Is this Conscious Suffering / Yes and No?

[3DStudent]

Hi all, I haven't made any personal posts in a while. I've been meaning to make a swamp post with some of my recent personal struggles. But I wanted to mention something.

It's a feeling when a thought enters my mind. I'm totally a Man #3 so it is usually an intellectual thing. Some calculation, statistic, or other intellectual consideration.

At work in my free time I study for a computer test. This, and the fact that I work with computers now, always brings up thoughts about buying or configuring computers. This stems from my old video game days where I would think along the same lines. Things like, "Ooh it would be cool to build a super-fast one." And comparing all the stats of speeds, sizes, etc.

And it usually hurts, like I get a tight feeling in my stomach. I know that these are unimportant considerations, juggling numbers and things in your mind you won't even pursue.

I've recently gotten over some other of these considerations, being obsessions with music and art. I end up just thinking about them. But with the fact that my job revolves around this, I'm having trouble shaking the computers one.

I've always thought of being "free to pursue Cass things." Meaning none of these consideration hooks get in the way of my esoteric pursuits. My assumption is that this is a matter of conscious suffering, or the battle between Yes and No? I think realistic examples of these things are helpful.

Also, being a Man #3, is there a more healthy use of the intellectual center? Like something productive for someone who just juggles numbers and stats around? Just wanted to post some thoughts as I have been busy and haven't shared much in a while. Thanks for reading.

 

[Buddy]

Hi 3D Student. Apologies, but for some reason I'm not following you very well. Would you mind explaining again, what is it exactly that you are doing that hurts? What I'm getting is that you have a feeling associated with certain thoughts about certain activities that you are no longer doing and it's like a tightening in the stomach when you have these thoughts?

I'm prolly just being a bit dense, but is the above the 'suffering' you are describing? Thanks in advance. :)

 

[realitybugll]

Well, I think I know what you are saying. After i am done playing a video-game, I will beat myself up over it. Saying to myself... that this is not what I want to be doing. At the same time I accept what I have done and understand I have "wasted" many years of my life, and from this moment on I have a choice. But this mood i get into, being depressed but in a sense feeling new strength is not conscious suffering I don't think. because I go and play video games a few days later, and I know I am going against my aim but I still do it. And it repeats.

Conscious suffering almost would seem to me to be less abstract, at least that is how I think of it. like making a super-effort. We all suffer from this inner dialogue, or in my case self-critisism, but its not conscious suffering. about you case I cannot say. It's obvious you desire a positive change and you recognize this mechanical thought pattern. I actually get lost in the same delusion for a few moments that you stated but I do catch myself. years ago I use to look through the DELL magazine but I wasn't calculating. I'm prone to this computer-obsession you described maybe a little bit. Is to struggle against something conscious suffering? I suppose any conscious suffering would be a struggle against 'the predator'. I often think I have not made it to the point of conscious suffering or attempting it, though I guess I have done some small efforts at this. Because, I'm still very identified and wrapped up in my mechanical suffering i.e negative thought patterns and feelings. I think this has to be solved first? the idea of conscious suffering doesn't seem relevant for me...

Thank you for bringing this topic up, because though it may have been explained to me, I still can't say I understand conscious suffering. It makes sense to me that conscious suffering is good for the machine...but I don't have evidence or really understand what it is I don't think. I do find myself wondering many times 'is this conscious suffering'. From my understanding, I don't think so, but I entertain the thought.

 

[Buddy]

I think it is the action and consequences of going against whatever is comfortable to a person. And I don't necessarily mean "La-Z boy" comfortable. There are ways we "suffer" that we are comfortable with because it gives us a sense of "being someone, having something (a problem) and getting something out of it".

Whining, complaining, moaning, groaning, b*tching, doing things we know we shouldn't be doing and then suffering "regret" are just a few examples of unnecessary suffering we can give up. :)

Using Self-discipline in any way at all - to do the Work and/or whatever needs to be done or restraining ourselves from doing whatever we need to restrain ourselves from doing has a certain definite discomfort to it that could be called the "conscious suffering" or "intentional suffering" that is useful for the Work, OSIT.

 

[Mountain Crown]

I think it is the action and consequences of going against whatever is comfortable to a person. And I don't necessarily mean "La-Z boy" comfortable. There are ways we "suffer" that we are comfortable with because it gives us a sense of "being someone, having something (a problem) and getting something out of it".

Whining, complaining, moaning, groaning, b*tching, doing things we know we shouldn't be doing and then suffering "regret" are just a few examples of unnecessary suffering we can give up. :)

Using Self-discipline in any way at all - to do the Work and/or whatever needs to be done or restraining ourselves from doing whatever we need to restrain ourselves from doing has a certain definite discomfort to it that could be called the "conscious suffering" or "intentional suffering" that is useful for the Work, OSIT.

