legal question

[Gonzo]

Unfortunately, when collection agencies get involved, one is now dealing with even darker forces. They aren't interested in hearing explanation, they want their money, especially if they paid for the account. These buggers will try to do all sorts of nasty things, including messing with your credit rating.

I feel it is best to try to solve the problem before it goes that far. Getting a lawyer involved is costly though, but their might be consumer protection agencies you can use. As well, many regions have something like a better business bureau, where you can lodge complaints against unfair practices. The complaint, if not resolved, becomes part of the public record. So, it might be a good idea to research consumer protection for your area and then approach the tyrant with your terms, letting him know that if he is not interested in dealing with the situation in an honorable manner, he leaves you no choice but to file complaints with whatever consumer agency that might exist in your state, as well as a complaint to whoever governs healthcare there. In many jurisdictions, practitioners have to be certified and registered with a professional or government organization.

He might want to avoid the potential hassles.

In terms of contracts, some jurisdictions recognize verbal agreements as intent to enter into a contract. However, it seems to me you agreed in good faith but could not foresee financial difficulties that prevented you from continuing. Your fair offer to make up the difference between the reduced price and regular price further demonstrates good will. However, contract law can be tricky. You might be able to call a dial-a-lawyer service available through your local bar association for a fee-based consultation. Often these consultations are quite reasonably priced and will help you become more acquainted with your rights, responsibilities and chance for successful remedy.

I hope things work out for you. Keep us informed.

Gonzo

 

[SeekinTruth]

I never wanted to go this route.

It seems a good option to me since there was no possible solution with this individual, let's see how it goes

Yeah, I agree. He created this situation so that you are forced to go this route.

 

[Happyville]

I note that what may have been a verbal agreement to begin with was cleverly documented as soon as he sent you that correspondence. I assume you did not dispute or reject that correspondence formally - so in a common law sort of way you also agreed to what he sent to you. It acknowledges the original verbal contract so he can now rely on this at a minimum should should this end up in court!

Having said that, you did enter this agreement with him, and so that counts for something - those with a conscience, which it seems you have, cannot simply break an agreement willy nilly... If there is a problem with his service then that should be something that you should bring up with him in writing!

In my view, based on what you presented you will have to pay something to this guy based on your original agreement, which you will do directly by working it out with him, or indirectly through Court or Collections. If it goes to collections, and you are willing to do some work there are incredibly simple ways to deal with it, and I always prefer collections to court :

1. Look into your Collections Act legislation in your area ( and if you find the right provision - the collection calls will stop indefinitely )
2. Look into access to Privacy Act legislation in your area ( and if you find the right provision, and send the correct letters to the collections company - your may be able to get the collection agency to pay your bill for you - they nearly always break collections laws, but you need to know which laws they break and how to call them on it - if you do you have negotiation power with them )... Knowledge protects !!
3. Look into your Credit Reporting Act legislation in your area, and be proactive in reporting a dispute such as this to protect yourself! A dispute will stay on your credit record alerting others that there is a disagreement pending. Obviously if you have a dispute with ALL of your creditors then it will hurt your overall credit, but a single dispute is not that damaging - and shows others that the status of collection has been called into question and probably pending resolution!

 

[Mrs.Tigersoap]

This whole thing is just so outrageous! As a professional acupuncturist, he should know that anything can happen between two sessions (a reaction, a healing crisis, etc.) and you can NEVER predict what the health and body response of a client will be for a whole year! Typically, this sort of method is a 'as we go along' kind of method: you adapt the frequency with how the body is responding!

As someone using the meridians as well (although not with needles) in my job, I think it is just plain irresponsible and dangerous.

I'm not even mentioning that you don't propose that sort of deal in these days and times: anybody can suddenly be out of money, lose their job, etc. and not be able to fulfill the 'contract'. I use the ' ' because, honestly, if he was so sure this is an honest practice, why didn't he make you sign an agreement, or at least have some sort of card that he validates every time you go for an appointment.

This sort of binding oral contract allows him to do basically what he wants, then? He can even be rude to you, behave inappropriately and you would still be forced to go? That's just plain crazy.

That guy seems to be a crook.

It's bizarre, because a client of mine once complained that she would never again go to an acunpuncturist because the last one she had visited had just gone mental when she said she was stopping her treatment. It was not working for her and the acunpuncturist said: 'Do you know who I am? People are queuing up to come and see me! I'm the best acupuncturist there is! Like I need you!! Get out of here! '

Is it something they are taught at school??

