Joy and Gratitude

Esote

Dagobah Resident
I know: we live in some kind of a prison and it's very serious, cause we're going to get killed and somehow eaten, at least we'll disappear and more or less die, if we haven't been through enough suffering to learn about the whole stuff.
And don't go back to your dreams, open your eyes!
Awake?

Now, I'd like to introduce quite another perspective, which actually is pretty much some sort of a balancing opportunity:

How about the joy of living, the joy of being? And about the gratitude to life, to the Divine Cosmic Mind?

Without inner Joy and sincere Gratitude, even in our condition of 3D basic humans, I doubt there is any true worthy path to follow, be it esoteric...

I apologize that I didn't read enough of the Cassiopaean material yet, and I'd appreciate to be given some clues and links about this topic, in regard to the C's
 
Hi Esote,I don't think anyone ever said that it was not the case but how do you reach inner joy and sincere gratitude ?

I think it's more a matter to enjoy the little pleasure of life without expecting them to be a rush of happiness that last forever. I don't think there can be true joy without knowing thing as they are as difficult or horrible as they may sometimes be.
My two cents.
 
Tigersoap said:
Hi Esote,I don't think anyone ever said that it was not the case but how do you reach inner joy and sincere gratitude ?

I think it's more a matter to enjoy the little pleasure of life without expecting them to be a rush of happiness that last forever. I don't think there can be true joy without knowing thing as they are as difficult or horrible as they may sometimes be.
My two cents.

Thank you Tigersoap for your two cents reply, which makes real sense :)
 
Thinking about it maybe you'd be interested to read "In Search of Happiness" by John F. Schumaker and "Lost Christianity" by Jacob Needleman but maybe other members would be able to add something else ;)
 
I think it's possible to have plenty of gratitude toward Life / DCM if we do take everything as a lesson and part of our growth. When we struggle to live that, it's pretty natural to have gratitude for the opportunities, osit.
 
Esote said:
I apologize that I didn't read enough of the Cassiopaean material yet, and I'd appreciate to be given some clues and links about this topic, in regard to the C's

If you go here you will find many things of Laura's to read. I'd start with Amazing Grace, which is no longer in print, and then the Wave. Also, it would be very beneficial to read Laura's books Secret History of the World and 9/11: The Ultimate Truth that was written with Joe Quinn.
 
Hi escote. I think I agree with what you are conveying to some extent.

I know: we live in some kind of a prison and it's very serious, cause we're going to get killed and somehow eaten, at least we'll disappear and more or less die, if we haven't been through enough suffering to learn about the whole stuff.
And don't go back to your dreams, open your eyes!
Awake?

Now, I'd like to introduce quite another perspective, which actually is pretty much some sort of a balancing opportunity:

How about the joy of living, the joy of being? And about the gratitude to life, to the Divine Cosmic Mind?

I don't really know that the joy of living is another perspective. It's a reality that people go through both periods of suffering and joy. I guess a reminder can't hurt, but it does seem kind of silly to remind someone to have joy. As if they are not as happy as they should be, i don't think this is the correct concept. for this reason I don't think joy itself is really "a perspective"

Without inner Joy and sincere Gratitude, even in our condition of 3D basic humans, I doubt there is any true worthy path to follow, be it esoteric...
Yes. i think sincere gratitude is part of the objective of the Work. All humans are selfish to a degree. sincere gratitude, 'true', not temporary, not false, is quite the accomplishment I think.


I don't know if "awakening" and inner joy are incompatible with each other. you are saying they are two different perspectives. 'fighting sleep' might not be all that fun, but then do not do it. the majority of people remain asleep because it is most comfortable. the people that recognize sleep, or fight it, do so because it is desirable to do so. It's fun. maybe think about it this way... I cannot say it makes perfect sense because the Work is fighting against the machine and what it likes. but also fighting against what it does not like. I this sense there is increased suffering but also freedom from displeasure, the things 'it' does not like. Also if we consider that the one thing a man cannot give up is his suffering, the Work can freedom from this. but most people find a lot of inner joy in suffering--to go through hardship, to strive for a goal, to boast about it. but is this 'true joy'. no but this is what I think the Work promises/ offers.
 
Thank you all for your interesting answers.

