Let the right one in

[bedower]

[quote author=Alderpax today] Quote from: bedower
Quote from: Alderpax
What I've never understood is the whole thing about a vampire being compelled to stop and count seeds if you throw a bunch at it. How could this be an STS allegory, I wonder?

This particular piece of vampire lore is fairly recent knowledge for me - there's something else about socks, too; that if a vampire loses a sock, it must search and search until it finds it. No, honestly!


That's extremely interesting, but also extremely odd. I'd never heard that one.
[/quote]

Ok, I confess - I seem to remember reading about the socks in 'Carpe Jugulum' by Terry Pratchett!

Forgive me my small tease.

[quote author=Alderpax today] So in this case, what would the "seeds" be? [/quote]

If this is an authentic piece of vampire lore - i.e. did it exist before the X-Files? - then that's an interesting question. I can certainly accept the compulsive/obssessive traits of 4D STS as plausible according to how it's been described here, but I've never come across the 'seeds' bit before. Maybe the 'seeds' are each individual action that brings the STS-aligned closer and closer to full alignment; sort of starting off with small anti-social cruel actions (pulling wings off flies, e.g?) and gradually increasing the 'badness' in the progressive acts until - bingo, all the 'seeds' are counted, so to speak. Again, just a thought.

I look forward to reading your comedic story! ;)

 

[Argonaut]

[quote author=bedower]
[quote author=Alderpax]
[Quote author=bedower]

This particular piece of vampire lore is fairly recent knowledge for me - there's something else about socks, too; that if a vampire loses a sock, it must search and search until it finds it. No, honestly!
[/quote]

That's extremely interesting, but also extremely odd. I'd never heard that one.
[/quote]

Ok, I confess - I seem to remember reading about the socks in 'Carpe Jugulum' by Terry Pratchett!

Forgive me my small tease.
[/quote]

Forgiven.

[Quote author=bedower]
[quote author=Alderpax]

So in this case, what would the "seeds" be?
[/quote]

If this is an authentic piece of vampire lore - i.e. did it exist before the X-Files? - then that's an interesting question. I can certainly accept the compulsive/obssessive traits of 4D STS as plausible according to how it's been described here, but I've never come across the 'seeds' bit before. Maybe the 'seeds' are each individual action that brings the STS-aligned closer and closer to full alignment; sort of starting off with small anti-social cruel actions (pulling wings off flies, e.g?) and gradually increasing the 'badness' in the progressive acts until - bingo, all the 'seeds' are counted, so to speak. Again, just a thought.
[/quote]

Yes, it's authentic; but very obscure, like most other myths and folklore that Hollywood doesn't utilize. X-Files and Pratchett were rare exceptions, although they each had their own unique take on it.

I was thinking about the seed question today, and here's what I came up with: The seeds are something that the vampire's potential victim uses to distract it, taking advantage of its weakness in order to escape attack. If we take that weakness to be STS's myopic wishful thinking, the seeds could be some method of temporarily shattering the attacker's delusions of control, making them hesitate and "throwing them off their game" just long enough for us to escape. In the vampire's case, the sudden appearance of the seeds is an unforseen variable, something that their view of life ("chase victim, catch victim, feed on victim") can't accomodate. So in a desperate attempt to reestablish order and control, the vampire must count the seeds. Once the seeds are counted, the vampire feels that order has been restored because the seeds are now a concrete part of its reality. Of course, by then the victim is probably long gone, and the vampire must search for another one.

