Is "training" my dog a STS effort?

SadEyes

SadEyes

Padawan Learner
Before becoming a member of this forum, I began to seriously contemplate the usefulness of continuing to train my 2 year old dog. I had noticed that on the leash, she liked to walk ahead of me and tug the leash a lot (something I'm sure is quite natural given a sentient being is attached to a rope and then allowed to walk freely outdoors). After a summer of practice, I began to walk her less and less as the cold Canadian winter set in. On a warmer day, I took her outside and was amazed at how much "progress" had been undone. I got to thinking that night, what was the reason for me wanting her to be leash trained. I have been around dogs my whole life, but never personally owned one until fate brought me and Krissey together, but I have always known that one of the hallmarks of a well trained dog is their ability to walk right next to or behind their owner. Given that, I am now wondering why that should even matter. I am also wondering why I should even bother doing things like making her sit, or lie down, or jump for a treat? She is a wonderful dog that I communicate with non-verbally all the time, so what purpose does it serve anyone to have her sit just because I or someone else says sit? If I am correct, the STS route is a means of control; controlling others for my own gain, so would the simple act of making my dog sit down just for her treat be a STS act?
 
I feel I also have to add that she is completely submissive, and follows me around more than my shadow. So at this point, training her wouldn't even serve to show her who is in command or who is the alpha of the group; that much is already established. Thanks again for any responses or lashings :lol:
 
Just my take, but I'd say that it would depend upon the motivation behind it. If you're training her in order to keep her safe or to help her learn behaviors in general that not only make life easier for her but others as well (such as not jumping on people or maybe begging at the table or learning to heel when outside so as to not run off into dangerous situations or cause danger to others, then perhaps it's not so much an attempt at control but rather doing what's best for all. For what it's worth - others may feel otherwise. :)
 
Well canines naturally follow the alpha male or pack leader, if your dog views you in that way that naturally it will look to you for what the group should do.

I think as long as the dog is happy and you aren't using the dog to fix your own issues, you should be ok.

Cesar Milan from the Dog Whisperer seems to have a pretty good understanding of dog psychology but who knows.
 
I feel some dogs need more training than others. Some dogs only need minimal training. They get it and seem to want to please their human friends. I feel by not training your dog or by not being consistent with the training, the dog can just run a muck and take over by forming bad habits, and then no one is happy.

SadEyes. It sounds like you have a special dog. You have that special connection. I have had dogs that I swear they knew what I was thinking. I once had a dog (German Shepherd and Standard Poodle Mix. She looked more German Shepherd) that I could take for a walk without a leash. She would stay right by my side while walking and stop if I stopped. She had no formal training but she was so smart and wanted to please me. And she liked doing tricks and showing off to get a treat. I feel that the treats are fine in moderation. That`s my 2 cents.

For me it`s hard to know if STS or STO takes place if you are training an animal that you want to be part of you family.
 
I agree that training a dog is important for her security. Specially if you live in a city. And dogs need to know who is the leader. And I think, for what I have read, that they like when you give them objectives. I don't mean "orders" but things to do, that is a sort of training. It reminds me always what a teacher of young people told me: "young people ask for discipline, the problem is that we don't understand this word." Dogs are like young people, they are happy when you ask them to follow you, or do that or that. And then you can play with them, be crazy with them, laugh and be free like a bird. But when training them that is like educate them, I think it is important. There are many games you can do with a dog to educate him, in fact training him can be stressful but also like a sort of game between the dog and you. It can be fun!

But every dog is a world. :)
 
I didn't have to train my dog to stay near me outside because she's a rescue and stays close by my side. If she does stray a little, I notice that she picks up her head and looks around for me every couple of seconds. I, for my part, never take my eyes off of her. Once I couldn't find her and was frantically calling her name when I looked down to find sitting quietly at my feet looking calmly up at me with a "What's wrong with you mom?" expression on her face. I wasn't able to find her because I hadn't expected her to be so close.