I agree with your point wetroof, joy and gratitude are not a different perspective.
I guess it's part of the Balance.
An important part though, when we see the STS way as a negation of life as it is, fighting it and being real far from true inner joy and gratitude, which should be one expression of the work toward STO IMO
 
Joy and gratitude? Well, there's an old saying: "Ignorance is bliss."

But I'll give you a hint: when you find something truly worthy of joy and gratitude WITH full cognizance, the experience is so far beyond what your post suggests that it's not even in the same reality.

Ponder that.
 
Laura said:
Joy and gratitude? Well, there's an old saying: "Ignorance is bliss."

But I'll give you a hint: when you find something truly worthy of joy and gratitude WITH full cognizance, the experience is so far beyond what your post suggests that it's not even in the same reality.

Ponder that.

Thank you Laura for your hint to ponder with.

I know that words and concepts are far from being what is, or even having the exact same meaning for anybody.
And sharing our own understanding is not an evidence at all.

That's one of the main interests with this forum, because we have to be very clear and accurate and always have to think a little bit further.

The bliss coming from ignorance is definitely not what I tried to suggest. And I am so limited as an average human being, that I usually can't express much more than an average conditioning.

Sometimes I may have wondered if it were really worth it to keep dealing with words and concepts.
Actually, meditation takes care of this issue and communication, sharing information is a must , a basic need all around.

Well, did I hear "what about the kind of information, the quality of the communication and the background knowledge"?

Awakened awareness is something to be
 
Esote said:
I know: we live in some kind of a prison and it's very serious, cause we're going to get killed and somehow eaten, at least we'll disappear and more or less die, if we haven't been through enough suffering to learn about the whole stuff.
And don't go back to your dreams, open your eyes!
Awake?

I would venture to say that you do not "know" that you are in some kind of prison. You have read about the concept and you have adopted it for the sake of communication. When you come to the stage of actually feeling this "prison" - in your body, heart and mind - then you will start having a different perspective about the reality we are in. But to come to that stage, you will need to persevere in a somewhat uncomfortable state - and not everyone can do that.

Esote said:
Now, I'd like to introduce quite another perspective, which actually is pretty much some sort of a balancing opportunity:

How about the joy of living, the joy of being? And about the gratitude to life, to the Divine Cosmic Mind?

Without inner Joy and sincere Gratitude, even in our condition of 3D basic humans, I doubt there is any true worthy path to follow, be it esoteric...

There is nothing wrong with being grateful and finding joy in small things of life. The way you have presented joy and gratitude however is much beyond the scope of basic 3D humans. One can feel "inner joy" when the stomach is full and people around treat you well - but that feeling usually disappears when external conditions are different. So there is really no "inner joy" - there is only momentary feelings of joy when things go in our favor. Same is usually true for gratitude. And realizing that it can be no other way since the basic 3D human is a reaction machine completely at the mercy of external environment and inner conditioning is in itself a big step.

Esote, you mentioned "worthy esoteric path" in your first post. The path that is followed in the forum here involves first seeing our condition as it is, without any rationalization or justification. What is seen can and has been described in words - but it never substitutes for glimpses of personal experience. So when you see that the joy, gratitude and beauty that you have been referring to are mostly mechanical reactions (barring perhaps very few fleeting glimpses of the genuine emotions), you may start looking at them differently. Again, there is nothing wrong with observing and appreciating those aspects of life which does bring us positive emotions. But until substantial progress has been made on this esoteric path, the majority of the experiences are predominantly negative in character. Turning away from such experiences and preferring to latch on and prolong positive feel-good states are considered to be detrimental to one's progress. Not saying that you are doing that but thought it would be worthwhile to raise this point in this context.


