L
Lucy
Guest
First, for those who haven't seen my post over at
Channel Watch & New Age COINTELPRO
Channel Watch & New Age COINTELPRO
I think it is. The Yah material has a strange energy around it that usues the same tactics as cults use to get under your skin. It's not just a "message", but in my view literally something that tries to bore into you and if you have experience with that sort of thing the energy can activate old program residues and scars.Lucy said:Seems to me it's connected to this post I also made today --
http://signs-of-the-times.org/signs/for ... 6648#p6648
Lucy said:Seems to me it's connected to this post I also made today --
http://signs-of-the-times.org/signs/for6648#p6648
"Activate old programs and scars," resonates with me in many ways, for instance: I went back and re-read my post and noticed what I'd wriitten as 'background' to explain why a Jehovah's Witness dream would be personal to me and realized I'd included my father being a congregational overseer, and a speaker very much in demand, which wasn't relevent background information for my purpose. Perhaps I did this to show that I admired him; that I had a good opinion of him; that, even though he was a Witness, he wasn't the idiot my mother worked so hard to label him...or a 'bad' person. I see him as sincere, but misguided.EsoQuest said:I think it is. The Yah material has a strange energy around it that usues the same tactics as cults use to get under your skin. It's not just a "message", but in my view literally something that tries to bore into you and if you have experience with that sort of thing the energy can activate old program residues and scars.
Your dream is quite complex and seems to contain many personal elements, particular to you in that the vibration is more an undertone, as if all the pieces are meant to acquire meaning through the formation of a whole.
Although I didn't include it in my analysis, when I read the JAH intro page I realized he was targeting an 'international audience' (victims on a world-wde scale), which, I think, also relates to the thought forms you mention later.EsoQuest said:Two things make an immediate impression: Tokyo and a brightly lit building in the dark.
Yes, the girl seemed foreign, 'with a dark visage', and also rather solid and stocky, large/heavy, with noticably large breasts...not in a sexy movie star way, but in a more matronly way...seemingly inappropriate to her being that young. Perhaps representing dark and powerful female energy. This could represent my son's girlfriend, as well as something 'other' to me.EsoQuest said:The girl later on in the dream is also foreign, and the kilt also strikes me as exotic unless related to your heritage somehow. There seems to be an International flavor to the dream, or at least a "foreign" one, as in something other than strictly personal. Perhaps this resonates with the influence the Jah material had.
Perhaps I regret that he's an adult now, no longer a child I can protect? Do I view him differently than he views himself? Oh yes!EsoQuest said:The kilt, ball cap and skateboard on your son are probably personal symbols having to do with his being you "child". Perhaps you view him differently than he views himself, but again only you can know this.
Well, it was like a musical 'break'...transitional in nature...as I turned away from the building and went down the steps into the rainy parking lot.EsoQuest said:It may just be that the first part with the building is a different theme continued by the JW theme.
Do you mean "getting up in the world" in a materialistic sense? My contribution as a mentor to my children's ability to do so?EsoQuest said:The whole thing seems to tie together with the idea of getting up in the world, especially related to you mentorship and how your experience can contribute. The rain and being locked out of your car, on the other hand, might point to "theme change" in the dream (change in the weather and not being able to access your vehicle of moving through the dream realm). It seems you are "caught" in this vibration now becoming prominent in the dream that has ridden the previous one.
Ah...the mentorship theme has been mentioned a lot lately in my astrology...that I have, and often effectively use, an inate ability to be an effective mentor. In real life I have done a lot of 'mentoring'...as in interacting with younger siblings, raising children, teaching both adults and children, tutoring remedial readers, Girl Scout leader, and homeschooling.EsoQuest said:It seems you recognize that it is not your vibration, and not really your issue, although it seems to be part of your experience (tied to the mentorship theme) since you enter another vehicle, where those who are relatively inexperienced but well-meaning sit.
Perhaps that 'gap' isn't only generational (which I think it is) but also experiential, and also 'me' having an idea I'm a little further along on the 'staircase' than some of those around me that I am concerned about. It's true some of those people are of a younger generation...but not all of them.EsoQuest said:The theme of "generation gap" also seems to pop up, both with your son and the others entering the building, and also with the two people in the car regarding the KH dance.
