Intense learning experience at work yesterday

[luke wilson]

Ok, I am noticing a pattern here. There is a big hole forming and I am busy digging my way into it. I will say where I got my ideas from Jerry.

The distinction you made that sappers are unaware of being one and that vampires are aware, seems as a "convenient" construct.

Ok, before I read this thread, I never heard of sappers before. So everything I know about sappers is only in this page.

ok here goes. I have bolded the relevant bits.

We talked about how if this is really the case, her friend probably has no idea what is going on, and isn't doing it intentionally. The solution we came up with was to put more concrete limits on the amount of time that they spend together, since the feeling of being drained of energy correlates with the amount of time spent together in any one instance. This doesn't punish the friend who might be an unconscious "sapper", but still helps to protect my daughter from being food.

It requires some careful observation to realize that the sapper is nearly always extremely self-centered. He probably does not realize this himself, and he may be completely unaware of what he actually does to other people around him.

Hi Chopper. Thanks for your encouragement. I'd like to say, though, that in this case Sam's 'sapping' is a kind of unconscious vampirism. I think he really is unaware of what he does. I think that his image of himself is that of a helpful, altruistic, warm-hearted man. He might even be quite shocked to discover his effect on people.

So ok, from this I got the idea that sappers are probably unaware of what they do.

Ok, now about vampires.

If you check this thread on organic portals that page [http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=457.msg173141#msg173141]

There is a discussion going on where vampires come up. I will quote one.

When we have had narcissists for parents and learned at a very early age that is NOT OK to say no because our very survival depended on the “make nice” program, I think it is more difficult later to learn how to say No without feeling great anxiety. And then it becomes part of the false personality - we want to be nice people, unlike our narcissist parents. Finally, we begin to draw these vampires into our lives because they can spot our programs and see we are ripe for feeding. Also I think we draw them because they feel familiar.

Also this thread called 'my girlfriend' goes into vampires [http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=15537.msg162189#msg162189]

From this I got the idea that vampires are aware to some extent about there action but cannot stop themselves because they are addicts of there nature.

Also, why do you think self protection from a sapper can't be done without removing them from the vicinity?

I did not say this. I said that a better way of protection would be to learn how the mechanics of a sapper works so as we could devise a better defense against them. Simply removing yourself from the vicinity might offer temporary relief but it is not a permanent solution. I cited an example of when such an option doesnt exist, then what would one do??

That is all I said. For the record I am not advising anyone to stay in the vicinity of the sapper so they can lose there energy. I am just stating that there must be a better means of defense that doesnt necessarily involve removing oneself from there vicinity.

Could it be you are making assumptions based on your own lack of relevant knowledge?

I have a lack of relevant knowledge I agree. All my knowledge is 2nd hand. All I am doing is relaying what I read/heard from another source. In the process of this relaying, accuracy might decrease. That is why I wrote he should only take what he needs or what he thinks makes sense to him. I am by no means an expert when it comes to these topics.


I hope this answers your questions jerry.


As a side remark. I would like to know what about my replies dont agree with you jerry to cause you to single me out?

As far as I am aware, very few people have the relevant knowledge as very few people actually have done research onto this matter themselves. What I suspect most do is, read on this subjects and add there intuition inorder to try and help brainstorm/network about possible solutions when someone needs a solution to a problem... This is what I tried to do...

Edit: Question for Jerry.

 

[Mountain Crown]

As a side remark. I would like to know what about my replies dont agree with you jerry to cause you to single me out?

They left a feel that the situation was less resolvable than it is. For example:

I did not say this. I said that a better way of protection would be to learn how the mechanics of a sapper works so as we could devise a better defense against them. Simply removing yourself from the vicinity might offer temporary relief but it is not a permanent solution. I cited an example of when such an option doesnt exist, then what would one do??

Assumes there's no defense. Yet an earlier post of mine offers one to try. See the difference?

The examples you quoted about sappers being unaware of their parasitism were not definite and two were individual cases:

[QUOTE author=shijing]her friend probably has no idea what is going on, and isn't doing it intentionally.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE author=Karagulla]He probably does not realize this himself[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE author=Endymion]Sam's 'sapping' is a kind of unconscious vampirism.[/QUOTE]

There are various images that the term vampire can conjure. Often there is no distinction to be made from "sappers" and "psychic vampires;" depending on the writer, they can be interchangeable.