I will end this post with a short story (which I had first heard in a Buddhist context, if my memory serves me correctly) about a colony of lepers living in isolation in a deep forest. They lived in squalor and misery but since all of them never knew of any other way of living, they were happy. When their pain became too much to bear, they would rub themselves against the walls of a pit of hot coals which provided some measure of relief. They never went out of their colony and discouraged anyone from doing so.
One young man was dissatisfied with the life in the colony and decided to venture out on his own, against the wishes of the others. After a lot of trials and tribulations, he came to a big city where he met a physician who was able to cure him of his condition. He started living a normal life in the city. One day, he remembered the old colony that he came from and decided to visit it. When he came to the colony and saw his friends and family members rubbing themselves against burning coals to get some relief from their pain, his eyes filled with tears. He had a hard time reconciling to the fact that he himself had done the same thing thinking it was providing relief for his past condition. He begged them to come out of their colony and seek a real cure for their condition but they refused. They had convinced themselves that they were all quite happy in their present state and sought no solution.

fwiw
 
obyvatel said:
I would venture to say that you do not "know" that you are in some kind of prison. You have read about the concept and you have adopted it for the sake of communication. When you come to the stage of actually feeling this "prison" - in your body, heart and mind - then you will start having a different perspective about the reality we are in. But to come to that stage, you will need to persevere in a somewhat uncomfortable state - and not everyone can do that.

I do know since a relatively very long time that we are in a prison. And yet I know, or think I know you would say, that it is our interpretation due to our level of awareness. Being uncomfortable isn't a problem, for me at least, but fear is a heavy burden for everyone to wear :shock:

And not appreciating and being in the present moment as it is, because there is so much to fear, to fight, to endure, to learn... is part of the prison

There is nothing wrong with being grateful and finding joy in small things of life. The way you have presented joy and gratitude however is much beyond the scope of basic 3D humans. One can feel "inner joy" when the stomach is full and people around treat you well - but that feeling usually disappears when external conditions are different. So there is really no "inner joy" - there is only momentary feelings of joy when things go in our favor. Same is usually true for gratitude. And realizing that it can be no other way since the basic 3D human is a reaction machine completely at the mercy of external environment and inner conditioning is in itself a big step.

You decided that there can't be no other way, because you think it's impossible. You may (must) be right, but it's still conditioning.

Our human consciousness 3D machine-system might be at the mercy of whatever, there is always free will...

Esote, you mentioned "worthy esoteric path" in your first post. The path that is followed in the forum here involves first seeing our condition as it is, without any rationalization or justification. What is seen can and has been described in words - but it never substitutes for glimpses of personal experience. So when you see that the joy, gratitude and beauty that you have been referring to are mostly mechanical reactions (barring perhaps very few fleeting glimpses of the genuine emotions), you may start looking at them differently. Again, there is nothing wrong with observing and appreciating those aspects of life which does bring us positive emotions. But until substantial progress has been made on this esoteric path, the majority of the experiences are predominantly negative in character. Turning away from such experiences and preferring to latch on and prolong positive feel-good states are considered to be detrimental to one's progress. Not saying that you are doing that but thought it would be worthwhile to raise this point in this context.

This is a very good point to raise in this context.

I have been referring to joy, gratitude and beauty because I wanted to know the kind of reactions I'd get from this forum, where it would be shared and appreciated by some of the members.
It's not that I am naive, but I think it is interesting, for me and a lot of people I guess, to dig into these issues.

I talked about simplicity too. Let's say clarity, sincerity, serenity...

Being like a young kid! Bliss would then be Innocence :halo: Would that still be a trick from the bad guys? :evil:
Don't bother answering to this last one, I'm just kidding :P
 
Esote said:
You decided that there can't be no other way, because you think it's impossible. You may (must) be right, but it's still conditioning.

Our human consciousness 3D machine-system might be at the mercy of whatever, there is always free will...

You might gain a bit of understanding if you read "The Adaptive Unconscious" thread.
 
Laura said:
You might gain a bit of understanding if you read "The Adaptive Unconscious" thread.

Great thread, thanks Laura!

Free will isn't the proper expression for a 3D STS mode. It sounds more like some kind of wishful thinking now, in this perspective.

Another illusion: Free will, beauty, joy, gratitude... flashes from lighthouses giving the direction to follow from time to time, in order to reach the truth of it.

Well, I'm still into shortcomings.

I know that I don't know
 
Maybe this quote from The Wave will give you further insights in your questioning about positive feeling, or so I hope :

What happened to "love?" What happened to "oneness," goodness, unity, God being in His heaven and all being right with the world? What happened to all the consciousness raising that was supposed to be going on all over the planet? What happened to being "safe" if you surrounded yourself with "love and light" and positive thinking? Over and over again I was shown that these things were merely masks of the "feeding machine." There is layer after layer of illusions.

