legal question

[Happyville]

I don't see any indication from what this acupuncturist has written to indicate that he's at all interested in working anything out 'fairly'. All I see is a bully who is trying to extort funds and I think reporting him and getting legal counsel is much smarter route to take.

Yes of course you have not seen any indication...

That's why I did not answer his email as I didn't want to say anything else that might give him an edge over me. I don't think I'll be forced to go - I'll be forced to pay because I won't go.

Webglider has not answered back yet. How can one work something out if one does not communicate?

Why is it that you think council is the correct choice at this point?

Do you not believe that human beings can work things out between themselves first?

On the other hand the system does encourage your type of advise... The legal profession depends on it :)

 

[anart]

Happyville, re-read the man's email. Do you think it even approaches anything that is even remotely fair or reasonable? It is pathological. What you are suggesting is that one try to compromise with pathology. That only makes one food - period. Your consistent desire to argue for argument's sake gets very tiresome.

 

[Happyville]

Happyville, re-read the man's email. Do you think it even approaches anything that is even remotely fair or reasonable? It is pathological. What you are suggesting is that one try to compromise with pathology. That only makes one food - period. Your consistent desire to argue for argument's sake gets very tiresome.

It seems that in your world, pathological is subjective and based on your opinions not on evidence. Me on the other hand, as you have charged, am suffering from a mental condition because I drink drank raw milk, so I can take that as a possibility !

Lets assume for a moment that Webglider is NOT dealing with a pathological... ( i know this is hard for you, but lets give the edge for a moment to the guy who is not breaking his contract ) Lets try to see my comments not as an argument - but rather as a shared experience on how to deal with a dispute with another human being with-out escalating it un-necessarily! Why go to war if there are peaceful alternatives?

Sometimes there is no other choice then to get a lawyer and expand the dispute... This time however I think that at least some written response back to the acupuncturist may prove fruitful, and there is no harm at all in communicating with the other side in order to resolve a conflict - that's what the rule of law is all about.

Conflict is normal amongst people - it is not evidence of pathology. How one deals with conflict may evidence pathology more clearly I suspect !

Edited to correct past / present tense !

 

[anart]

Happyville, re-read the man's email. Do you think it even approaches anything that is even remotely fair or reasonable? It is pathological. What you are suggesting is that one try to compromise with pathology. That only makes one food - period. Your consistent desire to argue for argument's sake gets very tiresome.

It seems that in your world, pathological is subjective and based on your opinions not on evidence.

Nope, it's based on actions versus words. For instance, you exhibit pathological persistence in your thinking about several topics, raw milk being one of them. That doesn't mean you are necessarily pathological, but it does mean that you exhibit pathological behavior. This 'healer' exhibits pathological behavior in his extortion letter (that is what it is) - his actions are what count and they speak clearly. There may be many reasons for that, but the point is the action.

Me on the other hand, as you have charged, am suffering from a mental condition because I drink drank raw milk, so I can take that as a possibility !

Actually, it is the content of your posts that strongly indicates that you engage, quite regularly, in selection and substitution of data to keep yourself comfortable in your own current understanding. In other words, you consistently miss the crux of the matter due to blind spots and deficient thinking that, evidence has shown, can be caused by ingestion of dairy products for people susceptible to such things. It can also be caused by many other factors, so there is not enough data to tell at this point why you engage in selection and substitution and consistently miss the crux of the matter in many different discussions, yet the fact remains that you do.

If you were sincere about actually looking at yourself and your mentation, then this condition might be remedied with Work and effort, but there is little evidence of that sincerity at this point in time.

Lets assume for a moment that Webglider is NOT dealing with a pathological... ( i know this is hard for you, but lets give the edge for a moment to the guy who is not breaking his contract ) Lets try to see my comments not as an argument

No thank you, I endeavor to not assume at all. I tend to focus on available facts - in this case, the letter and his actions are facts. What you are doing is critically correcting and filling in the blanks. That tends to lead one deeply into illusion and solves nothing.

- but rather as a shared experience on how to deal with a dispute with another human being with-out escalating it un-necessarily! Why go to war if there are peaceful alternatives?

Fascinating - you're selecting and substituting again. Did you not notice that if anyone is at war it is the 'healer'? His was the attack - perhaps if you would actually read his words as written and not through your subjective lens that would be more clear.

Sometimes there is no other choice then to get a lawyer and expand the dispute... This time however I think that at least some written response back to the acupuncturist may prove fruitful, and there is no harm at all in communicating with the other side in order to resolve a conflict - that's what the rule of law is all about.

Conflict is normal amongst people - it is not evidence of pathology. How one deals with conflict may evidence pathology more clearly I suspect !

It never ceases to amaze me how you can spin off into pure conjecture in order to support your 'argument' (your illusions). I would also like to make it very clear that your subtle digs and suggestions about me in this post are very clear and remind you to re-read the forum guidelines regarding being respectful to moderators on this board. If you can't abide by these guidelines, then it is time for you to find a forum on which you are more comfortable.