I agree. And that it was both a warning and a reminder that all is not as it may seem. At first glance the boys in the car, and the wine, all looked harmless. I 'recognized' that the boys were programmed...not essentially bad, evil, or out to intentionally hurt me or anyone else, but the wine was something else entirely, and indicative of the 'rotten fruts' produced by sincere but deluded people who have accepted and are helping to spread, lies. This would describe those who fall for JAH. And also, of course, my JW father, my son (his personal relationship with a psychopath), and my relationship with my mother, how I trusted, and even emulated her in some many ways, until I came to terms with her true nature. So the significance for me would be on several levels.EsoQuest said:And at first it seems things have changed for the better, but the wine of their fruits (which appears normal at first, but then becomes unpalatable) reveals otherwise.
It reminds me of Jah quoting the bible saying something about the truth (or his truth) being sweet in the mouth but bitter in to stomach. So this may actually represent your own take that this wine only looks good at first glance and then becomes so "thick" it is impossible to swallow.
True. She certainly didn't seem to care that I knew about the wine...she could plainly see I knew...and as it 'plopped' out on the asphalt I think I uttered a "What the hell?" kind of comment, although softly, as if to myself. She was adamant about me getting out of the car and away from the boys. I didn't belong there...and it was her 'job' to remove me. As it is my son's girlfriend's 'job' to get me out of his life...she knows I know what she really is.EsoQuest said:The episode with the girl, her exotic looks and foreign nature may reflect upon you as being the outsider here, interacting with the young men and probably just about to give your opinion regarding their "wine". It is probably this that she intervened to stop.
Why do you think my son would not also be representative? I'm not understanding that, although I'm not disputing it...I don't know enough to dipute it. :)EsoQuest said:The dream could have easily been your own simulation, but it could have been a kind of astral experience involving encoutering thoughtforms of groups of young people encountering such ideas. Each person in the dream (aside from your son) could have represented many people with the same "attitude".
It grossed me out too, and I was gazing at it as if to see what it would 'do' next...but I didn't get the 'Blob' aliveness thing from it so much as I simply felt disgust at it's nastiness, and amazement at what the wine had become...and so quickly...and wondering if it would continue to 'change' if I watched it. I was momentarily caught up in trying to 'fathom' all of this. But, I was certainly careful not to step in or on the mess...I didn't want direct contact with it, or to have it on my shoes. Much as I chose not to fully step into the JAH material...willing to look on it from some distance, but didn't want to get it on me.EsoQuest said:I'll tell you, (my bias of course here) but when I read about the wine "plopping" it grossed me out because I thought of the "Blob" monster, and could easily imagine the concoction crawling away. You know, like it's a live parasite that you are swallowing or something.
Could the 'girl' also represent a real person who is aware I know what and who she is? She may even be worried that I will somehow manage to communicate this to one of her victims...my son...and as she very plainly told me: "He is MINE!" And the look on her face was 'creepy and scary' when she said it. Some hours before I had challenged her, looked into her empty eyes, and although I didn't implicitly say so, must have let her know I knew what she is...what I was recognizing. She calmly looked back at me, with her hand on my son's shoulder, and didn't say anything at all...just keeping eye contact with me until someone else in the room spoke to her, causing a distraction. In retrospect I realize she understood her 'game' better than I did. Although she does not physically look like the the girl in my dream, the darkness, foreign-ness (of her nature to mine), verbal forcefulness, and powerfulness (in a feminine/sexual way as well as 'otherwise') describes her very well. And in the dream I encountered 'the girl' while in a somewhat muddled state, being momentarily preoccupied/distracted with the wine, it was just enough to provide her with an opportunity to get me out of the car before I could warn the boys. This is similar to something that happened in real life. Am I processing 'the past', forseeing the 'future' or gaining an acceptance of the 'present'?EsoQuest said:In any case, your presence seems to threaten the status quo because of your perceptions regarding the wine. The girl can probably represent a group of people encouraging or even seducing the more innocent "boys" to swallow what their ideas, or even fanatics of the system given the charge of encouraging the rest.
The thing is cultish thoughtforms have a life of their own and tend to feed on groups that they may categorize according to palatability and taste (in their terms), and you may have picked up on that. And the girl does not want you to figure out WHAT is wrong with the wine (the distillation of the fruits of the cultish pattern, and what is "poured" down people's throats).