This is also my understanding.

Conscious (intentional) suffering and the related concept of yes/no struggle can be summed up as "liking what it doesn't like and disliking what it likes."

[quote author=Gurdjieff]Know that this house is of value only to those who have recognized their nothingness and believe it is possible to alter.
Here we can only direct and create conditions, but not help.
Remember that here work is not done for work’s sake, but as a means.
Like what it does not like.

Do not be affected by externals. In themselves they are harmless; it is we who allow ourselves to be hurt by them.

Man is a symbol of the laws of creation; in him there is evolution, involution, struggle, progress and retrogression, struggle between positive and negative, active and passive, yes and no, good and evil.

Sincerity is the key to self-knowledge and to be sincere with oneself brings great suffering.

Free will is the function of the Master within us. Our ‘will’ is the supremacy of one desire over another.

In the river of life suffering is not intentional. In conscious life suffering is intentional and of great value. [/quote]

[quote author=Cassiopaea Glossary]Gurdjieff speaks of the holy 'being partkdolg duty' in Beelzebub's Tales. This is defined as consisting of conscious labors and intentional suffering and is an impulse necessary for man's development towards objective reason and being.

This is not to be confused with mechanical suffering, which is the emotional or physical reaction to anything ordinarily painful. This 'feeds the moon,' whereas intentional suffering and conscious labors produce internal friction which is necessary for crystallizing anything of lasting value. The difference between the two types of suffering can be quite subtle and often ambiguous. . .

We could say that mechanical suffering is rooted in subjectivity and consideration for self. Intentional or conscious suffering is on the other hand rooted in internal struggle for objectivity. It is choosing the higher in the place of the lower, choosing external considering in the place of internal considering, for example. Of course before this makes sense, there must exist some sort of taste for differentiating between these.

So it comes to be that the illusion of being virtuous because one happens to feel pain must be sacrificed, whereas the internal struggle towards objectivity must be embraced. Man's natural complacency and mechanicality, not to mention the General Law, will offer all the adversary one might wish for. In Gurdjieff's words, the Creator's joy is in creation struggling towards truth. This joy cannot be without the struggle, just as there cannot be free will without the presence of alternatives.[/quote]

[quote author=3D Student]Also, being a Man #3, is there a more healthy use of the intellectual center? Like something productive for someone who just juggles numbers and stats around?[/quote]

It's my understanding that the intellect works best when gathering and ordering information apart from the other centers in service to their development. It would follow that a first step would be to objectively gather what there is to know about the functioning of the other centers for the purpose of appropriately allocating those functions. These energies are always working together; in a mechanical person this is an inharmonious mixture.

Others may see this more clearly.

 

[3DStudent]

Thanks for the replies. It's nice to again network and discuss ideas.

Bud, regarding what hurts: I just meant that I get a pit in the stomach feeling, or a subtle emotion of pain or friction when I start down a road of thought or action that I know I shouldn't be on.

wetroof, I see what you're saying about concrete examples. That is what I wanted to do too (another intellectual function of labeling :P?) As I experience it, there are two types of suffering, conscious and mechanical. Conscious suffering always "feels better", and comparatively you may not even call it suffering because it is so much better. Mechanical suffering always drags you down. It's like conscious suffering is a wound that quickly heals and mechanical suffering is one that keeps hurting. OSIT.

Jerry, regarding the intellectual center's ideal use: would that mean that it observes its own actions too?

This following quote from Laura in the Polar Beings thread kind of sparked some of my thoughts:

Ark and I knew from the very beginning that in all things there is balance in the universe. If there is great happiness in one place, in another there must be great sadness. Also, if an individual experiences great happiness, they will also, most assuredly, cycle down into abyssal despair.

We first of all did not want our happiness - which can't be described so I won't even try - the article quoted above comes very close - to be the cause of misery anywhere else. We also did not want our happiness to decay in a normal cyclic way. The only option seemed to be to make a sacrifice, to consciously suffer to balance the Cosmic Gift that had been given us.

We analyzed what we had, what we wanted, what our assets were, our natures, and so on, and came to the conclusion that we must give our lives in service to the Universe and sacrifice that one thing that still calls to us like a siren: a private, peaceful life doing just the things we like together.

Oh, what a joy it would be to have a little cottage by the sea with a library and a piano and a garden... To shut out the world, to close the door to the suffering and madness, to never have to wake up in the morning and wonder what vile and evil lie is being spread about us today simply because we are standing against the darkness.

I think it is a good idea of conscious suffering. Not doing what you would like to do, and just blazing forward. And I don't think you have to be in a relationship to do this. You can just suffer alone, and maybe get that happiness that comes with it.

