Is your will an expression of joy or an expression of need?

[weasel3d]

I was walking the other day, when this thought came to me.

"Is your will an expression of joy or an expression of need?"

It seems like an important meditation that would be helpful to all of us.

Does our quest to develop our will resonate with joy, or neediness? Do we operate out of self centered desires to have things as we'd like, for ourselves and our comfort, or focus and work to appreciate the joy of our challenge and learn by them?

Upon consideration, I found it to be an epiphany.

Any thoughts?

 

[lainey]

Hi Ghostdoghaiku, I don't know if it's as black and white as what you are describing. Perhaps it's neither or perhaps it's both? Perhaps some people "need" to experience the high of the joy to feel alive and therefore the want of joy is as self centred as the next reason. Perhaps our quest for the development of will resonates with "being ok" ie. in a state of well being from which we can better serve others.
The work doesn't have to be aligned with joy for it to be positive or successful, in fact I believe more the opposite in some cases.
A fantastic book which was recommended to me by Redfox is called Inviting a Monkey to Tea: Befriending Your Mind and Discovering Lasting Contentment by Nancy Colier which I am reading at the moment which investigates this idea further.
Also you may find a couple of the most recent SOTT Talk Radio shows interesting, they talk about a book called Personality-Shaping Through Positive Disintegration by Dr. Kazimierz Dabrowski which is relevant to the idea that our quest for will is sometimes driven by the negative feelings we experience and our desire to become better people because of the pain/negativity we have caused/experienced.
So I wouldn't say that there is much comfort involved in the process. If we were really driven by a need for comfort we wouldn't bother going through such an uncomfortable metamorphosis. It is highly unlikely that in this lifetime we will complete or reach anywhere near completion of a fully developed will.

Do we operate out of self centered desires to have things as we'd like

How do we know now that if we were to reach that completeness of will that that said "completeness" would be/feel anything like we imagine the state to be/feel like in our present state? I don't know if that makes any sense at all. I guess I'm saying how do we know what we want things to be like now would be anything like what we would want things to be like should we have developed that will?

To me it seems illogical to try to develop will for a selfish motive because somewhere along the line that selfishness would surely be transformed by the exercises of will? But I suppose that depends on which types of exercises you are performing. Perhaps I'm failing to see an important point here. It will be interesting to see what others think.

 

[Chu]

Hmm, I'm not sure I understand your questions, but I'm not a native English speaker, so maybe that's why. Do you mean "will" as in will power, or as in free will, or...? I read your post twice, and I interpreted in different ways each time. Apologies if this is obvious to others!

 

[riclapaz]

If, for my is also a bit confusing, if it refers to the will, in the fourth road, at work, and following the approach of lainey, I think it will be a combination of joy and need, on the one hand, still the will, a constant in controlling the machine exercise, emotions, intellect, get rid of as many lies, this can only be possible because the soul of the person is ready for the job, ie have the need to work for development of being, and found the master (fusion of the magnetic center) and develop this will, in most cases it is quite painful.

Moreover, throughout this work, I think one can also find situations of joy, over time it can make better decisions, relationships with family and friends will benefit, life will look with new eyes when you hear a song, when you take your dog for a walk, which previously had sufficient importance, now beginning to be aware that this world is not rosy, but it is a world full of beautiful moments, new adventures, feel the breeze in the morning, holer a rose from her garden, walking on the sand, feeling the waves, right now, in some cases, can only be temporary, but I think it is necessary for our development, it is as if you begin to see that everything is like a game, and you already know how to play and knows the rules of the game, Cs mentioned something, I think are spot on, !Enjoy the ride.! ;)

 

[Meg]

I am not sure I understand either what you mean by will. Capacity or capability type will? Free will? Self will? Will as in a judgement? Willingness to carry out something? Many interpretations :)

 

[David]

Yes it’s a tad confusing, hope this doesn’t confuse things further.

Can Joy replace will, where a man is placed in a hole in the ground, and he is overjoyed at the possibility of escape, digging his way out with such joy... or would that be a happy brain, and the guy should just sit there, until joy is spent, and will is required, and joy re-established upon getting out alive.

I had a point there somewhere... yes - ‘will’ might just be something in ones being, that one can draw from, and with a bit of exercise expand that potential, or call it exercising the soul, where as joy creates energy... like a coil passing through a field, creates potential for more work, as long as its not wasted, like the parable of the foolish virgins. LOL

Not sure if that makes sense, if not no worries, just my thoughts. (cringe)

 

[Menna]

"Is your will an expression of joy or an expression of need?"

Why limit it to two words what if will is not joy or need or a its a combination of both.

IMO will and free will are both developed and recognized if joy or need fit in then ok but what I do notice is that at point I will use my will out of need and then experience joy for accomplishing this I rarely pre meditate my free will expression it is more recognized in the moment and then acted on.

 

[RedFox]

As you've posted in The Work section I presume you mean 'will power in reference to the Work'?
If so, will power is a tool for achieving our Work aims.

It may include joy, need, pain etc and a whole host of emotional/physical drives. In the context of the Work they are irrelevant as its about working towards an aim.

Say your aim goes against an addiction, exercising Will requires discipline and you will experience conscious suffering (and a range of 'negative' emotions/thoughts).
You may later experience joy on overcoming the addiction.

Say your aim includes things you find enjoyable, exercising Will would be easier and you may experience joy in anticipation (before exercising Will) and during exercising Will.

At a mechanical level our drives (and I would not call it Will) come from both 'pleasure seeking' and 'need', as well as 'pain avoidance' and whole host of other things.

Is this what you mean by "Is your will an expression of joy or an expression of need?"

 

[weasel3d]

As you've posted in The Work section I presume you mean 'will power in reference to the Work'?
If so, will power is a tool for achieving our Work aims.