At home, she's totally different. If I call her, she may or may not come. If I play "Squeak" with her, ("The Squeak"is doggie toy that makes little squeaky sounds and has a presence of its own), she'll grab it, shake it furiously, make ferocious growling sounds,advance a few steps, stop to growl, shake The Squeak , look up at me, growl, shake The Squeak and so on until she she's about a foot or so away from my ankles at which point she shakes it again before she finally hurls it at my ankles with all her might.

I think we've worked things out in such a way that she can express her passive aggressive emotions, (If that's what they are), while at the same time carrying out the task of retrieving the Squeak for me.

She always gets a treat after she gives it to me before we begin another round.
And, at home , if I want her to come to me, I use The Squeak because she often won't respond to my voice in the house, but she'll always come to the sound of The Squeak.

In this way, we've worked everything out.

I don't Caesar Milan would approve, but it works for us.
 
When animals are domesticated through controlled breeding over many generations, they loose many of their abilities
to survive in the wild, and are essentially forced to conform to and live within the bounds of human society.

Companion animals like dogs and cats, and other animals that experience a lot of human interaction during their lives like
horses, are especially expected to adapt to and behave in non-threatening and helpful modes of behavior that, rightly or
wrongly on a moral level, conform to human standards of acceptable behavior.

Animals who fail to behave in ways acceptable to humans are usually condemned to lives of misery and destruction.
Animal shelters are filled with dogs and slaughter-houses receive many healthy horses whose only fault is that they were
never properly socialized and trained to interact safely and usefully with humans.

This horrific suffering is the fault of the ignorance and/or unwillingness of humans to take the responsibility to make sure they learn how to teach their animals to behave well enough to survive in society. This means seeking instruction for yourself and your animals if you do not already know how to train them. There are many kindness based, Caesar Milan being one of them,
methods to train dogs with similar positive results.

All animal owners have a moral obligation to ensure the safety and well-being of their domesticated animals by making sure
they are properly socialized and trained. Seek help if you need it to obtain positive results, for as my dark-humored and cynical father used to say "you can't teach a dog unless you know more than the dog."

Good luck SadEyes and take care,
shellycheval
 
Very well put, Shelley! I would add that instead of looking at it in STS/STO terms to look at it in terms of External vs. Internal Consideration. Like Shelly said, it's definitely externally considerate both for the animal and for the humans around it to train it properly. Making life easier for everyone.
 
Thank you all for your comments, I think I understand what you are getting at. Laura, to answer your question, no I don't believe training kids is a STS act. My question was more or less, is the "training" necessary for her given the situation. I will give you an example. My wife had a bag of almonds, and Krissey loves almonds. She sat at my wife's feet, waiting for one. My wife then had her do four tricks before she gave her a treat. I then noticed that I had done the same thing many times. I asked myself, what purpose does this serve? Going back to the kids references, I can say that I have never in my life made a kid sit down, lay down, shake my hand, stay in place while I walked away, jump up in the air or bark (yell) for food. My thought was, since I wouldn't do that to a kid, and Krissey knows how to do all of those things on her own, the simple act of me commanding her to do something for food was a STS act. I do understand the importance of certain things for their safety, but one part of my evolution has been putting myself in other's shoes, and asking myself how I would feel if that was me in any given situation.

I got into an argument with my best friend a while back when he came to visit because he slapped by dog's butt when she wouldn't listen to him (we used to live together in NC, and he took care of her when I was away). I realized at that exact moment that she didn't need to listen to him for anything, and when he said "She's just a dog", I immediately reading about slavery in America, when things were done to slaves because people looked at them as being less than human. It wasn't anything to lash or starve a slave because it was just a slave. In his mind, it wasn't anything to hit her because she was "just a dog", and dogs need to obey when commanded. I just no longer feel the need to control the one being that has showed me more love and compassion than any individual in this lifetime. Look out for, provide for and protect, absolutely. Hope that makes sense.
 