With everyday 3D STS, examples of this are easy to find. Say a man has a vampiric, manipulative mother. Her "feeding dynamic" is to call him on the phone and play the martyr, draining him emotionally by eliciting guilt and sympathy from him. Once she has siphoned off enough of his life force and feels satisfied she ends the call. But one day this man (who is in therapy) gets a call from Mom and decides he won't stand for it anymore. So when she starts in on her first sob story, he cuts her off. "Mom, I love you and want to talk with you, but I don't like it when you complain and guilt-trip me. From now on I'm gonna hang up when you do that." The man has just tossed seeds at the vampire. The mother is shocked by cognative dissonance - this isn't how things are supposed to go. It's not how they've EVER gone! So now the mother must somehow incorporate these "seeds" into her view of reality. Unfortunately, she will probably do so by convincing herself that her son hates her and react with anger - much like the vampire who has lost its prey. She will then crank up the guilt manipulation a few decibels, desperately trying to reestablish the dynamic. But if the man sticks to his guns, the attack will be thwarted. The man will escape (maybe after a few more converations like this) and the mother will have no choice but to feed on someone else.

As for 4D STS, the "seeds" might be thrown any time we go against a mechanical habit, forcing the Lizzies to change tactics. Or since energy drained to a 3D vampire siphons off to 4D STS, maybe tossing seeds at a 3D vamp IS throwing them at 4D STS.

[Quote author=bedower]
I look forward to reading your comedic story! ;)
[/quote]

I was thinking of writing a sequel to Rain Man where Lestat shows up and turns him into a vampire. Van Helsing comes to stop him, but is killed when he throws a handful of seeds at Rain Man - who looks down, counts them instantly, then tears his throat out.

 

[bedower]

[quote author=Alderpax yesterday] Yes, it's authentic; but very obscure, like most other myths and folklore [/quote]

I've always believed that myths contain a lot of historical (and maybe esoteric) knowledge at their core, and once had a head-to-head with my history tutor about it. Historians hate myths, for some reason. The same with folklore; somewhere inside there is a piece of essential knowledge, osit. Maybe this is the case with the 'seeds' in vampire lore - if we can decipher what the 'seeds' are supposed to represent, this knowledge gives us not a weapon exactly, but a way to counteract a vampire attack. But, it's already been pointed out by the Cassies that myths, legends and folklore have now been garbled by time; things added and things taken out to the extent that the kernel of knowledge is no longer recognised for what it is (if I remember correctly :/).

[quote author=Alderpax yesterday] I was thinking about the seed question today, and here's what I came up with: The seeds are something that the vampire's potential victim uses to distract it, taking advantage of its weakness in order to escape attack. [/quote]

Exactly - but why only 'escape' attack? Why not a more permanent banishment, as it were? Obscure or not, the 'seeds' piece of lore must be pretty important for it to have survived down the centuries, osit. I'm guessing in the dark here. (If it is centuries old; maybe someone only made it up a couple of hundred years ago!)

As for 4D STS, the "seeds" might be thrown any time we go against a mechanical habit, forcing the Lizzies to change tactics.

Yes, this sounds as though it could be a lot closer to the meaning than my suggestion; distraction and enforced change of tack for the 'feeders'!

I was thinking of writing a sequel to Rain Man where Lestat shows up and turns him into a vampire. Van Helsing comes to stop him, but is killed when he throws a handful of seeds at Rain Man - who looks down, counts them instantly, then tears his throat out.

Wot, without a buxom female in an under-wired nightie making an appearance? ;D

 

[Argonaut]

[quote author=bedower]

I've always believed that myths contain a lot of historical (and maybe esoteric) knowledge at their core

[/quote]

Same here.... But there's always a danger of fantasy thinking in interpreting the "hidden meaning" in myths - or even of going way out in left field and seeing hidden meanings where none exist. I've read books by several authors who have "pet theories" of how the world works, how religions were formed, etc, who interpreted the exact same myths in totally different ways... The Holy Grail and The Philosopher's Stone seem to suffer from this quite often. Everyone has their own version of what these things really represent. The figure of Jesus does as well. I once read a quote which said that a researcher's answer to "who was Jesus" tells you far more about the researcher than about Jesus. I think that can also be true with many other interpretations of things. Might we also be falling prey to this by seeing the vampire lore as a 4D STS allegory? Possibly. But I like to think that what we're doing is using the myth as allegory, and not neccesarily claiming to know the original intent of the myth. Because we really can't know that.

