legal question

[Beau]

Fascinating - you're selecting and substituting again. Did you not notice that if anyone is at war it is the 'healer'? His was the attack - perhaps if you would actually read his words as written and not through your subjective lens that would be more clear.

Hi Annart, I was looking at this critically again trying to figure out what you are trying to say... when you say "selecting and substituting" does that mean using an analogy?

No, selection and substitution is not that at all. Say you have 10 pieces of data. Selection and substitution would be taking 5 pieces of that data, forming a conclusion based on them, and eliminating the other 5 pieces because they don't fit your conclusion. Then you substitute the "bad data" with "good data" that was never a part of the original 10 pieces but which fits your conclusion. Do you see the problem with this kind of action?

 

[Mr. Premise]

Fascinating - you're selecting and substituting again. Did you not notice that if anyone is at war it is the 'healer'? His was the attack - perhaps if you would actually read his words as written and not through your subjective lens that would be more clear.

Hi Annart, I was looking at this critically again trying to figure out what you are trying to say... when you say "selecting and substituting" does that mean using an analogy? If so then I totally see what you are saying and I use them quite frequently as a way to understand and explain concepts !

No that's not what it means. It's from a passage in Political Ponerology which has been quoted a lot, see this http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,8379.msg306829.html#msg306829 for example:

During “good” times, the search for truth becomes uncomfortable because it reveals inconvenient factors. It is better to think about easier and more pleasant things. Unconscious elimination of data which are or appear to be inexpedient gradually turns to habit, then becomes a custom accepted by society at large. Any thought process based on such truncated information cannot possibly give rise to correct conclusions; it further leads to subconscious substitution of inconvenient premises by more convenient ones, thereby approaching the boundaries of phenomena which should be viewed as psychopathological.

And,

Information selection and substitution: Unconscious psychological processes outstrip conscious reasoning, both in time and in scope, which makes many psychological phenomena possible: including those generally described as conversive, such as subconscious blocking out of conclusions, the selection, and, also, substitution of seemingly uncomfortable premises.

 

[Happyville]

why it is you wish to be treated in such a disrespectful manner that you have conducted yourself.

If you could be specific about when and where I conducted myself in a disrespectful manor then elaboration and clarification and correction of behavior can take place.

No, selection and substitution is not that at all. Say you have 10 pieces of data. Selection and substitution would be taking 5 pieces of that data, forming a conclusion based on them, and eliminating the other 5 pieces because they don't fit your conclusion. Then you substitute the "bad data" with "good data" that was never a part of the original 10 pieces but which fits your conclusion. Do you see the problem with this kind of action?

Thanks very much, I understand now. Which data was thrown out and which was substituted?

In the law there are facts and then there is emotional charges and rationalizations ( which can be incredibly convincing and justifiable especially to ourselves ) ... The vilification of the "Healer", no matter how compelling and how much it may feel good - is not relevant in legal situations so it is rightly eliminated. The crux is the contract, the rule of law, and how easiest to solve a conflict which GO2 explained very well! If there is pathology involved that sucks but I did not see concrete evidence of this in what was presented. I saw an offer from one side and no communication on the other... In my view that puts the onus of responsibility back on Webglider to respond to the charge of breach of contract as he is holding the ball right now, not the healer!

 

[go2]

I got to thinking about this over lunch and realized most Americans never negotiate anything. They pay professionals to negotiate their lives for them. Lawyers negotiate contracts, doctors take care of our health, and the government protects us; so we never learn to take care of ourselves. I learned how to negotiate from a family of small businessmen, farmers, and craftsman.

The rough rule of thumb in paying and collecting is a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Will the acupuncturist take a $1000 today, or take the chance he may collect $2000 tomorrow from a client with financial difficulties? Most people have better things to do with their time and energy, than fighting over a few dollars more. The exceptions are corporations with a legal staff looking for work and people who value their pride and power more than decency.

The second rule of negotiation is to put your self in the other fellow’s shoes. Then you will begin to understand what it takes to resolve a dispute. Usually, it isn’t only money; but a sense of pride that must be satisfied in a contract dispute. People who understand human nature, know that pride is satisfied if a gesture is made. I hope this will help you understand and resolve this dilemma, webglider.

Oh… if this matter goes to small claims court, the judge will not look favorably on a defendant who did not make a good faith effort to resolve the dispute before taking up the judge’s valuable time. The defendant will pay hard money, to make the judge’s pride whole. :)

 

[Gonzo]

Hi Happyville,

You will encounter concepts and terminology on this forum that require a certain level of knowledge. As a participant in this forum, one needs to be versed in the requisite books, agree with the forum guidelines and, ultimately the goals and approaches of this forum.