 

[Buddy]

[quote author=3D Student]Also, being a Man #3, is there a more healthy use of the intellectual center? Like something productive for someone who just juggles numbers and stats around?[/quote]

How did you arrive at the man #3 designation? You saw your reflection in Mourieff's descriptions?

 

[3DStudent]

[quote author=3D Student]Also, being a Man #3, is there a more healthy use of the intellectual center? Like something productive for someone who just juggles numbers and stats around?

How did you arrive at the man #3 designation? You saw your reflection in Mourieff's descriptions?
[/quote]

I don't remember the descriptions. But isn't it #1=Moving Center, #2=Emotional Center, and #3=Intellectual Center? Fakir, Monk, Yogi. I would be floored if I weren't actually intellectual center driven. I just think too much and like many have an underdeveloped emotional center. And with my new desk job I don't get much exercise so my moving center is probably not as active.

 

[Buddy]

Mouravieff tells us that there are four conditions required to search for "The Way."

* a passionate desire to reach it;

* discernment;

* a discipline of steel;

* initiative.

So, you start with this BURNING desire...

And then you must learn discernment. This is the very FIRST task and takes us back to the problem of the necessity for purity so as to be sure that one is not creating a "black magnetic center" as described above. Mouravieff says about the problem of discernment:

...one must then apply himself to develop the faculty of discernment by every means.

Let us repeat that we live inside the Mixtus Orbis, where we find real and imaginary facts and phenomena inextricably intermixed. The difficulty in separating them is due to the fact that the Imaginary resembles the Real in the same way that the space beyond a mirror reflects what is actually present on the facing side. When surrounded by mirrors, we can easily lose all notion of what is real.

Using mathematical language, we would write the equation: I=R X sq.rt. -1 where I, the Imaginary, is equal to R, the real, multiplied by the imaginary number, the square root of minus one.

To recognize the square root of -1, wherever it exists, means acquiring discernment.

Even though the Imaginary closely resembles the Real, as in the case of the mirror there is always a difference between them, because the image is inverted with regard to the object: this applies to all sorts of products of the unreal, and puts us on the way to detecting them.

The 'A' influences among which we live are by their nature imaginary; but they can result in or produce real effects. This is what constantly happens in life. Thus the fear of some imaginary danger pushes us to take concrete precautionary measures.

At this point, Mouravieff talks about two ways to develop discernment.

-The negative method, or method of exclusion, is recommended to man 3, that is, the intellectual type;

-The positive method, or method of integration, is recommended to man 2, the emotional type.

[One question that might be asked is: how can you tell the difference between someone who has the center of gravity in the intellect, or one who has the center of gravity in the emotional?

[...]

 

[andi]

...good quotes Bud, I think me is no2 but not sure, I think me might be no3 as well.

[One question that might be asked is: how can you tell the difference between someone who has the center of gravity in the intellect, or one who has the center of gravity in the emotional?

Good question! I'm an idiot regarding this.

 

[Buddy]

...good quotes Bud, I think me is no2 but not sure, I think me might be no3 as well.

[One question that might be asked is: how can you tell the difference between someone who has the center of gravity in the intellect, or one who has the center of gravity in the emotional?

Good question! I'm an idiot regarding this.

Did you go read the rest of the post? It might help. :)

 

[andi]

No.
Ahh... I just found out how to do it (read the whole post) -by clicking on the quoted title/link. Jezze, it never occured to me that you can click that and see the whole thing - I thought it was just a bold title .

Tkx Bud! I'll read.


edited.

 

[andi]

[quote author=Bud]
Did you go read the rest of the post? It might help. :)
[/quote]

It might help haa?! :) I'm in shock really. Thank you lots! I've been searching for this for a week now.


Okai, sorry 3Dstudent. I'm tacking no more of your space. ;)

 

[Mountain Crown]

[quote author=3D Student]Jerry, regarding the intellectual center's ideal use: would that mean that it observes its own actions too?[/quote]

I must defer to someone more equipped to answer this one accurately. It seems to me however, that observation involves a subject/object distinction and the intellect (object) would then rigorously analyze the result. At the moment I'm unsure if this proposition is valid.

 

[3DStudent]

At this point, Mouravieff talks about two ways to develop discernment.

-The negative method, or method of exclusion, is recommended to man 3, that is, the intellectual type;

-The positive method, or method of integration, is recommended to man 2, the emotional type.

[One question that might be asked is: how can you tell the difference between someone who has the center of gravity in the intellect, or one who has the center of gravity in the emotional?

[...]

I guess take a personality test? :P But seriously, I think it's just a matter of, "Are you a feeler or a thinker?" For me, the exclusion method seems to work well, throwing out all distractions. I'm not really sure how the integration method works. It seems you would have to have that discernment on what to integrate.

Okai, sorry 3Dstudent. I'm tacking no more of your space. ;)

No worries, you learned something!