Leif Erlingsson's Post Mormon Cult

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The following post appeared in this forum as a seemingly "innocent" attempt at networking. The reader will also note that the poster later added a note that reflects some sort of "shift" in attitude. None of this is as simple as the poster presents it, since there was a great deal behind not only this initial post, but the later events that played out in respect of it which only came out bit by bit. In the end, it proves to be a very good example of the covert and egotistic maneuvers of an online predator who says one thing but means something exactly opposite.
Slightly less than a year ago, as a result of my attempts at decoding a reality causing the Iraq War and 911, my copy of "911 The Ultimate Truth" arrived in my mail. This was my first interaction with esoterica. And what a wakeup. Anyway, my blog has links to Signs of the Times, Quantum Future Group Bookstore, the Ponerology: The Science of Evil blog, etc. My blog is more directed at an Swedish audience not quite as esoteric, so while I've pushed for the Ponerology book, otherwise I keep a fairly low profile on the esoteric stuff. It is intended as an help/resource for people who are starting to question media- and political reality.

http:(2slash)blog(dot)lege.net/

As for myself, I have read many more books related to "The Work", including Adventures and so far Book 1 of the Wave series. I do have some thoughts related to that, but more on that later, and in a different thread.


UPDATE 2007-01-23: The above blog will not continue to recommend Laura Knight Jadczyk, Arkadiusz Jadczyk, Cassiopaea/Quantum Future School(QFS)/Signs of the Times , Lisa Guliani, "Victor Thorn" (Scott Makufka), Wing TV.

If you wish to censor this - then please delete this entire thread.

As a recovered mormon, I recognized a trifle too much of the manipulation experienced there, and the manipulation going on here. It's not the facts, it's the psychological mind-games... It's the projecting. If you care to find out, look at "The Pattern of the Double-Bind in Mormonism" by Marion Stricker at http://exmormon(dot)org/pattern/ - especially study the "MASTER CHART: Description of Stages in the Pattern" at the end of http://exmormon(dot)org/pattern/nature.htm

But even "Political Ponerology: A science on the nature of evil adjusted for political purposes" by Andrew M. Lobaczewski can be used to decode what is going on here. Compare what's in the book with the comments made by Henri Sy and Laura Knight-Jadczyk. The clues are like an open book for all who refuse to shut their eyes to it. I can be reached at [Moderator: email address edited out. This forum is not the place for advertising. Moreover, public display of email addresses is an invitation for spammers, and we do not want to contribute to this.] . This will be censored within minutes.... ;)
 

foofighter

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Welcome to the forum! I'm glad to see that you decided to join up after all, and I hope that you'll have a great time here! :-)
 

ark

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Leif Erlingsson said:
It's not the facts, it's the psychological mind-games...
Well, YOU, contrary to us, do not provide any facts to back up what you are claiming. Should I consider your post as a psychological mind-game? If so, what rewards do you expect by starting your mind-game here?
 

Laura

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I've read the linked article, Mr. Erlingsson, and for the life of me, I don't get the connection. What is exhibited on that page is precisely what we seek to assist people to see and untangle in their lives.

For example, we agree 100% with the following:

A REVIEW OF THE FACTS KNOWN IN THE REAL WORLD

The Basic Necessities for a Constructive Life Worth Living are:
First, our BODY ... which houses and cooperates with ...
Our SENSES ... by which we perceive the real world, and which in turn sends concrete messages to ...
Our BRAIN ... which can then function in order to question and reason, which leads to Self -control over our own lives ... to make individual choices which are our means of survival as rational, individually aware human beings.

This is an OPEN SYSTEM, where there is always room for growth, expansion, and correction ... trial and error being included in the process of gaining more awareness and knowledge, which makes possible more life and happiness in its most constructive aspects.
Then, in reference to what this website calls "The Pattern," it says:

What The Pattern Is and What the Pattern Does

The Pattern is a method used that subjugates and dehumanizes. It does this by creating a new fabricated world, the direct opposite of this real world. ...

The Pattern destroys the awareness of all the above necessary faculties for the realization of our own individual identity; the most essential parts of us as human beings are missing. Therefore, all that is human and intrinsic to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, is invalidated. The Pattern destroys Identity, along with integrity of mind, and the ability to truly love.