[quote author=bedower]

Maybe this is the case with the 'seeds' in vampire lore - if we can decipher what the 'seeds' are supposed to represent, this knowledge gives us not a weapon exactly, but a way to counteract a vampire attack. But, it's already been pointed out by the Cassies that myths, legends and folklore have now been garbled by time; things added and things taken out to the extent that the kernel of knowledge is no longer recognised for what it is (if I remember correctly :/).

[/quote]

Yes, exactly. There is also the concept of things working on multiple levels at once. A myth could have various interpretations which are all true. And who knows - maybe the vampire folklore isn't symbolic at all? I've read some pretty compelling evidence of literal vampires in existence. Eye-witness accounts, that type of thing. There are tons of possibilities.

[quote author=bedower]

Exactly - but why only 'escape' attack? Why not a more permanent banishment, as it were? Obscure or not, the 'seeds' piece of lore must be pretty important for it to have survived down the centuries, osit. I'm guessing in the dark here. (If it is centuries old; maybe someone only made it up a couple of hundred years ago!)

[/quote]

Well, the seeds facilitate an escape, but there's other anti-vampire stuff for the arsenal - garlic, holy water, stakes, silver (and possibly iron)... There could be a wealth of strategies for dealing with STS among all of these things.

[quote author=bedower]

Wot, without a buxom female in an under-wired nightie making an appearance? ;D

[/quote]

Well the outline is still in the early stages, so I suppose it can be expanded. Maybe have Buffy appear at the end and save the day. In an under-wired nightie.

 

[anart]

I watched this movie tonight due to the suggestions here and I enjoyed it:

Well, now I've purchased and read the novel this film was based on. It gives a bit more insight.

From what you've explained, it certainly fills in a LOT of blanks in the movie. I'd even suggest that the movie did a disservice to the book (as is often the case) since these details would have enriched it very much.

And to Corto Maltese and Los - I've heard horrible things about the dubbed version of the movie, and now it seems they were all true. But the original Swedish actors were very good. Hollywood is apparently working on an American remake, as well. Who knows how that one will turn out.

I have to admit - that was the worst dubbing I have ever seen in a movie anywhere. If I hadn't read this post of yours, I'd not have made it past the first five minutes ----- however - despite the horrible dubbing ( and - seriously - it was horrible) - the movie is really quite enjoyable. The actors do a good job (if you ignore the dubbed voices and pay attention to their expressions and movements), especially those playing Oskar and Eli - it's engaging and it's an interesting story line. I enjoyed it. I do wish they had added more background information from the book, but I think I see why they did it the way they did it - although I think the end result is much more shallow than it could have been. All in all, I think it was worth the watch but would have MUCH more enjoyed subtitles!!!

I kept wondering, 'who approved this dubbing idea and these actors doing it - were they mad?'... :)

 

[Argonaut]

[quote author=anart]

I kept wondering, 'who approved this dubbing idea and these actors doing it - were they mad?'... :)

[/quote]

I picture someone walking out of the studio onto the street and yelling, "Hey! Anybody wanna dub a movie?" XD

 

[Tigersoap]

There is another controversy with the subtitles on the DVD now :

_http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2009/03/let-the-right-one-in-encounters-dvd-controversy.html

They have been altered and are very different from the theatrical version.

I still don't understand how you did not get the dvd which allowed the original version subtitled in English though o_O

Anyway, re-reading the thread which I missed a couple of interesting posts.
I am glad they did not go along with the plot in the original book, it would have made the movie much darker and I don't think it would have stand a chance to get released due to the disturbing content...I don't know.
Although without having read the book, I could spot the unnatural relationship between Eli and Hakan, not outrightly spoken about but there is enough evidence that something is weird there, my two cents.