SadEyes said:
I got into an argument with my best friend a while back when he came to visit because he slapped by dog's butt when she wouldn't listen to him (we used to live together in NC, and he took care of her when I was away). I realized at that exact moment that she didn't need to listen to him for anything, and when he said "She's just a dog", I immediately reading about slavery in America, when things were done to slaves because people looked at them as being less than human. It wasn't anything to lash or starve a slave because it was just a slave. In his mind, it wasn't anything to hit her because she was "just a dog", and dogs need to obey when commanded. I just no longer feel the need to control the one being that has showed me more love and compassion than any individual in this lifetime. Look out for, provide for and protect, absolutely. Hope that makes sense.
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I think it says a LOT when a person hits a dog, especially another person's dog, but any dog in general. If a friend of mine were to ever hit my dog and say "it's just a dog", they would no longer be a friend of mine. But, I figure that few things illustrate a person's state of being as well as how they treat beings (whether they are animals or humans) who are less powerful than they are.
 
SadEyes said:
Thank you all for your comments, I think I understand what you are getting at. Laura, to answer your question, no I don't believe training kids is a STS act. My question was more or less, is the "training" necessary for her given the situation. I will give you an example. My wife had a bag of almonds, and Krissey loves almonds. She sat at my wife's feet, waiting for one. My wife then had her do four tricks before she gave her a treat. I then noticed that I had done the same thing many times. I asked myself, what purpose does this serve? Going back to the kids references, I can say that I have never in my life made a kid sit down, lay down, shake my hand, stay in place while I walked away, jump up in the air or bark (yell) for food. My thought was, since I wouldn't do that to a kid, and Krissey knows how to do all of those things on her own, the simple act of me commanding her to do something for food was a STS act. I do understand the importance of certain things for their safety, but one part of my evolution has been putting myself in other's shoes, and asking myself how I would feel if that was me in any given situation.
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I think what Laura might have been hinting at was kind of along lines of "Is any kind of training an STS act?". The answer to that would be, like with anything else really, is that depends on the context, in this case, what you want to train your dog (or child) to do, and equally, if not more, importantly, why. Finding those answers (although not just that, I think) will in many cases make it quite clear whether something is an act of STS or STO, with the caveat that you haven't lied to yourself in the process or based your reasoning a lie you already unconsciously believe to be true. I agree with you on your example, I also think it STS for your wife to do that as it really serves no purpose Krissey's well-being or safety. Usually one's reason for doing that, sadistic minds aside, is simply because it's cute which I think almost all pet owners have been guilty of at some point.
 
I think doggie interaction with humans might be part of their evolutionary 'mission'. If that's true, any and all interaction with humans is potentially useful for a dog in that sense, although ideally it would always be positive in terms of the dogs evolution. Sadly, it's not always positive, then again, our interaction with each other (and any other species humans may 'interact' with) is not always positive, but it all ultimately serves the learning process. Basically, I don't see a problem with 'training' dogs, as long as you do it with love and kindness and it doesn't stress out or otherwise negatively impact the dog. Being scolded or told "no" by a human for example is not, IMO, a negative experience for a dog.
 
I do not train my dogs to do tricks for my amusement. I train them to behave in a doggie civilized way. They are there to be companions in life and protection, not clowns. However, let me note that many dogs LIKE to learn to do things that are kinda fun for them, too. If you have ever watched Shelties and Collies in agility trials, you'll know what I mean. My Cherie LOVES to play ball. She'll wear me out. And she loves to compete to make sure the other dogs can't outrun or outjump her. But she came to this on her own. We have two sheltie girls who really should have been put in some agility training because they do it naturally and I think they would like the attention, but none of us are interested in (or have time for) shows, so we just encourage them to run themselves while we watch and shout encouragement.

Just keep in mind that most dogs are much like 3 or 4 year old children emotionally and even intellectually.
 
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