were otherwise you would
not learn from me and I would have to learn from you.
"
 

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