IT DOES THIS BY TURNING THE REAL WORLD UPSIDE-DOWN
THROUGH FRAUD AND THEFT

It operates by reversing the order of our natural functions, and by replacement, as follows:

1. The MIND of a controller, whom I call the "Binder," reverses the basic order, and replaces the individual's brain with the Mind of the Binder; as a result, sense perceptions to the brain are invalidated.

2. "FEELINGS" that are attached to the pre-conceived ideas in the Binder's Mind replace individual authentic perceptions and their accompanying emotions.

3. The BODY of the individual is now last in order, and becomes the property of the Binder, and is his to control, replacing Self-control.

This I call a CLOSED SYSTEM, which admits nothing that is not already preconceived by the Binder. To do this, the Binder must continually suppress the integrity of the body, separating the brain and emotions from the real world of sense perceptions ... our means of perceiving the real world.
The above is exactly the system of psychopathic controls that have been imposed on our world as is evidence by almost everything you look at around you, not the least of which is the obvious, un-arguable, fact, that the planet is teetering on the brink of total destruction.

It is psychopathy - pathological deviance - as described by Lobaczewski, that has taken over our world, and it is that which we stand against.

So, it strikes me as truly bizarre that you claim to stand against the very same things that we do, and yet you accuse us of being guilty of those same things.

It's rather bizarre to be accused - without any data provided - of the very thing you seek to combat. We would have a better chance of understanding exactly what you are talking about if you would be clear and concise and provide evidence and examples.

I should add that, reading the "pattern" thing gave me a bit of a pain because it was very poorly written and a very poor example. Fact is, I was in exactly such a situation with a REAL contractor once - a psychopath - and when it came to the point that he thought he was going to turn the blame around on me when he was not doing HIS job, and he wanted MY money, I fired him. It really is that simple.

What kind of a person would get into a situation as described in this piece? What kind of person would stay in a religion like that past the age of nine?

This is, of course, a semi-rhetorical question. As lobaczewski writes:

[A]ttempting to persuade an individual under the spell of an essential psychopath (usually women, but not always), is generally doomed to failure. However, when we ask the question: why did the victim not notice immediately the psychopath’s anomalous ways of “feeling� and thinking, we discover quite often that there is, in the victim, circuits of thought and behavior embedded there by early influence of another abnormal personality, generally one characterized by mental disorders caused by brain tissue damage. This has been noted by me so often that it requires special emphasis and consideration. The important thing is that once this is revealed, the door has been opened to effective psychotherapy.

The psychotherapist may then assist the patient to elaborate full awareness of this detrimental influence as well as the means to overcome or to eliminate these very tendencies from his or her personality. The result is that the patient can re-learn accurate ways of feeling and understanding not only the self, but other people as well.

And so it is that when a patient presents certain problems for which there seems to be no obvious cause, and the psychotherapist becomes aware of the spell-binding influence of a psychopath in the life of his or her patient, it is more conducive to successful therapy to approach the problem in this way, and thus the concealed problem – the influence of the psychopath – will be solved as well because the patient will learn to see the abnormality in the process of identifying it in the self.
Somehow, I think there is the concealed influence of a psychopath involved here.
 

foofighter

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Since I and Leif are the only two Swedish bloggers that mention Laura and Lobaczewski I have had some email conversations with Leif. It made sense to keep in touch, or so I thought. But recently, after I told him that he had some big issues with self-importance, I received the following email. I have directly translated it from Swedish, keeping it as close as possible to the original with regard to style and wording, and so the grammar may be a little off. I think you will find it interesting. Here goes:
<my name>,

Your letter says a lot.

And you make a mistake which is in my karma to get back - I have done the same mistake myself once upon a time. Interpreting others based on ones own experiences.

It is also interesting to study how you on the one hand say that I should not consider myself important as a person and how you on the other promote literature which exactly deals with a person who takes himself and his interactions with the universe very seriously.

An interesting paradox.

Furthermore it is of course pure idiocy, possibly disinformation, that one should not consider oneself as important in ones own life, since all people obviously are the main characters in their own lives. It is so to speak the cosmic/divine/call-it-what-you-want plan.

As you can understand from the above I am not "co-linear", or "has the spirit" as mormons say or "clear" in Scientology or "objective" from Objectivism, etc., with you. So I understand that you now will hit the big button labelled "THOUGHTSTOP"!