 

[Gonzo]

It makes me wonder if this is bordering on fraud. Since the practitioner is treating an ailment and claiming x amount of sessions is required, they are, in fact, stating that it takes x amount of treatments to cure the ailment. Upon what evidence is this person making such a claim? Considering the potential for external influences, not to mention the idiosyncrasies of each body, I would think it is impossible to say how many treatments would be required for certain conditions.

A more methodological approach would be to assess and adjust the regime as one goes along. Treatment should be goal focused with and end date to when one should abandon the course of action and try a different treatment strategy.

What a snake oil salesman. Of course, chiropractors who say one needs to come regularly for the rest of their lives for maintenance fall into a similar category.

Gonzo

 

[Mrs. Peel]

What a snake oil salesman. Of course, chiropractors who say one needs to come regularly for the rest of their lives for maintenance fall into a similar category.

Gonzo

I'm not agreeing with you on this last statement. Why would you think the body is different that say a car, which DOES need maintained for the rest of its life. I have a bad disk in my neck and some spinal scoliosis, and I DO and will see a chiropractor regularly in the future, to have it monitored. Bad posture, slips and falls, small accidents, etc., may alter one's alignment, and I see nothing "fishy" in going to a good chiro periodically to make sure everything is balanced.

I mean, to me it's like having an eye exam, or a dental checkup...

 

[1984]

What a snake oil salesman. Of course, chiropractors who say one needs to come regularly for the rest of their lives for maintenance fall into a similar category.

Gonzo

I'm not agreeing with you on this last statement. Why would you think the body is different that say a car, which DOES need maintained for the rest of its life. I have a bad disk in my neck and some spinal scoliosis, and I DO and will see a chiropractor regularly in the future, to have it monitored. Bad posture, slips and falls, small accidents, etc., may alter one's alignment, and I see nothing "fishy" in going to a good chiro periodically to make sure everything is balanced.

I mean, to me it's like having an eye exam, or a dental checkup...

I agree, Mrs. Peel. Regular chiropractic maintenance can do any 'body' good. The main point is to look out for snake oil salesmen/women, period - and that can be in any field: MD's, chiropractors, naturopaths, herbologists, etc.

 

[Gonzo]

When one is sold the concept of maintenance, and this is based on solely my own experience with 3 different chiros, the reason stated is that the body requires regular adjustments due to the effects of life.

While I accept that we live in a toxic environment, many of us are out of shape and have poor diets, the thought that something is wrong with creation to the point that the body requires regular undoing seems a bit insulting to creation.

Now this might make sense for specific situations, but to apply the same logic to all humans, from babies to senior citizens, regardless of their level of physical and mental health, seems a little disingenuous.

It is the blanket assumption that all humans are defective and require adjustments that I take issue with. However, I am certainly open to other opinions on this matter.

Gonzo

 

[Z...]

I never wanted to go this route.

I am glad you did. Perhaps this will stop his malpractice. This is so wrong on so many levels, and as Mrs. Tigersoap pointed out it can be dangerous for your health.

There is nothing more outrageous then a greedy bully disguised as healer, I hope he gets what he deserves.

 

[1984]

When one is sold the concept of maintenance, and this is based on solely my own experience with 3 different chiros, the reason stated is that the body requires regular adjustments due to the effects of life.

This chiropractic discussion is moving off-topic, so if need be we can create another thread to further your comments re: chiropractic.

 

[Oxajil]

Re: legal question

While I accept that we live in a toxic environment, many of us are out of shape and have poor diets, the thought that something is wrong with creation to the point that the body requires regular undoing seems a bit insulting to creation.

Even if you were not in a toxic environment, with no toxicity as we know of it today, the world will still be full of traps and dangers. In other words: how many people would be able to live day in and day out perfectly? As in, enough movement just as not to stress the body, enough sleep to recharge the body, great food as to not harm the body etc? Even in a non-toxic world, that probably wouldn't be the case, maybe for some time, but troubles are always coming, it would be only natural. So you see, harm on the body/mind is inevitable, whether it is small or large.

And the good thing about a community is that different people can take up different professions, because it is nearly impossible for one person to conceive all the knowledge of all important professions. It's a give and take thing. It doesn't mean one can't be his/her own doctor in some things, so to speak, that's certainly possible as long as one is acting with knowledge and not with ignorance. Now in this world, the same give-and-take thing applies, but as we can see, there are some rotten apples among the bunch, but one cannot always tar everyone with the same brush. There are some people who enjoy practicing what they've learned and do their job professionally and effective.