Are some aware of their parasitism, and others not? I think so.

As far as I am aware, very few people have the relevant knowledge as very few people actually have done research onto this matter themselves.

Really?

 

[luke wilson]

Quote
As far as I am aware, very few people have the relevant knowledge as very few people actually have done research onto this matter themselves.

Really?

Oh yes really. Dont you agree?? How many people actually go out there and get there hands dirty finding out facts 1st hand??? Not only in the forum, but the whole world??? Most people get there information 2nd hand, from a source that claims to know what it is talking about. And then it is up to the person to either believe or disbelieve the source. They can do this by looking at different sources and seeing if the information collaborate or by looking at there own observations or by simply having a lazy mind and not questioning the source example when one is in an hypnotic state....

I thought this is one major area of how the control system functions... It is because it has developed an image of trust that so many people dont question it... Eg. Religion, Media, Government, Education etc etc. And those that question it are only allowed to question it within certain parameters that guess who came up with??? Yah, the control system. But oh, due to self-importance people think they are being all innovative/original and stuff.. You dare venture out the parameters set and you are called, a mad man or a conspiracy theorist... Infact, outside the known parameters is the big old dark unknown forest that very few dare venture into... It is best to stick close to home.

This is going abit off-topic.

The examples you quoted about sappers being unaware of their parasitism were not definite and two were individual cases:

Ok, another major example of how the control system discredits individuals e.g. whistle-blowers. Oh look, this is there personal view, it doesnt matter if what they say is true, we dont agree with it and because we are so and so, trust us.... Ok they were individual cases but this individual cases say they have had close contact with sappers and they write, from there judgement, they thought the sappers were probably unaware because of so and so reason...

With the case of the sappers, they all say probably. Ok, probably is not definate, leaves room for doubt. But, when they ALL say probably then ok, it lends a strong argument that, that might be the most likely case. I also said probably are unaware and then took the position of them being unaware as you cannot take 2 positions simultaneously in the case of making an argument, you have to take one side and then deal with it. Ok and then after, take the other side and deal with it. I took the side of them being unaware.

For the sake of objectivity and removing our own self-importance from this, we should stop jerry. Endymion shall read your arguments and make his own decisions...

As a final remark to show you that I am actually not disagreeing with you. I think you are probably right when you say. Ok but the fact that writers cannot make a distinction between the 2 doesnt mean none exists in reality.. If they were not different, then why would they have 2 different names... It is like calling 2 BMWs, 1 BMW and another 1 Porshe but they are all the same in everyway, just call them both a BMW... Makes no sense.

There are various images that the term vampire can conjure. Often there is no distinction to be made from "sappers" and "psychic vampires;" depending on the writer, they can be interchangeable.

Are some aware of their parasitism, and others not? I think so.

 

[anart]

Hi Luke, my apologies, but I'm having a lot of trouble following your logic in these latest posts. You appear to be a bit emotionally reactive and, thus, not making much sense.

Quote
As far as I am aware, very few people have the relevant knowledge as very few people actually have done research onto this matter themselves.

Really?

Oh yes really. Dont you agree?? How many people actually go out there and get there hands dirty finding out facts 1st hand???

Most people who are alive have to get their hands dirty and find things out first hand. However, geniuses can and do learn from the mistakes of others - though that is vanishingly rare.

To make a rather brief statement on the subject of this thread, however, I'd like to point out that one can only be energetically drained by a 'sapper' or 'vampire' if one allows it, on one level or another. Having control of one's reactions and energy prevents sapping or draining. Being aware of energetic dynamics and modes of attack (and draining) also provides a defense against such. It can take a LOT of practice, self-knowledge and self-control to get there, but it is possible to do.

As always, and in all things, your life is a reflection of who you are. This applies to energetically draining dynamics with others as well. It is often wise to physically distance oneself from the 'draining' dynamic, IF you cannot control the energy flow yourself - or until you learn how to control it. Ultimately, however, it's preferable to learn how to limit and stop such feeding techniques (and your reactions to them!) and that, like everything else, takes self-knowledge.