Since this forum is designed along the lines of a Gurdjieffian 4th Way school, and incorporates aspects from various schools of thought, there is a requisite level of knowledge one needs to have to participate in a meaningful manner.

From time to time, you will encounter situations where your opinion is challenged. This is an opportunity for you to look inside yourself and open yourself to the possibility to see if you may have room to grow and change. There's no benefit to you from getting others to agree with you, but there is a lot to be gained by identifying your mechanical reactions and potentials for flawed thinking, be it the result of ego, emotional investment or other influences. It's not about being right, it's about eliminating the programs that run your thoughts and actions and growing your authentic self (to put it way too simply).

Without the requisite knowledge, it would be like someone with an elementary school education entering a university math class and asking the professor and classmates to help fill the knowledge gap.

Furthermore, there is a requirement to treat each other with respect and dignity, notwithstanding the selective and intentional use of button-pushing scratch tests used by senior members to reveal another member's wearing of a mask (often to either protect the forum from pathological and predatory types or to create the necessary heat to provoke a member who has been unsuccessful inititating change for themselves - at least that's how I understand it). The use of sarcasm, condescension and other subtle forms of social manipulation are considered disrespectful.

This thread seems to have touched on a sacred cow for you that has triggered an emotional response and absolute thinking (believe me, it takes one to know one) that is filtering your inputs, limiting your thoughts and preventing you from perceiving the wider context. This isn't the only thread I've noticed it on.

So, would it be possible for you to take inventory of what is going on inside you, physically, emotionally and mentally, so that you may observe and learn more about yourself?

Gonzo

 

[Gonzo]

I got to thinking about this over lunch and realized most Americans never negotiate anything. They pay professionals to negotiate their lives for them. Lawyers negotiate contracts, doctors take care of our health, and the government protects us; so we never learn to take care of ourselves. I learned how to negotiate from a family of small businessmen, farmers, and craftsman.

The rough rule of thumb in paying and collecting is “a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.” Will the acupuncturist take a $1000 today, or take the chance he may collect $2000 tomorrow from a client with financial difficulties? Most people have better things to do with their time and energy, than fighting over a few dollars more. The exceptions are corporations with a legal staff looking for work and people who value their pride and power more than decency.

The second rule of negotiation is to “put your self in the other fellow’s shoes.” Then you will begin to understand what it takes to resolve a dispute. Usually, it isn’t only money; but a sense of pride that must be satisfied in a contract dispute. People who understand human nature, know that pride is satisfied if a gesture is made. I hope this will help you understand and resolve this dilemma, webglider.

Oh… if this matter goes to small claims court, the judge will not look favorably on a defendant who did not make a good faith effort to resolve the dispute before taking up the judge’s valuable time. The defendant will pay hard money, to make the judge’s pride whole. :)

For what it's worth, I believe webglider initiated the negotiation by offering a penalty and, perhaps (not sure) to pay full price for services received. The "healer" responded with the ridiculous offer, which to some, would seem like negotiating in bad faith.

As well, this is healthcare, not the trading in commodities. Unfortunately, medicine, especially alternative therapies, often treat their services as if they were widgets, where they are cheaper by the dozen with no indication or bearing on what would result in a desired outcome. This, of course, is what makes this situation tricky, since it is hard to imagine an informed meeting of the minds, required to form a legitimate contract.

Gonzo

 

[go2]

I got to thinking about this over lunch and realized most Americans never negotiate anything. They pay professionals to negotiate their lives for them. Lawyers negotiate contracts, doctors take care of our health, and the government protects us; so we never learn to take care of ourselves. I learned how to negotiate from a family of small businessmen, farmers, and craftsman.

The rough rule of thumb in paying and collecting is “a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.” Will the acupuncturist take a $1000 today, or take the chance he may collect $2000 tomorrow from a client with financial difficulties? Most people have better things to do with their time and energy, than fighting over a few dollars more. The exceptions are corporations with a legal staff looking for work and people who value their pride and power more than decency.

The second rule of negotiation is to “put your self in the other fellow’s shoes.” Then you will begin to understand what it takes to resolve a dispute. Usually, it isn’t only money; but a sense of pride that must be satisfied in a contract dispute. People who understand human nature, know that pride is satisfied if a gesture is made. I hope this will help you understand and resolve this dilemma, webglider.