In both directions? As in both personally as well as astrally and/or collectively? Would it be an application of my personal experiences/realizations to other elements that 'match'? I've been reading "Unholy Hungers" and thinking a lot about the interactive feeding process between vampires and victims, seeing that the victim opens the feeding tube (so to speak) be attempting to 'get something' from the vamp. Reminds me of the old "it takes two to tango" saying.EsoQuest said:All in all I think your dream has personal and collective elements in it. Your role as experienced guide and possible advisor extended it seems in both directions. The rain may even indicated distress (either in you or in those others having deep misgivings of digesting thoughtforms such as what the Jah material was radiating).
Yes, I have some feelings of regret in this area...that perhaps I could (but failed to) have 'done more' for some loved ones, especially my children, when I had the chance...that I may have let them down. This is a situation I am conflicted about. And I currently sometimes find it frustrating not to be able to warn people of some things they are apparently unaware of. But for the most part people don't want to hear...and so won't. Just as those boys in the car probably wouldn't have taken my warning seriously. They were so deep into the mind control programming that a simple warning wouldn't have gotten through it. And I'm thinking that any 'damage' I could have done to their programming would have been 'fixed' by the girl.EsoQuest said:It seems you felt something wrong, and encountered a theme of resistance in conveying your experience to others of lesser experience. Too bad you couldn't warn the two young men, because they may represent your perception of people about to swallow something best not swallowed.
......what I 'wanted' to end my dream post with was begging: "Please please comment on this dream...I think it's significant for me and I would like to discuss it!" But I chose the more open "Any comments?" so as not to 'demand'. But, perhaps I was still being demanding? This is something I find myself considering a lot lately...and wondering why it's so hard for me to come to clear conclusions about my true intentions.EsoQuest said:Anyway, you asked for comments and that's what I have to offer.
Mother/son relationships can be complicated. Personally, my mother disapproved of EVERY girl I liked, and any girl that met with her approval did not meet with mine. My mother is not the possessive type as far as her children are concerned, but she has particular ideas of what is and is not right for them especially regarding who their friends and intimates should be, and those ideas are not compatible with who her children are.Lucy said:Oh dear, am I jealous of her influence over him? I don't 'think' so...but the wording of the above paragraph gives me pause.
It appears to me that you view your son as being "seduced" in a manner by his girlfriend. There is something to consider here, however. If your son is a psychopath then it is not really seduction, but a matter of like attracting like. Instead of her feeding upon him, they may be feeding on each other (probably the closest thing to love for a psychopath).Lucy said:Hmmm...just remembered something. A few weeks ago my son, who is deeply involved with a young woman who is clearly a psychopath, told me, "she's the female me, and I'm the male her, and together we make one whole person." Perhaps the skirt on him represents their exchange of male/female energies? Or attachments he has gotten from her. I do remember the alarm I felt when he made the above statement. It was creepy to me. Of course, by this time I'd realized her true nature...and was finally seriously considering how his 'matched'. I still don't 'know' if he is a genetic psychopath, has attachments, or has simply chosen his current path. But, I do know that right now his 'behavior' is psychopathic in the extreme.
It's most likely the girl in the dream IS that person, while at the same time more than that person. Think about it...if the Jah material struck you personally through your JW experiences, then the personal experience with the girl could have triggered a more general perception of how the "game" is played at more than one level.Lucy said:Could the 'girl' also represent a real person who is aware I know what and who she is? She may even be worried that I will somehow manage to communicate this to one of her victims...my son...and as she very plainly told me: "He is MINE!" And the look on her face was 'creepy and scary' when she said it...In retrospect I realize she understood her 'game' better than I did. Although she does not physically look like the the girl in my dream, the darkness, foreign-ness (of her nature to mine), verbal forcefulness, and powerfulness (in a feminine/sexual way as well as 'otherwise') describes her very well. And in the dream I encountered 'the girl' while in a somewhat muddled state, being momentarily preoccupied/distracted with the wine, it was just enough to provide her with an opportunity to get me out of the car before I could warn the boys. This is similar to something that happened in real life. Am I processing 'the past', forseeing the 'future' or gaining an acceptance of the 'present'?
