Larken Rose - Anarchism

Voluntarism

The Force is Strong With This One
...Voluntarism, Larken Rose and so on? I´m interested in your opinion because I think it´s an important issue, also with regard to the issue of psychopathy. And please check out all these informations in an unbiased way (/ in a truly objective manner?) :) oh and I hope my english is good enough.. :-[



Here´s some stuff about it (englisch/german):

- the matrix (taxcattle on a taxfarm: thou art that) / matrix - steuervieh auf einer steuerfarm: das bist du _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P772Eb63qIY / _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQNJ-82UvMU

- government explained / das ding namens regierung _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUS1m5MSt9k / _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDjf6KYiffA




- disproving the state - four arguments against government / die widerlegung des staates: 4 argumente gegen eine regierung

Two objections constantly recur whenever the subject of dissolving the State arises. The first is that a free society is only possible if people are perfectly good or rational. In other words, citizens need a centralized State because there are evil people in the world.

The first and most obvious problem with this position is that if evil people exist in society, they will also exist within the State — and be far more dangerous thereby. Citizens are able to protect themselves against evil individuals, but stand no chance against an aggressive State armed to the teeth with police and military might. Thus the argument that we need the State because evil people exist is false. If evil people exist, the State must be dismantled, since evil people will be drawn to use its power for their own ends — and, unlike private thugs, evil people in government have the police and military to inflict their whims on a helpless (and usually disarmed!) population.

Logically, there are four possibilities as to the mixture of good and evil people in the world:

all men are moral
all men are immoral
the majority of men are moral, and a minority immoral
the majority of men are immoral, and a minority moral

(A perfect balance of good and evil is statistically impossible!)

In the first case (all men are moral), the State is obviously not needed, since evil cannot exist.

In the second case [....]
to the whole posting: http://www.lewrockwell.com/2005/11/stefan-molyneux/disproving-the-state-four-arguments-against-government


Wenn es um die Auflösung des Staates geht, kommen oft zwei Argumente. Das Erste besteht darin, dass eine freie Gesellschaft nur möglich wäre, sofern alle Menschen gut sind.
Mit anderen Worten: Bürger brauchen also einen zentralisierten Staat, weil es böse Menschen auf der Welt gibt.

Das größte und offensichtlichste Problem mit dieser Position ist, dass, wenn böse Menschen im Staat existieren, sie folglich auch in der Regierung existieren werden und somit eine weitaus größere Gefahr darstellen.
Bürger sind in der Lage, sich gegen böse Individuen zu schützen, haben jedoch keine Chance gegen einen aggressiven Staat mit einer bis an die Zähne bewaffneten Polizei und Armee.
Folglich ist das Argument falsch, einen Staat zu brauchen, weil böse Menschen existieren.
Wenn böse Menschen existieren, muss der Staat demontiert werden, weil böse Menschen dessen Macht für sich selber nutzen werden; und im Gegensatz zu privaten Kriminellen haben böse Menschen in der Regierung die Polizei und das Militär zur Verfügung , um ihre Launen an einer hilflosen und hauptsächlich unbewaffneten Bevölkerung auszuleben.

Es kann vier Varianten von guten und bösen Menschen auf der Welt geben:

1. Alle Menschen sind gut;

2. Alle Menschen sind böse;

3. Die Mehrheit der Menschen ist böse und eine Minderheit ist gut;

4. Die Mehrheit der Menschen ist gut und eine Minderheit ist böse.

(Eine perfekte Balance von Gut und Böse ist statistisch unmöglich)

1.

Im ersten Fall (alle Menschen sind gut) ist ein Staat offensichtlich unnötig, da das Böse nicht existiert.

2. [....]
zum ganzen beitrag: _http://www.freiwilligfrei.info/archives/115


- message to the voting cattle/ nachricht an das stimmvieh _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5FNDRgPOLs / _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_56Jv0J1dG8&feature=plcp

- scope and scale / die unvorstellbar große lüge _http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Opinion/118802-2012-09-15-scope-and-scale.htm / _http://www.freiwilligfrei.info/archives/4725
 
Re: What are you thinking about...

oh and shift/move it in another category when it´s wrong here :huh:
 
Re: What are you thinking about...

:welcome: Voluntarism!

Voluntarism said:
oh and I hope my english is good enough.. :-[

Your English is fine and no worries :).


Voluntarism said:
...Voluntarism, Larken Rose and so on? I´m interested in your opinion because I think it´s an important issue, also with regard to the issue of psychopathy. And please check out all these informations in an unbiased way (/ in a truly objective manner?) :)

What would be your personal take on these topics and in connection to psychopathy?