At the end of the day, you can't blame a crocodile for being a crocodile, but you can learn how to not be food. fwiw.

 

[mada85]

Hi Trevrizent. Thank you for the quotes from Barbara Hort. It's quite some time since I read Unholy Hungers.

As I was writing a reply to you yesterday evening I was overcome with the sadness and horror of the feeding dynamic with 'Sam'. I couldn't continue writing so I went to bed and wept for what seemed like ages. I'd done EE earlier in the evening and I think this triggered the outpouring of tears.

You may like to read, or more likely, re-read Chapter 5 of Unholy Hungers: Masculine Vampires and Masculine Victims. This may help, or not. The chapter is fresh in my mind as I was making notes from yesterday.

A curious coincidence! These seem to happen quite a lot around these parts :)

We need to feel the shape of other people’s energy in order to balance our own.

This is a really interesting remark from Hort that struck a chord with me. If we were, as children in our narcissistic family, to reach out and feel the shape of our narcissistic parent's energy, we would be overcome with terror, even more than we already were. It was impossible for us to do this as the experience was immensely threatening to our very life. And so, not having normal, loving people to practice on, we never managed to learn the art. Yesterday I wanted to do this very thing so as to understand the interaction better, but I was unable to

The key is to approach the vampire as Perseus does –reflectively. … By engaging in reflective exercises, we can safely bring the light of our consciousness to bear on the monster we wish to deactivate, without looking her full in the face and risking petrification.

This from Hort is spot on. 'Looking her full in the face' could be taken to mean confronting Sam and telling him what I felt and what other people have felt around him, but this would result in a kind of 'petrification' – certainly a 'petrification' of my relationship with him, not to mention that it would be totally lacking in external consideration. So reflection and networking is the way to go.

 

[luke wilson]

Hi Luke, my apologies, but I'm having a lot of trouble following your logic in these latest posts. You appear to be a bit emotionally reactive and, thus, not making much sense.

Yes I'd be lying if I said I wasnt. Maybe I am not making sense because I am having problems conveying my thoughts in a way that would be understood properly. I like your explanation anart. Concise straight to the point. That is a skill I am not blessed with.

Ok I am going to try and do exactly that. What you have done. Concise and straight to the point.

Most people who are alive have to get their hands dirty and find things out first hand. However, geniuses can and do learn from the mistakes of others - though that is vanishingly rare.

Ok, I always thought most people would agree that the majority of knowledge one has is second hand knowledge. I was wrong.

So, I have been busy searching a way trying to find relevant stuff to argue my position.

I came across this book called "Second-Hand Knowledge An Inquiry into Cognitive Authority" By Patrick Wilson.

I only have access to the review.

Reviews:
This is an immensely readable, articulate work on `social epistemology,' on how one acquires secondhand knowledge (not gained by experience but told to us) by an appeal to cognitive authorities. The author first analyzes cognitive authority as it is generated in indiviudals, its degrees and spheres, and ambiguous relation to experitse. His next concern is the knowledge industry.... His final concern is with the thorny issue of quality control in information retrieval. Of the available texts, which is the authoritative one? ... The author is a stimulating, erudite iconoclast. The book is essential reading for anyone interested in the quality of information, its illusion, elusiveness, and communication, in the so-called information society. On the basis of the plausibility and breadth of resources, it is a cognitive authority on cognitive authority. Highly recommended for academic and public libraries.

Ok so, acouple of questions. Do you not think most of what you know, the majority of what you know has been entirely spoken to you. That is you have not gained the knowledge by experience?

Ok for example, about how the body works. Cellular structure. You havent actually been to a lab and done all the research and found out all the fine details that make a cell function the way it does? Ok, you take everything in your life that you know, add them up. I think for most if not all, second-hand knowledge would outweigh first-hand knowledge. Ok by knowledge, I mean information. Data.

Ok everyone has to get there hands dirty. It is a necessity. You cannot go through life without acquiring first-hand knowledge on one level or another. My argument is, the amount of second hand knowledge one acquires far outweighs first hand knowledge. And as people base decisions on knowledge. Then I can argue that most decisions are based on second hand knowledge. And then I went into the point of what factors would make one decide what second hand knowledge to trust/believe and what not to. We are constantly bombarded with information, from all over the place. Now we need to filter this out. A criteria must be followed that will determine what will get through the filter and what wont. So a question of relevancy becomes absolutely relative because I could make an argument against any source of secondhand knowledge that one is basing there arguments on...