I just mentioned this because I didn't want to jump into the personal factors here, as I had little information. Your son is pivotal, of course, because he is a prime and immediate example of your encounter with manipulative seduction at the personal level. His example may also apply to many other.Lucy said:Why do you think my son would not also be representative? I'm not understanding that, although I'm not disputing it...I don't know enough to dipute it.EsoQuest said:The dream could have easily been your own simulation, but it could have been a kind of astral experience involving encoutering thoughtforms of groups of young people encountering such ideas. Each person in the dream (aside from your son) could have represented many people with the same "attitude".
I am perceiving the encounter with my son as pivotal.
My son met this girl after leaving home, and has been involved with her for more than two years now, and since they live a couple hundred miles away I've only seen them occasionally, and talked to them on the phone now and then. My sense was that my son was very much in love (in his first serious long term relationship) and was happy. And I was glad for him, and predisposed to 'like' the person who was a major party to his 'happiness'. As I had done with my older child's partner, I welcomed her into my family...if my son loved her, then that was what mattered to me...and although I sensed now and then that there were things about her that were puzzling, or maybe a little 'off', I set them aside. I haven't, even now, actually criticized her to him.EsoQuest said:Mother/son relationships can be complicated. Personally, my mother disapproved of EVERY girl I liked, and any girl that met with her approval did not meet with mine. [...] And I have to say, being nagged about my personal choices does not sit well with me, especially when I am not sure about them myself. I am sensitive to other's feelings, and although I am not easily manipulated, the pressure feels very uncomfortable to me. So I guess any child needs to find their space and learn how to move about it..
Which is also the case with the child who is still at home with me. Thanks for the reminder. Of course, my son may truly be a genetic psychopath, and if so, then our parent/child relationship is of a different nature.EsoQuest said:I also find that once you have your say as a parent, that input stays with the child regardless of the outcome. If the choices an offspring makes are wrong for them, parental influence is always in the background to be referenced.
Actually, my 'impression' at the time was the latter. It was very hard to watch them together once I 'saw' this. It was so creepy it literally raised the hair on the back of my neck. I do see the girlfriend as the stronger of the two, the one 'in charge'...but I don't necessarily see him as a victim. He is a willing participant, for whatever reason. What I'm not 'sure' about is if he's willing because he's a psychopath, has attachments, or is a soul in struggle.EsoQuest said:It appears to me that you view your son as being "seduced" in a manner by his girlfriend. There is something to consider here, however. If your son is a psychopath then it is not really seduction, but a matter of like attracting like. Instead of her feeding upon him, they may be feeding on each other (probably the closest thing to love for a psychopath).
Yes, I'm also considering this...and if he is a 'soul in struggle' rather than a true psychopath, then a 'search for wholeness' would seem to fit.EsoQuest said:If your son is not a genetic/inherent psychopath, but is simply exhibiting symptoms, he probably feels something is missing in himself. And he probably feels this girl has the answer, an answer you cannot supply, and which he does not want you to supply. In this case, he probably wants to search for wholeness on his terms, and part of that journey is discovering what those terms are.
And that's the fence I'm stuck on and can't seem to get off of. And, if he is a 'soul in struggle' then making the wrong diagnosis will be harmful...which is agonizing to contemplate. At this point I've cut off contact because it's obvious I need to (even his father is so disgusted he's severely limited contact). I made this decision not only for myself, but because of his (and his girlfriend's) negative influence on my youngest child...much of which I only recently became fully aware of. I'm working with her to undo some of the damage, and to help her become strong enough, and knowledgeable enough, to protect herself. (There's that mentoring again.) I know I can only do so much, and will soon have to step back...but not just yet, thank goodness. I'm trying to make the most of this last opportunity with her...and to 'get it right'. To "keep my integrity" as you say.EsoQuest said:In all of this I think it is important to come to understand if your son is an inherent psychopath or simply undergoing psychopathic symptoms for whatever reason. This will help you keep your integrity at all times when dealing with the situation whatever may come.
Okay, you've managed to articulate into words what I'm now 'getting' on some level, but couldn't organize well enough to verbalize. Well done EQ! And, as Gurdjieff said. "Use the present to repair the past and prepare the future,"EsoQuest said:It's most likely the girl in the dream IS that person, while at the same time more than that person. Think about it...if the Jah material struck you personally through your JW experiences, then the personal experience with the girl could have triggered a more general perception of how the "game" is played at more than one level.