Of course, the question arose: had I studied the darkness so long that I had fallen into it? Was my effort to eradicate the lies and confusion really an admission of their existence that then caused them to manifest in my life? Was I seeing a mirror of myself? At that point I read in William James' Varieties of Religious Experience:

"At our last meeting, we considered the healthy-minded temperament, the temperament which has a constitutional incapacity for prolonged suffering, and in which the tendency to see things optimistically is like a water of crystallization in which the individual's character is set. We saw how this temperament may become the basis for a peculiar type of religion, a religion in which good, even the good of this world's life, is regarded as the essential thing for a rational being to attend to. This religion directs him to settle his scores with the more evil aspects of the universe by systematically declining to lay them to heart or make much of them, by ignoring them in his reflective calculations, or even, on occasion, by denying them outright. Evil is a disease and worry about evil is a disease in itself. Even repentance and remorse.. may be but sickly impulses.

"Let us now... turn towards those persons who cannot so swiftly throw off the burden of the consciousness of evil, but are congenitally fated to suffer from its presence. ...there are different levels of the morbid mind... there are people for whom evil means only a maladjustment with things, a wrong correspondence of one's life with the environment. Such evil as this is curable... by either modifying the self or the things or both at once. There are others for whom evil is... a wrongness or vice in [their] essential structure, which no alteration in the environment, or any superficial rearrangement of the inner self, can cure, and which requires a supernatural remedy. On the whole, the Latin races have leaned more towards the former way of looking upon evil, ...while the Germanic races have tended rather to think of Sin in the singular, and with a capital S, as of something ineradicably ingrained in our natural subjectivity, and never to be removed by any superficial piecemeal operations.

"...we speak of the threshold of a man's consciousness in general, to indicate the amount of noise, pressure, or other outer stimulus which it takes to arouse his attention at all. One with a high threshold will doze through an amount of racket by which one with a low threshold would be immediately waked. Similarly, when one is sensitive to small differences in any order of sensation, we say he has a low 'difference threshold.' His mind easily steps over it into the consciousness of the differences in question. And just so we might speak of a 'pain threshold' a 'fear threshold,' a 'misery threshold,' and find it quickly overpassed by the consciousness of some individuals, but lying too high in others to be reached by their consciousness.

"Goethe [expressed] 'I will say nothing against the course of my existence. But at the bottom it has been nothing but pain and burden, and I can affirm that during the whole of my 75 years, I have not had four weeks of genuine well-being. It is but the perpetual rolling of a rock that must be raised up again forever.'

"And Martin Luther said: 'I am utterly weary of life. I pray the Lord will come forthwith and carry me hence... rather than live forty years more, I would give up my chance of Paradise.'

"The only relief that 'healthy mindedness' can give is: 'Stuff and nonsense! Get out into the open air! Cheer up, you'll be all right if you will only drop your morbidness!' But, to ascribe spiritual value to mere happy-go-lucky contentment is but the very consecration of forgetfulness and superficiality. Our troubles are that we CAN die, that we CAN be ill, that we ... need a life not correlated with death, a health not laible to illness, a good that will not perish... said a friend: 'The trouble with me is that I believe too much in happiness and goodness and nothing can console me for their transiency.'

"[And so those who experience] a little cooling down of animal excitability and instinct, a little loss of animal toughness, a little descent of the pain threshold, brings the worm at the core of all our usual springs of delight into full view, and turns us into melancholy metaphysicians.

"Conceive yourself, if possible, suddenly stripped of all the emotion with which your world now inspires you and try to imagine it as it exists, purely by itself, without your favorable, hopeful or apprehensive comment. It will be almost impossible for you to realize such a condition of negativity and deadness. Whatever of value, interest, or meaning our world may appear endued with are pure gifts of the spectator's mind. [For example] love transforms the creature loved as utterly as the sunrise transforms Mont Blanc from a corpse-like gray to a rosy enchantment. [So with our emotions] if they are there, life changes. [This alone should tell us how easily our emotions can be used to control or hypnotize us!]