Voluntarism said:
- scope and scale / die unvorstellbar große lüge http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Opinion/118802-2012-09-15-scope-and-scale.htm / http://www.freiwilligfrei.info/archives/4725

FF do seem to make really decent work imo. And do you know if FF and free domain radio (Stefan Molyneux) are connected, cause the two logos do look very similar?
 
Re: What are you thinking about...


Being one who formerly thought anarchism might be a way to go, I've since come to think quite differently simply as a result of working with people for the past 30 years, more intensively for the past 20 or so.

I think that you need to read this article and really think about it.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
at first: thank you for your comments :)


What would be your personal take on these topics and in connection to psychopathy?

i think its one of the biggest lies from psychopaths that the we need governments ore that we need a force who rules about us. they want to convince us, that its right and good to exercise power about others but its not – it´s violence, its "sts" and it makes everything worse.

after all my inquiries i really think the best defence against those evil people is a voluntarism society. please look at my answer to laura – there are more details.

FF do seem to make really decent work imo. And do you know if FF and free domain radio (Stefan Molyneux) are connected, cause the two logos do look very similar?

FF is a german platform for voluntaristic issues. The owners translate many articles and videos, also from free domain radio. And political ponerology is not unknown. :)

Being one who formerly thought anarchism might be a way to go, I've since come to think quite differently simply as a result of working with people for the past 30 years, more intensively for the past 20 or so.

I think that you need to read this article and really think about it.

i read the article and I think about it, but I didn´t find an argument which really says that vonluntarism doesn´t work (I don´t like the term anarchism because many people think that means chaos, much more violence and so on – in fact this is a lie from the psychopathic – they don´t want to loose their power.).

yes, there are people who not have a mental structure, but how can that justify the subsistence of states? Voluntarism doesn´t means to replacing the old structures with nothing. It doesn´t means chaos ore something like that. :huh:

here´s another passage from the article „disproving the state - four arguments against government“ which can give one part of the answer:

The fourth option is that most people are good, and only a few are evil. This possibility is subject to the same problems outlined above, notably that evil people will always want to gain control over the State, in order to shield themselves from retaliation. This option changes the appearance of democracy, however: because the majority of people are good, evil power-seekers must lie to them in order to gain power, and then, after achieving public office, will immediately break faith and pursue their own corrupt agendas, enforcing their wills with the police and military. (This is the current situation in democracies, of course.) Thus the State remains the greatest prize to the most evil men, who will quickly gain control over its awesome power — and so the State cannot be permitted to exist in this scenario either.
It is clear, then, that there is no situation under which a State can logically be allowed to exist. The only possible justification for the existence of a State would be if the majority of men are evil, but all the power of the State is always and forever controlled by a minority of good men. This situation, while interesting theoretically, breaks down logically because:
[...]
Why is this error always made? There are a number of reasons, which can only be touched on here. The first is that the State introduces itself to children in the form of public school teachers who are considered moral authorities. Thus is the association of morality and authority with the State first made — which is reinforced through years of repetition. The second is that the State never teaches children about the root of its power — force — but instead pretends that it is just another social institution, like a business or a church or a charity. The third is that the prevalence of religion has always blinded men to the evils of the State — which is why the State has always been so interested in furthering the interests of churches.
[...]
It was mentioned at the beginning of this article that people generally make two errors when confronted with the idea of dissolving the State. The first is believing that the State is necessary because evil people exist. The second is the belief that, in the absence of a State, any social institutions which arise will inevitably take the place of the State. Thus, dispute resolution organizations (DRO's), insurance companies and private security forces are all considered potential cancers which will swell and overwhelm the body politic.
This view arises from the same error outlined above. If all social institutions are constantly trying to grow in power and enforce their wills on others, then by that very argument a centralized State cannot be allowed to exist. If it is an iron law that groups always try to gain power over other groups and individuals, then that power-lust will not end if one of them wins, but will spread across society until slavery is the norm. In other words, the only hope for individual freedom is for a proliferation of groups to exist, each with the power to harm each other, and so all afraid of each other, and more or less peaceable thereby.
It is very hard to understand the logic and intelligence of the argument that, in order to protect us from a group that might overpower us, we should support a group that has already overpowered us. It is similar to the statist argument regarding private monopolies — that citizens should create a State monopoly because they are afraid of monopolies. It does not take a keen vision to see through such nonsense.

[...]


and in fact the creating and using from the judicial system is not a part of the definition from states. judical systems has arisen through private initiatives and also the using was regulated privately (as example the english common law).

Please check out the information on this short video: definition of "the state": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTRIjUgqip4

in german: das ding namens „staat" - rechtssysteme entstanden privat : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od4lIJzpVZg&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PL1F79A3BDACABDADC


another example is ancient ireland as a stateless society (look at page 3 + 4): http://www.freiwilligfrei.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/stateless-societies-ancient-ireland.pdf

in german: voluntarismus in der geschichte? beispiel irland: http://www.freiwilligfrei.info/archives/75


and it´s another big fat lie that the root for iniquities is caused by concerns.
a free market is not a threat – it has never existed. in fact governments cause monopoles, price controls, bounties, bailouts, credit guarantees and so on. without the help from states most of the concerns would look old-fashioned. as example nuclear power would much more expensive then other forms of energy...
 