Your subconscious could have been making links back and forth between what goes on in cults and what goes on in your immediate family. Cults seduce and then feed. What you described regarding the girl in the dream seems like "cradle robbing" of sorts with an older woman seducing the more gullible males, and you could also see the experienced Jah as a psychic cradle robber.
So to me the personal/transpersonal elements blend in your dream (with your son symbolzing the personal and the two men the transpersonal version) for a kind of encompassing "bottom-line" assessment of the deeper pattern that goes beyond any one field of its manifestation.
And it can also be a past processing, combined with an assessment of the present and a prediction (as opposed to a forseeing) of the future. Forseeding, I take as an actual glimpse, while prediction is more of a projection based on the facts available, like predicting the weather. And you obviously have enough facts to come up with an archtype of your experiences with such seductions.
It certainly keeps coming up again and again! I'm being bombarded with it, aren't I? Ah...what the Universe will do to get one's attention!EsoQuest said:And perhaps to identify this archtype and share the experience with others prone to fall into it is that which draws you. At the same time, you may be learning this even more deeply by understanding when to mentor, and when to let the birds attempt to fly on their own.
And why does this not surprise me?EsoQuest said:This is what I meant when I said "both directions". That your role as guide extends through the full extent of the navigating the archtype of seductive manipulation, from immedate personal to the more generalized transpersonal applications of group dynamics and ideologies. It seems to be that you are karmically confronting the same "beast" in all its forms.
This is very hard for me to do...to "trust in the impact of my experience." It goes against my programming. And yet, in so many ways it seems I already do this pretty well in one direction. My main struggle with it is on a personal/family scale. But it needs to be balanced in both directions, doesn't it, for the lesson to "go away," as the C's say?EsoQuest said:The lesson seems to be that you need to trust in the impact of your experience even if you have no immediate feedback from it. For any seed to grow, it needs fertile ground, moisture, light etc. You may be throwing seeds on parched land, but at some point rains to come even in the desert. That is when those seeds sprout, and you simply may not be there to witness it.
Another thing is that we affect others by who we are, not by what we do. In other words, what we do as a consequence of who we are has the most profound results, not what we do in and of itself because some actions are natural and others artificial and forced even if well-meaning. So you can develop an inner sense of knowing when you have done the optimum you can do. And even if that does not SEEM to be enough, it may well just what is needed for that particular situation.
As Laura recently posted: Gurdjieff taught that, since we are all One, what each of us does for ourselves in terms of self-development and awakening, we do for others, because when we withdraw from the "feeding dynamic," we are then able to assist others to withdraw"EsoQuest said:And I think your life is teaching you this understanding that can optimize the value of your contribution. When you know the seeds you planted have been given all the possible conditions to grow, even if they do not in some cases, you have made a profound contribution to the world and the lives of others around you..
In this case I have certainly found it to be very beneficial. Thanks for your help.EsoQuest said:I think there is a synchronistic effect between posted dreams and replies that makes this part of forum one of the most beneficial.
In my case, I was unwanted by my mother at the time. My brother, on the other hand was wanted by here, but my father was unsure (although not against). So my mother has a tendency to view my brother as the son that she chose to have. I was a bit of a reminder of her anger at my father, an anger she did not want to express in his direction, and now that he died her behaviour changed radically toward me.Lucy said:When I think about him I quite naturally have a 'picture' of him that includes not only his current psychopathic behavior, but also of him as a small child...and a seemingly very loving one.
I think you are 'book-ended', and that it is a primary lesson. I think you are 'book-ended' from many directions, and have the opportunity to understand a whole "zoo" of psychopathic dynamics focused on you. Your dream also seems to have addressed this karmic issue as an issue where the personal aspects are only one part. It's almost as if the theme "Book-ended by Psychopaths" (starring Lucy), is one of the titles of the "movie" of your life, and the themes of mentorship and guidance, and all that involves form a complementary title.Lucy said:So now I'm grappling with thoughts of having been 'book-ended' by psychopaths, and loving them both dearly...and what that means. It would seem to be a primary lesson...or karmic.