 

[Joe]

I kept wondering, 'who approved this dubbing idea and these actors doing it - were they mad?'... :)

Wasn't there an original audio track with subtitles option? Maybe not. I think a lot of American versions of foreign movies just dub them horribly, and don't give an original with ST option. Not sure why.

Joe

 

[Joe]

Well, now I've purchased and read the novel this film was based on. It gives a bit more insight.

One thing the book reveals is that Eli's original servant Hakan was not a child when she obtained him - he was a teacher with pedophile tendencies.

It also explains that those who become infected with vampirism while alive are still fully themselves mentally and emotionally, but they must forever struggle with the desires of the vampire "bacteria" (basically a separate sentient lifeform within their bodies). At one point in the book Eli recalls meeting another vampire who told her that there are very few vampires in the world, because most choose to commit suicide rather than live that way. The book also reveals that true "undead" vampires are different - they're the ones who die before the infection takes hold; in this case the person is gone, leaving the bacteria in full control of the corpse. They are basically like mindless blood-drinking zombies. In the book this is what becomes of Eli's servant after she bites him and he falls to his death.

There is a point in the book where Oskar briefly wonders if Eli's personality and kindness are all just pretend - if maybe she is a pure evil being wearing a "human" mask to fool and manipulate him. The story never pursues this idea directly, but it does seem to indicate that it's not true. For example, after Oskar got upset over the fact that Eli kills people for blood, she chose to try a different method - she approached someone and offered him money in exchange for blood. She also took care not to infect this "donor" in the process. This shows that Eli probably does have a human conscience. The book also explores the idea of Eli being a child, and the possibility that the vampirism kept her mind and emotions from maturing, making her eternally 12 years old in every way. This could explain some of her choices.

Oh, and one small fact from the book that never made it into the film - It turns out that Eli was originally a BOY named Elias. The vampire who infected her liked to abduct young boys, remove their genitals, and keep them as vampiric slaves. Why Eli chose to live as a female is never really explained, but at one point the story does say that she viewed herself as essentially genderless. So her gender as a human might have been irrelevant to her. Still, after Eli's gender is revealed the book switches to "he" and "him" instead of "she" and "her" when describing Eli.

And to Corto Maltese and Los - I've heard horrible things about the dubbed version of the movie, and now it seems they were all true. But the original Swedish actors were very good. Hollywood is apparently working on an American remake, as well. Who knows how that one will turn out.

That might have made a decent enough movie. As it was, I thought it was pretty boring. The whole idea in fact was a bit moronic IMO. Someone tried to make a sentimental vampire movie, trying to show how the scenario of a vampire living in a small community would play out "in real life" as opposed to the standard sci-fi treatment vampire movies usually get. The thing is, the way vampires are portrayed today is just a distortion of their real origin - 4D/hyperdimensional beings draining human blood for nourishment. It has nothing to do with any actual *human* dynamic.

It's almost like making a movie that tries to show what it would be like for a transformer if he was in fact a real human being who was just afflicted with a condition whereby he turned into a robot car from time to time and the problems that caused him. Like imagine the poignancy of him being out with friends at a bar and suddenly he turns into "optimus prime" and unintentionally wrecks the bar. Imagine his embarassment and the frustration of his friends, who would all eventually shun him....how sad

 

[Argonaut]

Well, they finally did it. Hollywood's version of "Let the Right One In" hits theaters on October 1st! Except they chose to name it "Let Me In," for whatever reason. Here's the official site: http://www.letmein-movie.com. It's made by the director of "Cloverfield," and seems to be going for much more of a thriller/horror vibe than the original.

Oh, and Perceval, I somehow missed your response over a year ago! Sorry about that.

That might have made a decent enough movie. As it was, I thought it was pretty boring. The whole idea in fact was a bit moronic IMO. Someone tried to make a sentimental vampire movie, trying to show how the scenario of a vampire living in a small community would play out "in real life" as opposed to the standard sci-fi treatment vampire movies usually get.