Ok this is what I meant by making that statement. I dont know how more concise or precise or logical I can be beyond this point.

 

[luke wilson]

Ok I have just done some more thinking and I want to conclude this.

Ok this whole thing started because jerry thought "Could it be you are making assumptions based on your own lack of relevant knowledge? " which is a direct quote.

Ok, A) I had read what everyone wrote. Saw what they thought. Even those people who claim to have interacted directly with sappers. Ok, I checked up on vampires. Ok. Done.

I make my reply based on what I read, also on what I think which is further based on a myriad of other pieces of knowledge that I have collected here and there.


So, I dont know what he meant 'by lack of relevant knowledge.'

Everybody has a lack of relevant knowledge in my opinion. Atleast to some degree... It is just a matter of people agreeing what is relevant and what isnt that determines what 'relevant' knowledge is.

The reason for the 'emotional reaction' is because such a statement makes no sense! I have a lack of relevant knowledge. Ok, so do you! So does everyone! What does such a statement look to accomplish?? I mean really... I thought the aim was to accomplish things. Reach some solid answers. Reach meaningful conclusions....

 

[anart]

Ok I have just done some more thinking and I want to conclude this.

Ok this whole thing started because jerry thought "Could it be you are making assumptions based on your own lack of relevant knowledge? " which is a direct quote.

Ok, A) I had read what everyone wrote. Saw what they thought. Even those people who claim to have interacted directly with sappers. Ok, I checked up on vampires. Ok. Done.

I make my reply based on what I read, also on what I think which is further based on a myriad of other pieces of knowledge that I have collected here and there.


So, I dont know what he meant 'by lack of relevant knowledge.'

Well, I agree that Jerry's phrasing was less than optimal. He could have made his point without insulting you, which is basically what he did, which then prompted your emotional reaction.

I thought the aim was to accomplish things. Reach some solid answers. Reach meaningful conclusions....

Yep, which is why when you use phrases like 'my argument is' and 'I argue', it's off target for this forum. We're not interested in arguments. We're interested in facts. If what you write on this forum is merely an opinion, or an argument, then it's often best to not offer it, since opinions are of very little value. There is a thread on opinions here.

 

[Menna]

This thread hits close to home. Being a recovering people pleaser I have had vampires enter my life and only recently I have recognized this and now I can sit back and count them. The problem is I need more than one hand to count how many I have encountered. Well that’s enough self pity...Anyway I believe Anart said it best

"At the end of the day, you can't blame a crocodile for being a crocodile, but you can learn how to not be food. fwiw."

I believe this to be true if you go to the edge of the lake and instigate or toy with the crocodile then you are asking for trouble.

If you are a people pleaser or if you have a hard time saying no and don't know when to stand up for yourself then you are instigating the vampires - these behaviors are similar to sticking your hand in and out of the crocodile infested waters. Sooner or later the crocodile will try to bite.

The best thing to do is ask yourself why is my life filled with vampires, why are these people attracted to me, once you can find the answer then you can't start to work towards a solution.
For protection let Self confidence be your cross, discernment be your holy water and networking be your garlic.

 

[obyvatel]

[quote author=Endymion]I do wonder if it is possible to protect oneself in that type of situation

If you find yourself in this situation again unprepared, you may tactfully try:

Crossing your arms at the level of the solar plexus (maybe with one extended to your chin as in the “thinker”)

Crossing your legs or ankles

Avoiding eye contact

Not speaking directly at him/her.

This can block access to the major centers vulnerable to the theft, and the sapper may wrap up the job related affairs and socially retreat.