Join the club! :)Lucy said:This is very hard for me to do...to "trust in the impact of my experience." It goes against my programming. And yet, in so many ways it seems I already do this pretty well in one direction. My main struggle with it is on a personal/family scale. But it needs to be balanced in both directions, doesn't it, for the lesson to "go away," as the C's say?
I understand this. And that doubt can easily be used against a person by those prone to manipulation. That's why gaining a balanced perspective regarding what constitutes responsibility is a major lesson and key to going into even more challenging areas and lessons.Lucy said:Yet, although I understand this, for me it seems I harbor a lot of doubt in those situations where I have some responsibility for those "conditions to grow." I agonize...wondering if I have actually done my best...and the doubtful thinking that 'maybe I haven't' actually causes me physical pain.
Interesting you should bring this up as it has reminded me of some other 'things' that I also 'carry' in that 'picture' of my son.EQ said:In my case, I was unwanted by my mother at the time. My brother, on the other hand was wanted by here, but my father was unsure (although not against). So my mother has a tendency to view my brother as the son that she chose to have. I was a bit of a reminder of her anger at my father, an anger she did not want to express in his direction, and now that he died her behaviour changed radically toward me.Lucy said:When I think about him I quite naturally have a 'picture' of him that includes not only his current psychopathic behavior, but also of him as a small child...and a seemingly very loving one.
My brother, on the other hand, always showed her the face she wanted to see. And she attributed all these qualities to him that were at least exaggerations. My brother is not necessarily a bad person, but he is a survivor and saw how I was treated. So he acted as he thought he should act, and it had results. The myth of the innocent accepting child sometimes has reflections in reality, but often it does not. Cold calculation is a human trait, evident in children and adults, and can be independent of upbringing or family environment IMO.
In the same loving household an empathic child will relate to the environment differently and interpret it differently than a child who is more instinctual and survival oriented. And there are so many variables from conception to adulthood, that stimulate different infants and children in profoundly different ways that triggers resulting in ingrained attitudes can appear in the most seemingly innocent of circumstances. One child can be completely unaffected by a trigger that will profoundly influence another child.
Yes. Their is a unique structure to my background and life experiences that seems to have lead me to the very place I am now that are a part of this. I've 'sensed' this for a few years, but now it is as though the mist is clearing and the "zoo" is becoming more visible. There is 'something' about the idea of all these "psychopathic dynamics" being "focused" on me that I've been aware of, but resisting.EQ said:I think you are 'book-ended', and that it is a primary lesson. I think you are 'book-ended' from many directions, and have the opportunity to understand a whole "zoo" of psychopathic dynamics focused on you.Lucy said:So now I'm grappling with thoughts of having been 'book-ended' by psychopaths, and loving them both dearly...and what that means. It would seem to be a primary lesson...or karmic.
Last night I had another of these mentorship dreams, this one 'guest starring' two close family members. This dream again reflected my desire to help a particular 'group' of humanity on a larger scale, and at the same time contained the playing out of a negative 'feeding' dynamic between all of us that I have allowed to continue...as in, "First one them feeds on me and then the next person feeds on 'that' person, the progression of which also hurts me."EQ said:Your dream also seems to have addressed this karmic issue as an issue where the personal aspects are only one part. It's almost as if the theme "Book-ended by Psychopaths" (starring Lucy), is one of the titles of the "movie" of your life, and the themes of mentorship and guidance, and all that involves form a complementary title.
Lucy said:As Laura recently posted: Gurdjieff taught that, since we are all One, what each of us does for ourselves in terms of self-development and awakening, we do for others, because when we withdraw from the "feeding dynamic," we are then able to assist others to withdraw"
As was so vividly reflected in my latest dream.EQ said:Join the club! :) "Challenge" IMO doesn't even begin to describe it. I find, however, that usually what comes easier to us holds a strength and insight for what does not come so easy. What comes easier can be mastered easier, and we can have a sense of being adept at least in some areas of our lives. Since the issue is accross the board, being adept in what comes easy is a step away from dealing with the more difficult areas. And they are difficult because they go deep and the full impact of the issue hits home, right at karmic wound central.Lucy said:This is very hard for me to do...to "trust in the impact of my experience." It goes against my programming. And yet, in so many ways it seems I already do this pretty well in one direction. My main struggle with it is on a personal/family scale. But it needs to be balanced in both directions, doesn't it, for the lesson to "go away," as the C's say?