I have of course LOTS of feed-back. But can you receive? That's the question....

Best regards,

// Leif Erlingsson. Are you asleep? Wake up with http://blog(dot)lege.net/



(Ascii Art - keep the newlinews, or this will be junk)

<huge ascii art saying "MORE" in Swedish>

I don't think you will see this, but felt that the right thing to do is to give you feedback on what it is that you are actually projecting and writing.

Clues:

I have deep experience with having been manipulated and having myself, due to lack of insight, manipulated. The structures for this in the Mormon church are described in general terms at http://exmormon(dot)org/ - in particular the very interesting book about "The Pattern of the Double-Bind in Mormonism" by Marion Stricke, which contains VERY DEEP PSYCHOLOGICAL INSIGHTS ABOUT MANIPULATION, CONTROL, ETC which can be applied to all of society: http://exmormon(dot)org/pattern/ (It's available on-line at this link, but can also be ordered from for example Amazon.com.)

From the mentioned book one should spend some time philosophising over the matrix "MASTER CHART: Description of Stages in the Pattern" at the end of this webpage: http://exmormon(dot)org/pattern/nature.htm I found a several year old printout of this matrix among my papers when I tidied them up a couple of days ago, that's how I remembered. And I understood MUCH more now, than the first time I saw it. It meant a lot more to me now. When I myself still were very much under the influence of these processes, in spite of my trying to get free, it was not as crystal clear as it is today.

I have therefore, from my own - not other's - studies come to the conclusion that what you and your friends are doing is something very manipulative. I didn't know earlier if it was just you, or if it was the entire QFS that was at fault. Now I have found my answers. What you are doing will eventually lead to a paralyzing paranoia. What you are doing can potentially destroy all resistance against the new world order. Fortunately you are not doing so well. It is then not really much wrong with many of the facts you are spreading, that is not the origin of the attack. Therefore I will in the future continue to link to (with a disclaimer) Signs of the Times, etc, as it is important to study everything, when one wants to retain the gold nuggets.

But your total fokus on broken people - psychopaths - makes it appear as though you are dividing people into "us and them", in spite of all the nice words to the contrary. I know those nice words, I have believed many of them for 15 years as a devoted mormon. This focus - rather than focusing on sick systems - is dangerous. I agree completely with regard to the sick systems, and agree with Dr Lobaczewski in this regard. But some of the footnotes of the book, by Henri Sy and Laura Knight-Jadczyk, suggest that something is not right. They are footnotes which enforce the differences between different "kinds" of people. Actually contrary to one of Dr Lobaczewskis figures on one of the pages in the book.

I wrote at the beginning "Your letter says a lot". I could have added: as does also your blogging. It is in fact to a large extent psychologically colorless. That's how I would characterize it. Compare with what Andrew M. Lobaczewski writes in "Political Ponerology: The Scientific Study of Evil Adjusted for Political Purposes" regarding this. The clues are there.

Excerpt from my personal history, this part authored 2004-07-25:
... I was already thoroughly indoctrinated into something that with noted psychologist R D Laing's theory of "social phantasy systems" could be described as exactly such a system: ``In Self and Others, however, Laing described normality as a state of unwitting immersion in what he termed "social phantasy systems" - deeply shared assumptions about reality that define the perspective of a particular group, but are not necessarily shared by outsiders, and may not tally with the facts.'' [ Online introduction to R D Laing's Self and Others (1961), http://laingsociety(dot)org/biblio/sando.htm ]
---

Later in the same text I quote a mormon which correctly had noticed that I was not what QFS would call "co-linear" with her:
"Your letters have been filled with ill intent and I have felt it to the core of my soul from the first.'' (Tue, 2 Dec 2003 07:56:15)"
I continue:
She then contacted her friends (= "emotional-support network"), and they assured her that I was in the wrong, that I was arrogant and that my pride prevented me from seeing this, and that I should apologize.