[/quote]
Hi Jerry,
I am interested to understand a little about the protection mechanisms you mentioned. Can you please elaborate as to how these techniques work?
I am just stating my current understanding on some of the above points - please feel free to let me know if they are off-base.
Avoiding eye contact and and not speaking directly seem like giving out a message that one wants to disengage. Eyes are said to be windows of the soul - maybe that is why avoiding eye contact makes sense. When one is avoiding eye contact then it is a little odd to talk directly to the person.
Crossing legs/ankles - in body language terms they are usually regarded as anxious/defensive postures. How are they related to an energy center?
Crossing arms at solar plexus level - may be to protect the energy center at that location? Crossing is usually regarded as a defensive/closed position.
So in terms of body language, the above techniques seem to indicate a closed defensive posture and intention to disengage. If a person is unknowingly sapping another person's energy and is not a habitual or essential energy sapper, then these cues could make him/her back off. But I wonder if the person concerned is of a more predatory nature, whether the defensive reactions (at least in body language terms) would make him back off.
Now I digress with some personal history and observations.
A relatively recent social situation comes to mind where in a gathering a person I had not met before held sway as soon as he entered. He had a ready smile on his face, appeared to be all helpful and genuinely concerned about others - but his manner was quite condescending and he essentially talked down to others. I was not directly involved and was observing him for some time. Then while he was browbeating mostly silent listeners (me included) into submission with his use of incorrect information on some political topic, I stepped in somewhat assertively and put forward some facts on the particular situation he was discussing. He put up some arguments but soon fell totally silent when it became clear that he did not know much about the issue he was talking about. After that incident, he quickly left this present group of people and moved on to others. I continued observing him through out the evening and though he was back to his ways, the force that he had in the beginning was considerably reduced. And he avoided me like a plague :).
In my experience, I have found the above described pattern to recur many times in different contexts - personal, social and even at work. I have observed from quite a young age that most of the masculine bully types usually avoid me either right from the outset or after one or two interactions. None of them were in a real authority position though. My engagements with this type thus have been brief in duration - and many times I got involved only when I saw others getting victimized. I have always been a little puzzled (but grateful) that I was avoided by bullies while growing up as I was not very physically strong at that time. I do get drained in other types of situations but as far as the masculine bully/vampire type is concerned, I have been relatively unaffected except for one in the family whom I had to face at a very very young age. Maybe facing him provided me with a level of inoculation.
I am interested in learning other coping strategies than the sort of direct engagement I am used to.

PS: Endymion, I apologize for being somewhat off-topic in this thread that you started with these personal experiences of mine - but hope that they can be somewhat useful.

 

[Mountain Crown]

Hi obyvatel,

The defense measure I posted is an esoteric teaching which I have used at times with enough results to hold as valuable, and is based on closing the larger centers of energy that are accessible.

You most likely are aware of the correspondence of models from Taoism, Yoga, Western Anatomy, and Gurdjieff regarding major relays in the body/mind, so I'll not go into that in detail.

In the course of personal development it is said that psycho-physical energy is at various times and levels not in balance, resulting in leakages of sorts caused by a combination of imbalnced life style, physical, emotional, and mental traumas, etc. In energy work the principle aim at first is to learn to stop the leaking before attempting to increase energy, otherwise the effort will be sysiphean.

The largest centers are located in the legs, the torso, and the head: ankles/calves, gonads; intestines, solar plexus/heart; throat, eyes. The practitioner, working to develop conscious control and development of energy, values it and increasingly becomes more sensitive to others taking/using it. The defense mechanism I posted is used until balance and control is acheived.

Noting that these things operate involuntarily with their own laws (hidden from the false personality) yet conscious (psycho-biological), and has a circular flow - one could say that the defense is an initiating of conscious control through the intent of preventing the theft by enveloping the centers in a cocoon like manner.

Avoiding eye contact and and not speaking directly seem like giving out a message that one wants to disengage. Eyes are said to be windows of the soul - maybe that is why avoiding eye contact makes sense.

Precisely the intent, is it not? The person is a thief, wittingly or not. Castaneda's take that awareness is energy makes sense here. Think about how important it has always been to have others' attention.

When one is avoiding eye contact then it is a little odd to talk directly to the person.

It may seem so, but in the course of normal conversation, you might observe that speaking directly at a person is done less frequently than originally thought. Nevertheless, it's better that the discomfort is felt by him.

Crossing legs/ankles - in body language terms they are usually regarded as anxious/defensive postures. How are they related to an energy center?