Yeah, the film's pacing was pretty slow, but I think it was still well-made. I thought it was a reasonable "what if" scenario for someone who sees vampires through the lens of popular culture.

[quote author=Perceval]
The thing is, the way vampires are portrayed today is just a distortion of their real origin - 4D/hyperdimensional beings draining human blood for nourishment. It has nothing to do with any actual *human* dynamic.
[/quote]

Most likely. There have been supposed cases of "real" vampires recorded. But assuming the accounts are true, who knows what sort of beings were actually witnessed?

[quote author=Perceval]
It's almost like making a movie that tries to show what it would be like for a transformer if he was in fact a real human being who was just afflicted with a condition whereby he turned into a robot car from time to time and the problems that caused him. Like imagine the poignancy of him being out with friends at a bar and suddenly he turns into "optimus prime" and unintentionally wrecks the bar. Imagine his embarassment and the frustration of his friends, who would all eventually shun him....how sad
[/quote]

From the perspective of vampires being soulless monsters who are obviously non-human, I agree. But the idea of a "good" or conflicted vampire is fairly common in fiction, as is the concept of a vampire who pretends to be a normal person. The fictional vampire seems to represent a psychopath more than anything. To the point where the "good" ones almost seem like a way to make people view psychopaths in a sympathetic manner. Especially the whole "vampire romance" idea popularized by Twilight - a whole genre of books telling women that a human predator is the perfect man.

 

[Gimpy]

From the perspective of vampires being soulless monsters who are obviously non-human, I agree. But the idea of a "good" or conflicted vampire is fairly common in fiction, as is the concept of a vampire who pretends to be a normal person. The fictional vampire seems to represent a psychopath more than anything. To the point where the "good" ones almost seem like a way to make people view psychopaths in a sympathetic manner. Especially the whole "vampire romance" idea popularized by Twilight - a whole genre of books telling women that a human predator is the perfect man.

Yeah, I for one am just sick and tired of the whole genre, and currently purging my bookshelves of any author that treats them as sexy people with sharp teeth. I don't think I can sit through this movie, though I've had it on instant watch a while now. (And will likely delete it off soonest) ;)

 

[Argonaut]

Yeah, I for one am just sick and tired of the whole genre, and currently purging my bookshelves of any author that treats them as sexy people with sharp teeth.

Good to hear. Regular romance novels aren't much better, but at least their "perfect men" aren't blood-drinking dead guys.

[quote author=Gimpy]
I don't think I can sit through this movie, though I've had it on instant watch a while now. (And will likely delete it off soonest) ;)
[/quote]

You may want to give it a chance, if you don't mind films that move a bit slowly (compared to American movies, at least). This movie is worlds apart from junk like Twilight. I don't think the concept of a conflicted vampire is all bad. The problem is, it's rarely done well. But I think LTROI does a decent job with it. The book is far better, but that's almost always the case.

 

[Argonaut]

I looked up the remake on Wikipedia and learned that "Let Me In" was actually the novel's alternate name. Also, the film isn't a solely American project; it's a collaboration with the British Hammer Films - a company which has basically been inactive since they stopped cranking out all those low-budget horror flicks in the 1970's. They were famous for their Dracula films, so I guess it's fitting for them to make their comeback with this movie.

 

[luke wilson]

If for whatever reason you thought "let the right one in" was a decent movie... you may want to check out the below; spring

http://<iframe width="560" height="...D0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

As per one review

Do yourself a favor and watch the film without doing any research into the plot. I guarantee that even if you don't like it, you'll at least be incredibly surprised by what transpires. Essentially, the filmmakers have melded two genres and in doing so, invigorate each genre separately by the presence of the other one.

Another one

Don't read anything else. Just see it. Spring is special.

and another

Every so often, a film comes along that takes so weird a turn that it completely discombobulates the viewer. Spring is such a film.

My thoughts after watching it.... that was kind of erhmmm.... disturbing. :O