"In Tolstoy's case the sense that life had any meaning whatever was for a time wholly withdrawn. The result was a transformation in the whole expression of reality. When we study the phenomenon of regeneration, we shall see that a not infrequent consequence of the change is a transfiguration of the face of nature in his eyes. ...An urgent wondering and questioning is set up, a poring theoretic activity, and in the desperate effort to get into right relation with the matter, the sufferer is often led to a solution...
p>"Tolstoy writes: '...I was neither insane nor ill. On the contrary, I possessed a physical and mental strength which I have rarely met in persons of my age. I could mow as well as the peasants, I could work with my brain eight hours uninterruptedly and feel no bad effects. And yet I could give no reasonable meaning to any actions of my life. And I was surprised that I had not understood this from the very beginning. My state of mind was as if some wicked and stupid jest was being played upon me by someone. One can live only so long as one is intoxicated, drunk with life but when one grows sober one cannot fail to see that it is all a stupid cheat. What is truest about it is that there is nothing even funny or silly in it; it is cruel and stupid, purely and simply. But perhaps, I said to myself, there may be something I have failed to notice or to comprehend. it is not possible that this condition of despair should be natural to mankind. And I sought for an explanaton in all the branches of knowledge acquired by men. I questioned painfully and protractedly and with no idle curiosity. I sought, not with indolence, but laboriously and obstinately for days and nights on end. I sought like a man who is lost and seeks to save himself - and I found nothing. I became convinced, moreover, that all those who before me had sought for an answer in the sciences have also found nothing. And not only this, but that they have recognized that the very thing which was leading me to despair - the meaningless absurdity of life - is the only incontestable knowledge accessible to man.'

"The only thing that need interest us now is the phenomenon of this absolute disenchantment with ordinary life... when disillusionment has gone as far as this, when one has tasted of the fruit of the tree, and the happiness of Eden never comes again... the only happiness that then can come is something vastly more complex, including natural evil as one of its elements. The sufferer is born again as a deeper kind of conscious being than he could be before.

"Having arrived at this point, we can see the antagonism that must arise between the 'healthy-minded' optimist and the morbid-minded who take the experience of viewing evil as essential. To the latter, 'healthy-mindedness' seems unspeakably blind and shallow. To the former, the latter seems seems unmanly and diseased. They believe that there is something almost obscene about these children of wrath and cravers of a second birth. And, if religious intolerance, hanging and burning at the stake, were still in vogue, there is little doubt that the 'healthy-minded' would advocate the destruction of the morbid minded rather than the other way around.

"The method of averting one's attention from evil, and living simply in the light of good is splendid as long as it will work. ...yet there is no doubt that 'healthy-mindedness is inadequate as a philosophical doctrine, because the evil facts which it refuses positively to account for are a genuine portion of reality; and these evil facts may be, after all, the best key to life's significance, and possibly the only openers of our eyes to the deepest levels of truth.

"The lunatic's visions of horror are all drawn from the material of daily fact. Our civilization is founded on the shambles and every individual existence goes out in a lonely spasm of helpless agony. To believe in the carnivorous reptiles of geologic times is hard for our imagination - they seem too much like museum specimens. Yet there is no tooth in any one of those museum skulls that did not daily hold fast to the body struggling in despair of some fated living victim. Forms of horror just as dreadful to the victims fill the world about us today. Here, on our very hearths, the infernal cat plays with the panting mouse or holds the hot bird fluttering in her jaws. Crocodiles, pythons and rattlesnakes are vessels of life as real as we are; and whenever they or other wild beasts clutch their living prey, the deadly horror which the morbid minded feels is the literally right reaction to the situation.

"...Since the evil facts are as genuine parts of nature as the good ones, and our philosophic presumption should be that they have some rational significance, then systematic failure to accord these things active attention is less complete than those systems that attempt to include these elements in their scope. The 'healthy-minded optimists only need to be born once, but the 'sick souls' need to be born twice to be happy.

[Laura's note: The result is two different conceptions of the universe: subjective and objecfive.]

"In the once born, the world is a one-storied affair... whose parts have just the values which they appear to have... [to the twice born] the world is a double-storied mystery. Natural good is not simply insufficient in amount and transient, there lurks a falsity in its very being. It keeps us from our real good and renunciation and despair of it are our first step in the direction of the truth. There are two lives, the natural and the spiritual and we must lose the one before we can participate in the other."
 
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