Oh… if this matter goes to small claims court, the judge will not look favorably on a defendant who did not make a good faith effort to resolve the dispute before taking up the judge’s valuable time. The defendant will pay hard money, to make the judge’s pride whole. :)

For what it's worth, I believe webglider initiated the negotiation by offering a penalty and, perhaps (not sure) to pay full price for services received. The "healer" responded with the ridiculous offer, which to some, would seem like negotiating in bad faith.

As well, this is healthcare, not the trading in commodities. Unfortunately, medicine, especially alternative therapies, often treat their services as if they were widgets, where they are cheaper by the dozen with no indication or bearing on what would result in a desired outcome. This, of course, is what makes this situation tricky, since it is hard to imagine an informed meeting of the minds, required to form a legitimate contract.

Gonzo

I wonder if she has a hard copy of her initial offer. It is important to establish a record of offer and counter offer. It certainly is possible the acupuncturist values power more than decency. All the more reason to establish a hard copy of the negotiation.

 

[Muxel]

Healer wants to collect $916.66 for the 2 months that webglider failed to show up. Healer can invoke equitable estoppel since webglider did not contact Healer to cancel appointments during that period.

The law is a dangerous thing to play with. Contracts are binding despite unforeseen circumstances. I witnessed this recently in a minor landlord-tenant disagreement. Tenant who wanted out early still had to pay rental for the remaining months as per lease signed. Otherwise landlord would've been bound by law to file a particularly nasty thing called Holdover Proceeding against tenant. Both parties were sweet and understanding people, but the law is the law.

I'm sorry go2, but empathy and negotiation are futile when a contract is broken.

Although Healer is extremely suspect, webglider's actions got himself/herself into this rut. For Healer's sake and yours, choose Option 2. Healer is allowing you out of the contract on his terms. Get it in legal writing, pay up, and never go back to Healer again like Laura advised. And in future steer clear of long-term contracts, whether verbal or black-and-white!

EDIT: Correction, Healer cannot invoke equitable estoppel since no regular hours were agreed upon. Choose Option 2 MINUS the $916.66 and get the State Office of Professional Regulation to make null and void this "late payment" crap.

 

[anart]

Happyville, we are using two different dictionaries. Perhaps Gonzo's and Heimdallr's posts can clarify things for you since my input seems to only confuse you further. Quite honestly, I do think that you would be much happier on another forum since after having an account here for 4 years, you are still wholly unaware of what it is we do here.

 

[Happyville]

notwithstanding the selective and intentional use of button-pushing scratch tests used by senior members to reveal another member's wearing of a mask (often to either protect the forum from pathological and predatory types or to create the necessary heat to provoke a member who has been unsuccessful inititating change for themselves - at least that's how I understand it)

Thanks for throwing me a bone Gonzo - this puts A LOT in to perspective regarding some of what I considered to be odd mod behavior on the site. - I don't treat people this way and find playing with people in the way you describe without their consent to be abhorrent and morally wrong! My initial thoughts were that the forum was about helping and discussing ( I actually thought it was all about the topic of the thread ) but your explanation certainly explains things... Very surprised by all of this but I will certainly bounce and find more constructive pursuits!

BTW... GO2... Thanks again for respectfully clarifying the subject for Webglider !

 

[Happyville]

you are still wholly unaware of what it is we do here.

For once I wholeheartedly agree !

 

[anart]

Thanks for throwing me a bone Gonzo - this puts A LOT in to perspective regarding some of what I considered to be odd mod behavior on the site. - I don't treat people this way and find playing with people in the way you describe without their consent to be abhorrent and morally wrong! My initial thoughts were that the forum was about helping and discussing ( I actually thought it was all about the topic of the thread ) but your explanation certainly explains things... Very surprised by all of this but I will certainly bounce and find more constructive pursuits! !

No one is 'playing with people' other than you, Happyville. Before posting further on this site, please at least read the works of G.I. Gurdjieff so you can begin to grasp some of the basic ideas on which this forum is based. When you have done that, let us know and we will reinstate your posting privileges.

 

[Guardian]

It's bizarre, because a client of mine once complained that she would never again go to an acunpuncturist because the last one she had visited had just gone mental when she said she was stopping her treatment. It was not working for her and the acunpuncturist said: 'Do you know who I am? People are queuing up to come and see me! I'm the best acupuncturist there is! Like I need you!! Get out of here! '

Is it something they are taught at school??

LOL I don't think so, but it does appear they get their fair share of mercenary sharks :O

To throw in a few positive words for acupuncturists. A couple years ago when I was moving, money was VERY tight, and my acupuncturist said "Pay me whenever you can" I was VERY grateful, because I needed her services more than ever since I was moving...very heavy things.