 

[Finduilas495]

This whole thing is just so outrageous! As a professional acupuncturist, he should know that anything can happen between two sessions (a reaction, a healing crisis, etc.) and you can NEVER predict what the health and body response of a client will be for a whole year! Typically, this sort of method is a 'as we go along' kind of method: you adapt the frequency with how the body is responding!

As someone using the meridians as well (although not with needles) in my job, I think it is just plain irresponsible and dangerous.

I'm not even mentioning that you don't propose that sort of deal in these days and times: anybody can suddenly be out of money, lose their job, etc. and not be able to fulfill the 'contract'. I use the ' ' because, honestly, if he was so sure this is an honest practice, why didn't he make you sign an agreement, or at least have some sort of card that he validates every time you go for an appointment.

This sort of binding oral contract allows him to do basically what he wants, then? He can even be rude to you, behave inappropriately and you would still be forced to go? That's just plain crazy.

That guy seems to be a crook.

It's bizarre, because a client of mine once complained that she would never again go to an acunpuncturist because the last one she had visited had just gone mental when she said she was stopping her treatment. It was not working for her and the acunpuncturist said: 'Do you know who I am? People are queuing up to come and see me! I'm the best acupuncturist there is! Like I need you!! Get out of here! '

Is it something they are taught at school??

When reading the part in bold, it occurred to me that you weren't asked to sign a contract because it would be considered immoral and would therefore be null and void anyways. The email makes this impression stronger.

A car dealer tried to pull a similar stunt on me a few years ago. The financing hadn't worked out the way they promised, and in my country this invalidates the contract. When I backed out accordingly, I was told I had to pay a penalty that amounted to 10% of the sales price of the car. I demanded to speak to the sales person's supervisor, who said if I signed that I was willing to purchase a car at the same value in the near future, they would not charge the penalty. So I contacted the local consumer protection agency, and one of their lawyers dictated me a letter to send to the car dealer. Needless to say, I never heard from them again. I bought my car elsewhere.

If it were me, I wouldn't engage in a discussion with the 'healer' either. If there is an authority protecting you from this kind of fraud, all the better. Best wishes and hope it'll be sorted soon.

 

[Happyville]

Fascinating - you're selecting and substituting again. Did you not notice that if anyone is at war it is the 'healer'? His was the attack - perhaps if you would actually read his words as written and not through your subjective lens that would be more clear.

His Attack?

1. His client is backing out of a deal !

2. He sent a written offer to settle !

3. Webglider - did not like the offer, but rather than communicate, counter offer or correct the record he did nothing - that is NOT cool !

Negotiation is a part of life. In my view the acupuncturist high balled and never received a response? Is high-balling a pathological trait... I spend a lot of time in countries where you have to negotiate for everything... Perhaps the western mentality of either accepting or rejecting has made us much more fearful of negotiating. My suggestion is simply to communicate with the guy? Saying nothing and getting upset about it is passive aggressive, and does nothing to solve the issue! Your suggestion to get a lawyer rather than communicate and work it out with the guy misses 2 important "cruxes" to use your term!

NUMBER 1 CRUX - Webglider is backing out of the contract because money is an issue, so a very important consideration here is should he spend MORE money on a lawyer to settle this simple issue. Who wins if Webglider losses in court, and then has to pay the acupuncturist and then the lawyer for a double whammy?

NUMBER 2 CRUX - Communication is key in a dispute, when it breaks down THEN it time for courts and lawyers get involved. The rule of law states that conflict should and can be avoided through mutual agreement - when 2 parties fail to agree ONLY then should it be taken higher. Webglider has not attempted to counter the offer in writing so there are still steps that could be productive - before a lawyer need be involved.

... In nature a rattle snake rattles before he bites, he'd prefer that a bite be the resolution of last resort, and in this case I feel the same... If you think the best opinion is to go ahead and bite and because you are the moderator I will cede and endorse you in keeping with the forum rules... I am sorry if you thought I was disrespectful :(

 

[Finduilas495]

What is there to communicate? The 'healer' tried to pull a fast one, and webglider filed a complaint with the authorities. That is absolutely correct IMO. No point in wasting money or energy trying to communicate with someone who is trying to take advantage.

 

[Maat]

His Attack?

1. His client is backing out of a deal !

My god, it's not a maintenance contract !
First of all, I don't even understand how a healer can propose that sort of things, that's just the evidence that money was HIS priority

 

[Muxel]

I'm agreeing with Gonzo on this.

While I accept that we live in a toxic environment, many of us are out of shape and have poor diets, the thought that something is wrong with creation to the point that the body requires regular undoing seems a bit insulting to creation.

Acupuncture treatment plans solely defined by cost/duration mirrors modern healthcare, no? If something is wrong, fix it in one go. Treatment dependency means the problem persists and has not been sincerely "treated".

Mrs. Peel, I do not fancy the car-body analogy. The body is a perfect microcosm equipped with homeostasis. The car (a sacrilegious attempt to mimic motile "life" using first density material, to create outwardly what is lacking within) is the epitome of entropy (from mint, everything goes downhill— compliments of "planned obsolescence" or just bad design).