What I did not understand, and what I stubbornly refused to accept, was the fact that my missionary and her friends were trapped inside a social phantasy system that made it clinically impossible for her and them to consider critically anything outside her/their particular framework. Conversely, from my outside perspective, their attitudes looked insane, and I felt unable to apologize for "trying to wake them up".
In an article in Asia Times July 8, 2004 Canadian psychologist Dr Daniel Burston explains that the social phantasy system becomes a source of solace and security for a person who are part of it, forming an emotional-support network providing its individual members with a mistaken sense of legitimacy. Even though the system, humanly speaking, is "fundamentally at odds with our basic existential and human needs". Even though the system, humanly speaking, SHOULD generate internal conflict. But it does not.
Instead the members of the system share in the rationalization and thus make it appear to be 'realistic' to the members of such a group. And, forming the emotional-support network already mentioned. [ Source: "U.S.: Patriotic Pride and Fear", Ritt Goldstein, Asia Times, Tue July 8, 2004, http://truthout(dot)org/docs_04/071504I.shtml ]

I have now analyzed our interaction. What my missionary did when I initially warned her was:

1. She felt that what I was communicating was at odds with the framework she was operating from within -- at odds with the social phantasy system she belonged to, that is.

2. She contacted her "emotional-support network". And one member of her "emotional-support network", being well indoctrinated in the mother-lode of the American conservative social phantasy systems through various super-conservative web sites, provided the other members of the network with the assurance they needed that they were right and that I was wrong.

3. My missionary felt vindicated in her initial feeling of cognitive dissonance that she attributed to ``Your letters have been filled with ill intent and I have felt it to the core of my soul from the first.'' (Tue, 2 Dec 2003 07:56:15)

4. She told me so, after in the same letter having informed me that ``the thoughts, ideas and information you have spewed out in volumes are confused, misinformed, highly insulting. You got called on it and that; I can understand it hard to face.''

Here I end the example on failed communication with my missionary and her "emotional-support network", resulting in failed friendship. But it is only one example of many of failed communication. I have routinely been compared to the Devil, for my efforts. I suppose that I offer the "forbidden fruit of knowledge".... How else could I be compared to the Devil? ;) Or perhaps it's because of my dedication. When I was misunderstood I used to assume that my communication skills were inadequate, and try another way.

End quote.

I have now followed some of the threads on the Signs of the Times Forum, and have studied the same patterns there. What is so fascinating is that they make the same mistake they talk about avoiding. Tragicomical. See for example "Political Ponerology: A science on the nature of evil adjusted for political purposes" by Andrew M. Lobaczewski, page 110, after the wavy line. The footnotes in the book, by Henri Sy and Laura Knight-Jadczyk, suggested to me that the process was already in progress. Which a deeper analysis of the Signs of the Times forum hence confirmed for me.

You <my name> project for example that it is me who is in error and that I should "network" - a term I now understand to mean to communicate in the open on the Signs of the Times forum or within the QFS. To me, who have studied the dynamic of how new sectvictims are manipulated to stop trusting their own judgment, and transfer the power of decision making to someone else, this is very obvious. But I have not been certain whether it is only you who have these problems, or if this is a diseasesymptom for QFS. My studies the past few days suggest the latter. Which is a tragical paradox.

What you do is extremely excluding. Which, considering the deep esoteric insights and knowledge that you have attained, as I said is deeply tragical. I cannot but wonder if this can be a sign of the "self-destruct-programming" Laura supposedly was a victim of. What you do is hence the very OPPOSITE of networking. I network. You don't. You repel. You divide. You go deeper and deeper into paranoia. All attempts to get to you, will eventually be interpreted as attacks - if this is not happening already. I can only hope that you will find you way out of the labyrinth, some time.

I therefore realize that what I write for you sounds like craziness, backwards, Down the Rabbit-Hole. I have myself "been there, done that".

You should see how I reacted to a similar communication 1992-08-22, when it reached me. I put the letter in a folder, and didn't return to it until 2002-03-04, when I had concluded myself that what was in that letter was completely right. But I couldn't believe it in the meantime. And the same way it is with you. You will not be able to understand what I write. And yet it was YOU who first contacted ME. So in some esoterical sense you have still, at some level, asked. I'm not doing anything wrong to write this, but it doesn't change anything for you.

For myself I intend to network. And not how you think of it, but with the intent to include people, to do the opposite of being paranoid.

And should you one day start thinking along the lines I have outlined above, you are always welcome to ask me for support. I already run a supportnetwork for "Post Mormons", see "Post-Mormon network" at http://xmo(dot)lege.net/postmormon/

Take care.