Hi Voluntarism, I also used to be an Anarchist as well, like Laura. Political Ponerology is usually the book we refer to most on here when we talk about politics. It was written by scientists who lived under the communist occupation of Poland, who developed their theory by studying the psychological disintegration of people and the corruption of the social order due to psychopaths and other psychologically deviant individuals.

I'm guess you'd classify yourself more as a right-wing anarchist, as opposed to left-anarchism most commonly associated with syndicalist and marxist ideologies? A lot of that philosophy, I think, originated from economists like Ludwig von Mises and others who had an incorrect understanding of human nature. Rather than being logical, rational self-interested agents, we are more similar to associative, empathic and pro-social agents, or at least most of us are.

Daniel Khanemans' work "Thinking: Fast and Slow" talks about how these recent psychological findings have helped shape economic thought and policy over these recent years. The fact that not all human beings have the same type of instinctive endowment (some of us are psychopaths, for instance) also tends to throw a monkey wrench into these hermetically-sealed systems of thought so many people advocate. Diversity in the instinctive endowment of people (some of us are psychopaths or authoritarians, for instance) is something too few political and social models seem to integrate well into their philosophy.

Anyway, happy exploring, and welcome!
 
Voluntarism said:
...Voluntarism, Larken Rose and so on? I´m interested in your opinion because I think it´s an important issue, also with regard to the issue of psychopathy. And please check out all these informations in an unbiased way (/ in a truly objective manner?)

I did the research years ago so I'm familiar with what you're talking about. I think you will discover that a lot more people are aware of the statist illusions than you will see evidence of, and for a simple reason. The "state" is indeed an illusion, people do indeed "pretend" and the tendency to use "force" does seem to be, in practice, the root of their confidence in their beliefs.

So, I have a question...

Since all political, religious, state and other institutions are composed of individuals and individuals are composed of a wide variety of pathologies and some of these pathologies drive the harmful aspects of their behaviors towards others regardless of context, is it really only ever necessary to address anything but the pathologies?

If any pathological behaviors can be 'solved', wouldn't derivative problems also be solved? Another way to ask the question is that if the "State" and all its rationalizations for existing are illusions, then what, in concrete terms, is there to fight?

I think that's why people spend so much time studying and trying to understand human psychology - from the basic stuff to psychopathology - because that's where harmful behaviors towards others originate, and it would be better to address a problem at its root than spend all one's energy fighting symptoms, OSIT. In the meantime, there's nothing saying you can't use what freewill you may have in order to help and support other people without using government services. Sort of like being a "Voluntarist" without the identifying label.

You asked for opinions, and there's mine. I'm glad you're starting to see through some of the lies that infect humanity, although I'm aware of how painful an experience that can be.

Voluntarism said:
I do not know whether to laugh or to cry :lol: :cry:

...

I know the feeling.
 
Buddy said:
Since all political, religious, state and other institutions are composed of individuals and individuals are composed of a wide variety of pathologies and some of these pathologies drive the harmful aspects of their behaviors towards others regardless of context, is it really only ever necessary to address anything but the pathologies?

If any pathological behaviors can be 'solved', wouldn't derivative problems also be solved?

I think that is a very good point, but the issue of the best organization of people is not that black and white. I agree that addressing the pathologies is the number one priority, however until that happens to a sufficient degree it is still necessary to find the best possible form of government under the current circumstances.
 
Imo people would need to understand psychopathology (Ponerology) as it was suggested, cause otherwise there will be always the danger that groups get infiltrated again by pathologicals and then the in the beginning really great ideology gets twisted and lost. For example the ongoing trucker strike in the USA, also when they are not a state system or philosophy, trying to protest against the corrupt american system and standing up for their rights, soon got infiltrated by government agents or same ones showed up to denounce them.
 
I've been reading/listening to Larken Rose recently, and I think his points about authoritarianism and the fallacy of the "social contract" theory of government are pretty valid. Though, I think he misses the mark by a wide margin when discussing the actual, objective, current state of society. This voluntarist society is not even remotely possible (IMO) with people's current psychological makeup.

You may have a few rural communities that could implement voluntarism and make it work, but with the current systems of centralized cities, food distribution, currency, etc, there's no way.

I think you'll find, if you ask around, that people like to talk about determining their own destinies, but when it comes down to it, they WANT authority because they don't want to deal with the responsibility of being their own authority. And, well, good luck de-programming that one.
 
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