Happyville, you made a good point about communication and the money issue. But, the finality of the message webglider received means communication has already broken down. Previous posters also noted that for an ostensible healer-type to act like this = creepy. Thus webglider had to sever ties immediately.

 

[anart]

I am sorry if you thought I was disrespectful :(

You are disrespectful and you have completely missed the crux of this conversation and situation.

 

[go2]

Thank you for contacting me earlier today. I have spoken to _____ and we have come up with 2 options.

1. Come into the office and catch-up with your late payments (TOTAL: $916.66)
Then continue care as you choose. You have 75 treatments left, which have to be used by 6/30/2012.

2. Total payment to get out of the contract
$625-- total cost per treatment of already used treatments (difference)
$550-- 10% penalty breech-of-contract
$916.66-- 2month late payment
_______________________
TOTAL: $2,091.66
You can make 2 payment of $1,045.83.
First payment due immediately, 2nd payment due 30 days later.
Please make check payable too: X

By opting out of your family yearly plan you are saving: $1,575.02

We hope you choose to continue your care by choosing option 1--in this respect everyone benefits.
Please respond to this email before the end of the business day.

The email is a first offer toward a negotiated settlement of a breached contract for services. The expected response to such an offer is a counter offer, perhaps with an apology for the inconvenience and the wish to resolve the tort without recourse to legal or other action. If it were me, I would offer $625 with the explanation that I am unable to continue treatments or pay more due to my financial situation.

The doctor will be reimbursed a percentage of the outstanding bill by a collection agency. The doctor will probably accept an offer less than or equal to his recovery from the collection agency. It would be interesting to examine further communication with the acupuncturist, to verify whether he is pathological or just following business 101 of any professional education. Whether the medical profession's business ethics are pathological is certainly a matter of debate. I think we deal with pathology every day we are on this planet and how we negotiate this passage is part of the lessons we are here to learn.

 

[Happyville]

You are disrespectful

Hi Anart, since you feel disrespected let me sincerely apologize to you! Can you tell me what it is that make's you feel respected so that I may consider this when responding? I hope always to apply the golden rule to situations !

Also, if you could respond plainly and clearly it may help. Gurjief has not been high on my priority reading list - so sometimes I think you respond in terminology that is quite specific, confusing, or simply goes over my head! My Grandmother used to say if you can say it with big words and not with small ones, your probably trying to sell something... lol... That said the law is much higher on my priority list so tends to be an area that I focus on, and try to keep my comments plain spoken!

you have completely missed the crux of this conversation and situation.

I must have seen a different crux what specifically and plainly did you see as the crux?

 

[Happyville]

The email is a first offer toward a negotiated settlement of a breached contract for services. The expected response to such an offer is a counter offer, perhaps with an apology for the inconvenience and the wish to resolve the tort without recourse to legal or other action. If it were me, I would offer $625 with the explanation that I am unable to continue treatments or pay more due to my financial situation.

The doctor will be reimbursed a percentage of the outstanding bill by a collection agency. The doctor will probably accept an offer less than or equal to his recovery from the collection agency. It would be interesting to examine further communication with the acupuncturist, to verify whether he is pathological or just following business 101 of any professional education. Whether the medical profession's business ethics are pathological is certainly a matter of debate. I think we deal with pathology every day we are on this planet and how we negotiate this passage is part of the lessons we are here to learn.

THANK - YOU GO2!!! This is what I was trying unsuccessfully to get at !

 

[Happyville]

Fascinating - you're selecting and substituting again. Did you not notice that if anyone is at war it is the 'healer'? His was the attack - perhaps if you would actually read his words as written and not through your subjective lens that would be more clear.

Hi Annart, I was looking at this critically again trying to figure out what you are trying to say... when you say "selecting and substituting" does that mean using an analogy? If so then I totally see what you are saying and I use them quite frequently as a way to understand and explain concepts !

 

[Beau]

You are disrespectful

Hi Anart, since you feel disrespected let me sincerely apologize to you! Can you tell me what it is that make's you feel respected so that I may consider this when responding? I hope always to apply the golden rule to situations !

Um, seriously? You're asking for someone to help you understand how to be respectful? I can't help but think that is a totally preposterous question. So disingenuous that it, in itself, could be another iteration of you disrespecting a moderator. You're not gonna be around here much longer if you keep this up! If you do try to follow the golden rule, then I just have to wonder, why it is you wish to be treated in such a disrespectful manner that you have conducted yourself. My feeling is that you are failing miserably in applying the golden rule in your interactions here, if in fact that is how you sincerely intend to be. But, I seriously doubt that's what you're trying to do.

Also, if you could respond plainly and clearly it may help. Gurjief has not been high on my priority reading list - so sometimes I think you respond in terminology that is quite specific, confusing, or simply goes over my head! My Grandmother used to say if you can say it with big words and not with small ones, your probably trying to sell something... lol... That said the law is much higher on my priority list so tends to be an area that I focus on, and try to keep my comments plain spoken!

If you could be specific about when and where you are confused about terminology, then elaboration and clarification can take place. If you don't speak up when you're confused or unsure, except to state vaguely like the above, then nothing can ever be done to help. So please, be specific when talking about confusing statements. It helps us help you.