So the main point, IMO, is that we need one another, and this does not necessarily imply that we are ''defective'' nor do I see it as an ''insult to creation'', it simply is the way it is, and one can view it in any way one wants, but that remains subjective. Fwiw.

 

[webglider]

quote from Happyville:

I note that what may have been a verbal agreement to begin with was cleverly documented as soon as he sent you that correspondence. I assume you did not dispute or reject that correspondence formally - so in a common law sort of way you also agreed to what he sent to you. It acknowledges the original verbal contract so he can now rely on this at a minimum should should this end up in court!

Having said that, you did enter this agreement with him, and so that counts for something - those with a conscience, which it seems you have, cannot simply break an agreement willy nilly... If there is a problem with his service then that should be something that you should bring up with him in writing!

I'm choosing to view this whole situation as a learning experience. I was stupid and allowed the situation to happen by not asking questions such as "Is there a penalty for early termination?" I did give him a condition at the time we made the agreement which would cause me to break the oral contract. He didn't look happy, but he didn't say anything. Now that I think of it, don't contracts usually state penalties for backing out of the them? I didn't think of that then though.

I have no issue with his work. He was a good acupuncturist as far as I can tell. The issue for me is financial due a major life change I am considering in the near future that would be very expensive.

Even so, I was willing to stay with him if I could have negotiated a different plan. What I find intolerable - when he did show me his plan- is the way he manipulated the numbers to force me to stay with him. This was, to use Guardian's words, really creepy. We did not discuss a plan together like how much I could afford or what would be comfortable for me. Nor did he show any empathy or understanding for the reason for my decision. I rejected his offer on the grounds of the kind of human being he revealed himself to be
not because he was a bad acupuncturist.

quote from Mrs. Tigersoap

This sort of binding oral contract allows him to do basically what he wants, then? He can even be rude to you, behave inappropriately and you would still be forced to go? That's just plain crazy.

I don't know. That's why I did not answer his email as I didn't want to say anything else that might give him an edge over me. I don't think I'll be forced to go - I'll be forced to pay because I won't go.

I researched whether an oral contract could be broken if the patient no longer wants to stay with a doctor. I could find nothing that addressed that question. I did however find that doctors could break a contract with their patients under certain conditions. Maybe the reverse is also true - that patients have the right to discontinue receiving treatment if they no longer want it.

All these comments have been invaluable in keeping up my morale. Thank you!

The good thing is that you will know not to make the same mistake. Knowledge Protects!

 

[Happyville]

GONZO: A more methodological approach would be to assess and adjust the regime as one goes along. Treatment should be goal focused with and end date to when one should abandon the course of action and try a different treatment strategy.

Hi Gonzo... I think you are confusing the issue and shifting the blame !

WEBGLIDER : Last summer I made a verbal agreement with an acupuncturist that I would sign up for a year of treatments in exchange for reduced rates.

It seems that Webglider, was focused and willing to a making a long term commitment in exchange for a reduced rate for the service offered which is a pretty normal business deal and happens every day, volume discounts... ect!

I would hope that BEFORE buying a year's worth of a service the buyer would have tried the service and known what he was signing up for, although this is an assumption based on what I would do BEFORE committing to a long term contract. Acupuncture as Snake oil ? I think many would debate you on that, but I wholeheartedly agree you - i'd never sign up for it personally, but that does not mean others don't believe it helps them and I am sure it does!

Lets not treat Webglider like a defenseless child here, he seems a pretty sharp part of our forum, so lets assume he'd done his research about the service / procedures that he signed up for, as I read his post this was an issue about money, which I completely understand!

The question here is about the rule of law... There is a dispute and both parties need to come away from this with a fair and equitable resolution!

 

[Happyville]

That's why I did not answer his email as I didn't want to say anything else that might give him an edge over me. I don't think I'll be forced to go - I'll be forced to pay because I won't go.

Hey Weglider, absolutely answer his email, if you don't then it means you agree with him and what he has wrote. Answer him and advise him in writing your concerns as you shared with us, point out any errors in your understanding of the verbal contract and make him a counter offer on what you think is fair!

If you keep up the correspondence with him I am positive you guys can work this out fairly :)

 

[anart]

If you keep up the correspondence with him I am positive you guys can work this out fairly :)

I don't see any indication from what this acupuncturist has written to indicate that he's at all interested in working anything out 'fairly'. All I see is a bully who is trying to extort funds and I think reporting him and getting legal counsel is much smarter route to take.