It may include joy, need, pain etc and a whole host of emotional/physical drives. In the context of the Work they are irrelevant as its about working towards an aim.

Say your aim goes against an addiction, exercising Will requires discipline and you will experience conscious suffering (and a range of 'negative' emotions/thoughts).
You may later experience joy on overcoming the addiction.

Say your aim includes things you find enjoyable, exercising Will would be easier and you may experience joy in anticipation (before exercising Will) and during exercising Will.

At a mechanical level our drives (and I would not call it Will) come from both 'pleasure seeking' and 'need', as well as 'pain avoidance' and whole host of other things.

Is this what you mean by "Is your will an expression of joy or an expression of need?"

I guess my post wasn't clear. I posted the thought in a bit of haste. Things were a bit busy at the time, but I thought is may be a good thought to bounce around with the forum.

By will, I meant application of 'free will'. But in rereading my post, I think I was speaking of intent and process, of the work. So, perhaps a there's a clearer way to state what I was thinking. Perhaps this is better:

Is our perception of the process, our intent, our actions, our expression projected upon the world, one of need to self-centeredly obtain something---or the joy of the unending creative process?​

But, I guess I'm assuming that a creative process is outgoing in favor of all---as in 'STO'. I just realized, it doesn't have to be, does it? I could just as easily be a 'wishful thinking'. Though, I'm pretty certain that my personal intent is that I work on things for the purpose of sharing, and resonating positively for all.

I find, that I'm quite joyed by the entire challenge. I'm a musician and I'm very aware of the fact that I'll never be a master of music. That's because, the process of learning has no end. If anything, aside from adding knowledge to my base, the thing that actually gets better over time is more fundamentally the ability to get out of my own way, learn to channel the muse and let the universe express itself. That works via my intent and action of picking up a saxophone, in spite of the pains (mental, physical and emotional) playing and of learning. For years, I felt that I 'needed' to be better than I was. And in fact, I meet musicians all the time, who complain about the pain of not feeling they're good enough at present and deny the beauty of their true expression, the love and joy of the undertaking---the endless process. Their need gets in the way of experiencing the joy of process. And I think that the joy of process enables you to get out of the way, not egotistically own anything and opens the doors of expression.

In the same way, there are times that I personally get obsessive (though less these days than the past), to reach a point of consciousness that would be what I'd consider emotionally and psychically stable...a mastering. But of course, that's not the nature of things. It's the same as music...an unending and infinite process. And in the moments that I'm consciously aware of that, I feel a joy to all aspects of the process. That includes the successes and the impediments. When in that headspace, I feel my expression is more flowing, intuitive, far reaching, resonating with the rest of the world and useful. My expression seems to be more expressive of the world, thinking of others, being more in tune with the expression of the world.

So, the neediness to get somewhere, as opposed to the joy of process, is probably more to the point of what I was thinking when I posted earlier.

 

[BHelmet]

Perhaps this is better:

Is our perception of the process, our intent, our actions, our expression projected upon the world, one of need to self-centeredly obtain something---or the joy of the unending creative process?​

But, I guess I'm assuming that a creative process is outgoing in favor of all---as in 'STO'. I just realized, it doesn't have to be, does it? I could just as easily be a 'wishful thinking'. Though, I'm pretty certain that my personal intent is that I work on things for the purpose of sharing, and resonating positively for all.

I find, that I'm quite joyed by the entire challenge. I'm a musician and I'm very aware of the fact that I'll never be a master of music. That's because, the process of learning has no end. If anything, aside from adding knowledge to my base, the thing that actually gets better over time is more fundamentally the ability to get out of my own way, learn to channel the muse and let the universe express itself. That works via my intent and action of picking up a saxophone, in spite of the pains (mental, physical and emotional) playing and of learning. For years, I felt that I 'needed' to be better than I was. And in fact, I meet musicians all the time, who complain about the pain of not feeling they're good enough at present and deny the beauty of their true expression, the love and joy of the undertaking---the endless process. Their need gets in the way of experiencing the joy of process. And I think that the joy of process enables you to get out of the way, not egotistically own anything and opens the doors of expression.
....
So, the neediness to get somewhere, as opposed to the joy of process, is probably more to the point of what I was thinking when I posted earlier.

Nice. why limit it to an either/or? Maybe:

What is it that is the driving motivation of my intent, actions, and expression projected upon the world or in the external world?

Or maybe: why do I do what I do, when I am able to act out of a cause I create?

Hmm, en fraincaise? Que est-qe c'est mon raison d'etre?

merging philosophy and doing

 

[Laura]

I was walking the other day, when this thought came to me.

"Is your will an expression of joy or an expression of need?"

It seems like an important meditation that would be helpful to all of us.

Does our quest to develop our will resonate with joy, or neediness? Do we operate out of self centered desires to have things as we'd like, for ourselves and our comfort, or focus and work to appreciate the joy of our challenge and learn by them?

Upon consideration, I found it to be an epiphany.

Any thoughts?

Sometimes, people have random thoughts that are little more than nonsense. I don't suppose you were smoking anything, were you?

 

[weasel3d]

I was walking the other day, when this thought came to me.

"Is your will an expression of joy or an expression of need?"

It seems like an important meditation that would be helpful to all of us.

Does our quest to develop our will resonate with joy, or neediness? Do we operate out of self centered desires to have things as we'd like, for ourselves and our comfort, or focus and work to appreciate the joy of our challenge and learn by them?

Upon consideration, I found it to be an epiphany.

Any thoughts?

Sometimes, people have random thoughts that are little more than nonsense. I don't suppose you were smoking anything, were you?

Ha! No, probably just a result of breathing NYC air.