It is defensive, but a common enough posture to be considerate. The legs are reputed to be storage houses of sexual energy, which also is said to be particularly palatable. Crossing the legs at either the knees or ankles is to close off the sexual center.

Crossing arms at solar plexus level - may be to protect the energy center at that location? Crossing is usually regarded as a defensive/closed position.

Precisely. Again this posture is acceptable enough as well, my addition of the thinkers pose is an excellent one in this regard.

But I wonder if the person concerned is of a more predatory nature, whether the defensive reactions (at least in body language terms) would make him back off.

If he doesn't I would say to myself: "Feets, don't fail me now!"

One could view this procedure as a strategic enclosure. It's aim isn't necessarily to make someone go away.

The person in your story about the recent social gathering may very well be a sapper, yet he could also have been merely posturing as many people do in such situations out of narcissistic compensation. When your imput made the posture untenable he may have felt it impractical to remain in that vacinity.

 

[lord jim]

this has probably been said in many different ways in this post, but i know what you're saying about a flighty person who uses a sort of manic energy which ends up exhausting you. my strategy for dealing with folks like that is essentially keeping my mind on the important topics. when he tries to throw in an inane joke or something else distracting, literally don't let your mind go there.

i'll normally bend over backwards to accommodate a person when they want to talk about this thing or that thing, even if it means doing all sorts of mental gymnastics to follow them, coming up with relevant rejoinders to smooth out the rough edges of the conversation. but when i feel like a person is take advantage of that, i'll just put up mental walls to anything outside of the topic at hand (and this goes double for people at work). if you need something from him, just do not respond to anything outside of what you've deemed "appropriate". this doesn't mean you have to be rude...you can smile at him as he goes off on his tangents, but always steer the conversation back to the topic of interest. i find that eventually people "get it"... and you can get whatever you need from the person without laying yourself open to an onslaught.

don't know if this is helpful or not, but good luck!

 

[mada85]

16 July:

I'd like share an update on my interactions with 'Sam'. I've noticed that when I try to meet Sam by trading off-the-wall jokiness, or by joining in with his bewildering changes of tack, that is when the childhood program I've previously described is aroused. So, to avoid this I've developed a couple of strategies for keeping him on track in a conversation. One is simply to state that I'm very busy so let's keep to the point. The other is to be fatherly and protective to the damaged little boy who still lives in me. This results in me being quite clear with Sam that jokiness is not tolerated, without me being harsh or rude. I do it by a mixture of tone of voice and by ignoring the jokes. It's very interesting to observe this in myself and Sam's reaction. He responds by keeping to the topic! This may even be beneficial for him.

I think one would be protected if one uprooted one's emotional programming and Predator's Mind, this changing one's FRV. Being of an STS orientation is what makes one 'edible', and the more one removes this nature, the less one will become food, I think. Eventually, one might end up outside of the 'range' that a given feeder can tune into.

I agree with this, Psalehesost, although I think it probably takes a long time get there. In the meantime strategies are required, even actual physical actions such as this suggested by Jerry:

Crossing your arms at the level of the solar plexus (maybe with one extended to your chin as in the “thinker”)

Crossing your legs or ankles

Avoiding eye contact

Not speaking directly at him/her.

This can block access to the major centers vulnerable to the theft, and the sapper may wrap up the job related affairs and socially retreat.

Thanks for the suggestion, Jerry. I will certainly try it next time I have to spend any time with Sam.

Do you think that your father was a sapper too, thus Sam reminding your of your father, or did it just seem to bring up a childhood program of wanting to be accepted?

I don't think my father was a sapper. The situation reminded me of a few instances I can remember of being out with my father and feeling like I wasn't really there as he interacted with other people. It wasn't really wanting to be accepted, either. It was wanting to have some attention for myself . . . hmmm, thinking about it, I went there with the expectation that I would get Sam's undivided attention for the duration of our meeting. Well, I did get that, but not in the way I was expecting! Thanks for the question, Dawn, it made me think more deeply about myself in relation to the events.

So, maybe if you changed your perception of him, if you do not commit so much of your being when you are interacting with him, then maybe you wont feel so drained. Like for example as you say, keep your contact time to a minimal and when you are interacting, approach it differently. Experiment and see if this changes how much you feel drained afterwards.