PS. The discussions at http://exmormon(dot)org remind me a lot about those at <GLP/Vinnie thread reference>

The dynamics is the same; to smash holy cows and selfinflated "truthsayers".
 

ark

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This is devoid of logic. Look at this: "This focus - rather than focusing on sick systems - is dangerous." But Leif is not asking the evident question: who creates sick systems and who supports them? Complete lack of thinking. Or look at this: "from my outside perspective, their (Mormons?) attitudes looked insane." So, he himself is looking at some people as "sick", not at the "system". The he defends "self-importance" by twisting the logic and lack of understanding of what self-importance is.

An exaggerated belief in one's own importance: egoism, self-importance
Again, lack of thinking and understanding.

Of course sometimes I am also making errors and I have problems with my own thinking and understanding. But I am happy and thankful when someone points my mistakes or faults to me.
 

Laura

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Leif Erlingsson said:
The discussions at http://exmormon(dot)org remind me a lot about those at <GLP/Vinnie thread reference>

The dynamics is the same; to smash holy cows and selfinflated "truthsayers".
In other words, what he seems to be saying is that he runs a "support network" for "post-mormons" that reminds him of the Vincent Bridges filth and invective - lies and defamation - at godlikeproductions???

Why am I not surprised. I knew there was a psychopath in the woodpile!

In short, he went from the mormon cult to the Vincent Bridges psychopathy-Babel cult. And he thinks he is free??!!

Not a surprise. With that enormous ego - forget networking, trust only your own thinking, never mind that your own thinking is damaged and is what was shaped by the mormon cult - there is no possibility of this guy getting anything.

Funny that he refers to Lobaczewski with such deference. Does he realize that we didn't just publish Lobaczewski's book, we communicate with him directly and regularly and discuss people such as Vincent Bridges with him and he has confirmed and augmented our assessments of that gang.
 

foofighter

Jedi Council Member
Indeed. And what is even funnier is that his blog now reference SOTT, Cassiopedia, me, etc. with a link to a snapshot image of this thread, and his "statement" above, which supposedly is a "disclaimer" that shows that we are not up to scratch (http://blog(dot)lege.net/content/signs_of_the_times_statement_complete.png). But if people follow that "statement" and read this thread they are going to see a slightly different picture. I wonder how long he will keep the links at all, or if he is blind enough not to see that this thread actually exposes him for what he is. We'll see.
 

Niall

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You know, my first thought after reading his 'disclaimer' was "this guy's shaping himself up to be a recovering 'Cass-cult member' "

To accept the macrosocial arguments of Political Ponerology but deny the person-to-person pathodynamics is like accepting evolution as valid but suggesting genetics is flawed!
 

ark

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I think he will be keep the link. Why do I think so? Because of his big ego. He will like that the people are discussing, even his lack of logic and consistency - as long as it is about HIM: "see I'M I'Mportant! I've made a STIR!"

But, of course, I can be wrong (not enough data). Wait and see...
 

Laura

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starsailor said:
You know, my first thought after reading his 'disclaimer' was "this guy's shaping himself up to be a recovering 'Cass-cult member'
Well, it's a curious thing. I notice that the people who go on and on about being "cult survivors" are one of two types: either they are really "cult susceptible," and have succumbed to the cult of the "cult survivor" or they are claiming to be a cult survivor in order to get a following of other cult survivors. In either case, it's all about ego.

I'm still rather taken aback that anybody who considers themselves at all educated and capable of logic would perceive the out and out lies and filth of the Bridges gang on GLP as any kind of example of anything HUMAN. I guess he didn't read the threads on this forum about Bridges and HIS background in trying to start a cult and how he tried to do it by taking over our discussion group, for which he was unceremoniously booted.

And if this guy can't see the pathology of a couple of guys spending over 6 years creating websites for defamation, and taking different roles and identities and talking to each other on a discussion board for over 100 pages, the purpose of which is to defame another person with filth and lies, then there's not much hope for him anyway.