She also gives me a discounted rate because I am "self pay" (no insurance paperwork) and regularly fixes my "computer neck" :)

 

[Guardian]

The email is a first offer toward a negotiated settlement of a breached contract for services.

So where is the Contract? Clearly there was "no meeting of the minds" if the issue of early termination (for whatever cause) was never discussed?

If you want to look at this like our bodies are no different than our cars, fine. I don't agree with you, because my body is much harder to get out of than my car...but for the sake of discussion, if I were to enter into a maintenance agreement on my car, it would:
a) be required by state law to be in writing
b) contain a early termination clause which states exactly what I am financially responsible for should I sell or wreck the vehicle.

At best, there was an oral agreement that never addressed the issue. Most states REQUIRE that all business contracts be in writing to be enforceable anyway. While oral agreements between individuals can occasionally be enforced, there is generally a burden upon businesses to document financial contracts. Depending upon the state, the contract may even require notarization.

Webglider made a "good faith" offer to cover the difference between the discounted rate and the regular rate for the sessions he did receive. Legally, I don't believe he could be forced to even do this, due to the lack of a signed contract...but he offered what was fair under the circumstances anyway.

In return, he got a bullygram from Dr. Jekyll. At this point, if it was me, I'd tell Dr. Jekyll where he could put his needles.

 

[Beau]

why it is you wish to be treated in such a disrespectful manner that you have conducted yourself.

If you could be specific about when and where I conducted myself in a disrespectful manor then elaboration and clarification and correction of behavior can take place.

That would be the following:

I don't see any indication from what this acupuncturist has written to indicate that he's at all interested in working anything out 'fairly'. All I see is a bully who is trying to extort funds and I think reporting him and getting legal counsel is much smarter route to take.

Yes of course you have not seen any indication...

That's a rather clear put down. You might as well have put an eyeroll emoticon after that statement. It's dripping with sarcasm. That's just the beginning, unfortunately.

On the other hand the system does encourage your type of advise... The legal profession depends on it.

Here you are plainly saying that the advise given by anart is not only wrong, but will lead to financial loss for webglider. There is no reason to think that is true in the context of the discussion and is, for all intents and purposes, pure hyperbole.

It seems that in your world, pathological is subjective and based on your opinions not on evidence. Me on the other hand, as you have charged, am suffering from a mental condition because I drink drank raw milk, so I can take that as a possibility !

Again, a rather clear put down and totally missing the point behind the discussion - that the person who wrote that email to webglider was acting pathological. That is evidence!! Then you go ahead and divert the discussion to bring up the grudge that you are still holding against this forum. And again, you resort to hyperbole (they think I'm crazy!!) to really drive home your point about being unfairly treated.

Lets assume for a moment that Webglider is NOT dealing with a pathological...( i know this is hard for you, but lets give the edge for a moment to the guy who is not breaking his contract )

Not that is should need pointing out, but this right here is an example of you breaking forum rules. "I know this is hard for you" is a subtle dig in many respects, but one we've seen here over and over again. For some reason you seem to think that people on this forum just up and assume everyone is pathological. And because of that perception, you then feel fit to "talk above" anart in a professorial tone by stating something that you think hasn't occurred to her. You're not the teacher here though. Your admitted ignorance of Gurdjieff and his work is proof of that.

Conflict is normal amongst people - it is not evidence of pathology. How one deals with conflict may evidence pathology more clearly I suspect !

The problem is that their is conflict at all. A normal person would allow webglider to opt of our their verbal agreement. That is not what happened here, and despite what any law says (we know how well the 'paths have used law as a way to gain advantages in this world) the way this individual went about dealing with webglider's REQUEST was anything but normal. The conflict did not occur UNTIL her practitioner decided to fight what should have been a mundane parting of the ways. So, you're right that how one deals with conflict shows their inner nature, and the practitioner through his actions has done just that. Yet, you continue to defend the pathological reaction as normal. Talk about selection and substitution of data! Sheesh!

If you still haven't seen how you have missed the crux of the situation through methods we have seen numerous times, I would suggest re-reading anart's post here - http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,26120.msg312267.html#msg312267 - as it also details the ways that you have been lead astray. Those ways go beyond what you have written in this thread alone and if you need further elucidation, then beginning a true introduction to the Fourth Way Work would be the way to begin. Suffice to say, your lack of knowledge and information in that area is seriously hampering your interactions on this forum. Re-reading the forum guidelines alone should make this point abundantly clear. If you wish to go beyond that and actually study that which we have used as the foundation for this forum, recommendations can and will be made. For now, you need to take the time away from posting to read and think about all you have written here and how it's been received.