Well, I tried experimenting, which you can read about at the beginning of this post. They have actually helped me to feel stronger and more in control of my energy. Even as I'm writing, though, I notice other programs saying: I shouldn't behave like that towards Sam, it's not nice!

you have got no way of dealing with this type of person because he falls outside this 'spectrum' and the drainage of energy might simply be, you trying to expand your own spectrum to include him, his type, in it!

Luke, I think you're grasping at straws here. Alice and I have come to very similar conclusions about Sam. Others I have spoken to, who have not had such close contact with him, have come to broadly similar conclusions.

I say this because sam sounds like a good guy. Nuthing about him sounds malicious or negative from what you say.

Yes, Sam is what people would call a good guy, a nice guy, helpful, friendly and so on, and I'm sure he sees himself that way. There probably is nothing consciously malicious about him. And nothing negative, either, that is if you don't mind having your life energy drained.

this might be a lesson for you to learn and acting so swiftly without due consideration will result in failure of the lesson and who knows what consequences might arise from such a failure if any

Well, I think the lesson here for me is that when I feel my energy being drained, energy that I have worked hard to increase through EE and meditation, then I need to act as fast as possible to find out how I am being drained, who by, what the mechanism of it is and most importantly, what vulnerabilities are in me that allow it to happen and what I can do to stop it.

I'm guessing that 'Sam' won't suffer from him trying to practice strategic enclosure in this situation since he is Endymion's superior.

I think this is correct, Shijing. I've had a couple of phone conversations with Sam today, and even though I have been practicing strategic enclosure with him, he has been his usual joy, friendly self. BTW, he is a colleague, not my superior.

There is right and wrong and the circumstances determining which is which.

This is really important, Jerry. When one is trying to grow in consciousness and increase one's energy for Work, the last thing one needs is to spend time with sappers. Especially since like me one can develop energy and not yet clearly understand how to protect it from sappers.

17 July:

Jerry, thanks for the deeper explanation of the reasoning behind the use of defensive body postures. Although I had a reasonable understanding of this, you added a few more interesting details. Thank you.

Lord Jim, thanks for your comments.

my strategy for dealing with folks like that is essentially keeping my mind on the important topics. when he tries to throw in an inane joke or something else distracting, literally don't let your mind go there.

Actually this is a strategy I had worked out in the past couple of days, and it is very effective. I use this one for phone conversations, not having spent any time in his company for the past couple of days. I feel much more in control of my energy when I do this and can also be externally considerate of Sam.

lord jim] a flighty person who uses a sort of manic energy which ends up exhausting you

That describes Sam well. I wonder if his sapping mechanism works because without vigilance I end up trying to follow and match his manic energy and flightiness, and he then feeds off my attention.

 

[anart]

Hi obyvatel,

The defense measure I posted is an esoteric teaching which I have used at times with enough results to hold as valuable, and is based on closing the larger centers of energy that are accessible.

Hi Jerry, I'm curious about exactly what 'esoteric' teaching it is to which you are referring?

I've read your post and it seems to be focused on physiological parameters, and definitions, that might be rather limited in their effectiveness. My point is that to focus on the physical when considering energetic dynamics is to focus on the 'voice and the lights', not the man behind the curtain, as it were. fwiw.

 

[Mountain Crown]

Ok I have just done some more thinking and I want to conclude this.

Ok this whole thing started because jerry thought "Could it be you are making assumptions based on your own lack of relevant knowledge? " which is a direct quote.

Ok, A) I had read what everyone wrote. Saw what they thought. Even those people who claim to have interacted directly with sappers. Ok, I checked up on vampires. Ok. Done.

I make my reply based on what I read, also on what I think which is further based on a myriad of other pieces of knowledge that I have collected here and there.

So, I dont know what he meant 'by lack of relevant knowledge.'

Well, I agree that Jerry's phrasing was less than optimal. He could have made his point without insulting you, which is basically what he did, which then prompted your emotional reaction.

Hi luke,

I just read this now. Sometimes my wife and I read posts from each other's sign-on so the marker may take us further down the thread when clicking on the last post.

I can see that I was blind to my lack of consideration at the time, and ask that you accept my apology.