Leif Erlingsson said:
I have now followed some of the threads on the Signs of the Times Forum, and have studied the same patterns there. What is so fascinating is that they make the same mistake they talk about avoiding. Tragicomical. See for example "Political Ponerology: A science on the nature of evil adjusted for political purposes" by Andrew M. Lobaczewski, page 110, after the wavy line. The footnotes in the book, by Henri Sy and Laura Knight-Jadczyk, suggested to me that the process was already in progress. Which a deeper analysis of the Signs of the Times forum hence confirmed for me.
Very interesting that Leif refers to the paranoid psychopathy and fails to notice the most characteristic symptom of that condition which is exemplified most particularly in his "mentor," Vincent Bridges, and that symptom is in bold in the following:

Paranoid character disorders: It is characteristic of paranoid behavior for people to be capable of relatively correct reasoning and discussion as long as the conversation involves minor differences of opinion. This stops abruptly when the partner’s arguments begin to undermine their overvalued ideas, crush their long-held stereotypes of reasoning, or forces them to accept a conclusion they had subconsciously rejected before. Such a stimulus unleashes upon the partner a torrent of pseudo-logical, largely paramoralistic, often insulting utterances which always contain some degree of suggestion.
Now, notice the next part that is most important:

Utterances like these inspire aversion among cultivated and logical people, who then tend to avoid the paranoid types.
Now, one might wonder what is so dramatic about the spewing of the paranoid type that it is repellent to cultivated people?

I had a suspicion, but just to confirm that suspicion, I asked Lobaczewski about it and I was right. The paranoid psychopath is overly prone to using filthy language. They simply can't help it. When their button is pushed by anyone resisting their domination, they fall into filth, mostly words relating to excretory functions. It is as though their emotions are stuck forever at the age of two or three, the approximate age when most children are potty trained. The paranoid psychopath is subconsciously obsessed with excretion.

In other words, one of the characteristics of the paranoid psychopath is "Potty Mouth."

Now, who does that describe?

I have a folder full of that kind of stuff from Vincent Bridges and Storm Bear Williams and their gang. This is the material that, for Lobaczewski, confirmed the diagnosis.

Getting back to Lobaczewski and his description of the type and how it applies to Leif:

However, the power of the paranoid lies in the fact that they easily enslave less critical minds, e.g. people with other kinds of psychological deficiencies, who have been victims of the egotistical influence of individuals with character disorders, and, in particular, a large segment of young people.
This describes Leif exactly: a less critical mind that has been seriously damaged by being victimized by character disordered cult leaders.

A proletarian may perceive this power to enslave to be a kind of victory over higher-class people and thus take the paranoid person’s side. However, this is not the normal reaction among the common people, where perception of psychological reality occurs no less often than among intellectuals.
We have certainly observed quite a bit of this in Vincent Bridges' "Cult Survivors Cult." He attracts some of the most - well - it's hard to find the right word to describe the kind of ignorant and illiterate people he has as followers and sycophants. I once described them as "trailer trash," and that will just have to do for now even if it is a term that may not be fully understood by the European mind.

In sum then, the response of accepting paranoid argumentation is qualitatively more frequent in reverse proportion to the civilization level of the community in question, although it never approaches the majority. Nevertheless, paranoid individuals become aware of their enslaving influence through experience and attempt to take advantage of it in a pathologically egotistic manner.
And we see that Leif has accepted the paranoid argumentation. Because, remember, the chief thing about paranoid argumentation is that it is predicated on overvalued ideas, stereotypical reasoning, subconscious rejection and selection. In other words, Vincent Bridges could never accept the fact that he had been exposed as a liar and a hypocrite because his self-image was that of a great channel of extraterrestrial intelligences - the Ophanim - and a great teacher, and, in fact, the one chose to "Initiate the Eschaton." When he was told that this was all a load of hooey and bunk, that all the years he had spent on Black Magic and dancing around naked in the moonlight, and that nonsense, his "over-valued" ideas of himself were "bruised" and he let loose with a stream of filth and invective that has continued for the past 6 years unabated.

Now THAT'S a Paranoid Psychopath!
 

ark

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After doing some research on Mormons, I realized that Leif's inconsistency may well be inherited from Mormons.
Here is a nice review of the Mormon's story:

.http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt95.html

Note in particular the following passage about their foundator - Smith.