Synchronistically, this was also part of my latest dream. Played out in such a way that the 'hurt' of it was so strong that I couldn't ignore it. And I could suddenly see how I was negatively contributing to the "conditions to grow" for a feeding situation happening to someone I care about at the same time I was hurting myself.EQ said:I understand this. And that doubt can easily be used against a person by those prone to manipulation. That's why gaining a balanced perspective regarding what constitutes responsibility is a major lesson and key to going into even more challenging areas and lessons.Lucy said:Yet, although I understand this, for me it seems I harbor a lot of doubt in those situations where I have some responsibility for those "conditions to grow." I agonize...wondering if I have actually done my best...and the doubtful thinking that 'maybe I haven't' actually causes me physical pain.
For me the macro-scale is the softer wall, and the micro-scale is the tougher wall....but I seem to be getting closer to confronting them both together...or perhaps I'm in the active process of doing so...and this is being shown to me (I'm accessing my subconscious?) in my dreams.EQ said:One step at a time, and part of the path is learning which step to take first, so what you gain from that can fortify you for the next stage. Knowing yourself also reveals the right progression of what needs to be confronted for a smoother growth dynamic. Sometimes the tougher walls we confront repell us because there are softer walls that we should confront first.
As I read this I 'flashed' on how my mother's emotional abuse and programming set me up for seeing responsibility as a burden, partially through 'using' my natural inclination is to be willing to accept responsibility and then 'showing' me that it was a burden to her, and if I was doing it right, then I would also find it a burden.EQ said:If you can come to terms with your relationship with the concept of "responsibility", it will reveal new options and make many former obstacles reduntant, and lessen the impact of all others. One way I like to look at the word "resonsibility" is as "response-ability", the ability to respond in the right manner (with integrity, acceptance and insight) to every situation. The debilitating way one can approach this concept, on the other hand, is as "burden".
By golly, I think you're right! :DEQ said:I think, from what you wrote, that you are well on your way. :)
You know, I've been observing in myself and others a tendency to move to discover the primary theme of their lives. A sense of being able to compile all major life lessons together, and distill a common meaning from them. It is like an answer to the question of one's personal existence, and real destiny reflected off of the contradictions and difficulties one confronts in life.Lucy said:Yes. Their is a unique structure to my background and life experiences that seems to have lead me to the very place I am now that are a part of this. I've 'sensed' this for a few years, but now it is as though the mist is clearing and the "zoo" is becoming more visible. There is 'something' about the idea of all these "psychopathic dynamics" being "focused" on me that I've been aware of, but resisting.EsoQuest said:I think you are 'book-ended', and that it is a primary lesson. I think you are 'book-ended' from many directions, and have the opportunity to understand a whole "zoo" of psychopathic dynamics focused on you.Lucy said:So now I'm grappling with thoughts of having been 'book-ended' by psychopaths, and loving them both dearly...and what that means. It would seem to be a primary lesson...or karmic.
And I do not think that anyone has to go around touring the countryside "teaching" or "saving" or even inspiring people. What I believe is that as one changes one's energy from confusion to integrity, and begins affecting one's personal environment, a kind of domino effect follows where people with the similar contradictions but without the corresponding lessons to understand them, benefit from the example of those that do, in what you might call a non-local manner.Gurdjieff taught that, since we are all One, what each of us does for ourselves in terms of self-development and awakening, we do for others, because when we withdraw from the "feeding dynamic," we are then able to assist others to withdraw"
Yes, this is how I'm feeling right now.EsoQuest said:You know, I've been observing in myself and others a tendency to move to discover the primary theme of their lives.
This is my take on the matter, which I think is very important. There are two fundamental parts to the "Work" for anyone. The second part is actually that which we attribute as the "work" proper. This is our positive evolution represented by a path particular to us where we fulfill our destiny. In the more organized presentations of tradition, this isrepresented by esoteric societies and individuals pursuing "what they need to do" in this life to fulfill their destiny.Lucy said:And I'm getting the idea that the "primary theme" is actually the same for all of us, but with personal variations based on how each of us find ourselves confronting this theme through our life experiences...our lessons, karmic and otherwise. Seems the theme is OP's, psychopathy, ponerology...and we each must discover for ourselves and make all the connections that apply not only to our own lives, but to our collective experience as well.