Smith’s consistency is also open to serious question. The final, official version of Smith’s discovery of the plates is, as we have seen, that the angel Moroni appeared and informed him how to get them. But two neighbours, the brothers Hiel and Joseph Lewis (regarded by their fellow-citizens as "truthful, honorable, Christian gentlemen") testified that in 1827, when he first began translating the alleged plates, Smith’s original story was that his mystic information was none other than the ghost of a bearded Spaniard, with his throat cut from ear to ear, and blood streaming down! Not one word about angels! (ibid. pp.335-336). Perhaps even worse, the Lewis brothers recall that, in June 1828, two years before the foundation of the Mormon Church, Joseph Smith approached their father, Rev. Nathaniel Lewis, and expressed the wish to join his denomination – the Methodist Episcopal Church. However, he was so notorious as a person of bad character that the Methodists agreed to keep him only if he agreed to submit to a disciplinary investigation and publicly renounce his fraudulent and hypocritical practices. Joseph confirmed their suspicions that his application was motivated chiefly by a desire to gain respectability by declining these conditions promptly, and having his name struck off the Methodist roll after only three days (ibid. pp.336-337). The glaring inconsistency, of course, is that according to Smith’s "divinely-inspired" autobiography in the Pearl of Great Price, God himself had already told Joseph in the first vision of 1820 that he must not join any of the existing ‘sects’, all of which were "corrupt". What business, then, had he in becoming a Methodist?
On the other hand the reverse factor may have also played the role: Leif joined mormons because his thinking was inconsistent. Like attract like.

But again, this is only my working hypothesis. Perhaps more data will come, then I will revise my hypothesis.
 

Al Today

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ark said:
But again, this is only my working hypothesis. Perhaps more data will come, then I will revise my hypothesis.
I used to be Mormon.
Perhaps I can point you to some beginning references.

http(colon)(double slash)LDS(dot)org
http(colon)(double slash)MORMON(dot)org

Of course, these are official sites and may be full of propaganda.
Before I came across the Cs material (quite by accident), I believed that Mormonism was the closest to the truth.
As compared to the other psycho-babbling controllers using religion that is…
I was also raised a Southern Baptist.
Do I hear a Halleluiah and an Amen.!?.!?.!?
But seriously…
The Mormons teach worlds without end.
If righteous, I could become like god.
As a god, I would have little spirit children and populate my own 'earth'.
I would be a GOD…
Oh, yeah baby…
Let’s not forget our mother in heaven.
As on earth as in heaven, so I was told.
She was sealed to her husband for eternity in some other land, far, far away, and so long, long ago…
Why aren’t we taught about our heavenly mother?
Our heavenly father is blasphemed all the time, yes?
Well, heavenly father loves his wife so much, and to spare her the pain he has (with us), she is not spoken of here on this earthly plane.
I used to teach this schtuff…
I’ve been in positions of leadership, stewardship, and 'authority'.
I’ve been to the temples.
I’ve participated in the ‘secret' temple 'rituals'.
I call them rituals for that is what they are…
I even have the magical undergarments to protect me.
I’ve been sealed to my family for all eternity.
A big saying is 'Families are Forever'.
With no other knowledge, being with your family forever is an enticement.
So when I 'hear' someone flaming an organized religion, I get emotional.
Sheeple.
Hell, I quit and I need NO therapy.
The creator gave us a MIND/BRAIN to use.
USE IT PLEASE.
And of course, listen to the little voices within.
Learn to discern and make up your own mind.
I need more patience with whiners who can’t think independently.
 

ark

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Al Today said:
So when I 'hear' someone flaming an organized religion, I get emotional.
Sheeple.
Hell, I quit and I need NO therapy.
The creator gave us a MIND/BRAIN to use.
USE IT PLEASE.
And of course, listen to the little voices within.
Learn to discern and make up your own mind.
I need more patience with whiners who can’t think independently.
I would add to the above: and creator gave us INTERNET. How long this gift
is going to last before being shut down - we don't know. But while it is still
with us - let's use it while we can, so that we can connect to the MIND/BRAINS of other
people who are also trying to make up their minds by thinking, reasoning,
discerning, researching and sharing their experiences and data. How better can we find
inadequacies in our knowledge if not by exposing our thoughts to the scrutiny of others,
with a similar goal: to know.
 
The Articles of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said:
We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
Comparing the SOTT forum with mormon activities is laughable in a sad way. Leif, only the 'claim' article might make sense here: worship what you want to worship. Free will for everyone, at own risk.
 
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